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So You Want To Be An Airline Pilot No. 2 - The Big  
User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 21722 times:

The guy whose video was a hit in the pilot community because it shed light on many nitty gritty facts behind the profession put out a second one: So You Want To Be An Airline PIlot No. 2, The "Big" Money

http://www.youtube.com/user/delauren1228#p/a/u/0/KosfmCMIGhA

My question is, if what he is saying is true, how come there is this endless lineup of starry eyed kids getting into the flying business?

148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 21739 times:

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Thread starter):
how come there is this endless lineup of starry eyed kids getting into the flying business?

People like to fly. I think that's most of the story probably. I'd imagine that it's a combination of people who are naive and don't really know what they are getting into, and those who understand and are willing to put up with the low pay, long hours, etc. to fly.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineeldanno From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 21660 times:

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Thread starter):
My question is, if what he is saying is true, how come there is this endless lineup of starry eyed kids getting into the flying business?

Simple. If you love aviation, there's a good chance you want to spend your life doing it.

I had aspirations of entering the profession at one point, fully aware of the "real" life of an entry-level RJ FO. Didn't bother me - it meant being in the air. But, marrying my dream woman and having a family with her was more important to me. I didn't want to subject my family to being gone all of the time, taking a pay cut from what I was doing at the time, and paying off the training.

8 years later - no regrets. I get to go where I want on my own schedule with a 172, crash pad free.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 21618 times:

Quoting eldanno (Reply 2):

I had aspirations of entering the profession at one point, fully aware of the "real" life of an entry-level RJ FO. Didn't bother me - it meant being in the air. But, marrying my dream woman and having a family with her was more important to me. I didn't want to subject my family to being gone all of the time, taking a pay cut from what I was doing at the time, and paying off the training.

Very common story...I know many burgeoning pilots who have had the same bout with reality and in the end, the same lack of regret with their decision.

It seems it depends on priorities; If you want a family and a flying career, do the career first.



What the...?
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 21559 times:

The economics of being an airline pilot certainly are not what they used to be, and even back then, the guys earning $260-300k a year at DAL, UAL, AMR, etc, were a small fraction of all airline pilots.

But that doesn't change the fact that getting paid to fly airplanes is pretty cool.


User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 21434 times:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 4):
The economics of being an airline pilot certainly are not what they used to be, and even back then, the guys earning $260-300k a year at DAL, UAL, AMR, etc, were a small fraction of all airline pilots.

That depends on the airline. For most airlines in the US, this is unfortunately the case, for most of the 'majors' in Europe this is not true, terms are better than previous years..

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 4):
But that doesn't change the fact that getting paid to fly airplanes is pretty cool.

I agree. And it feels like having a paid holiday every week.


User currently offlineAerLingusA330 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21349 times:

Quoting eldanno (Reply 2):
I had aspirations of entering the profession at one point, fully aware of the "real" life of an entry-level RJ FO. Didn't bother me - it meant being in the air. But, marrying my dream woman and having a family with her was more important to me. I didn't want to subject my family to being gone all of the time, taking a pay cut from what I was doing at the time, and paying off the training.

That's very good to hear. I just finished discovering that same revelation to myself after dreaming of flying since I was knee high to a grasshopper. I was just completing my commercial rating after graduating college when I realized I didn't want to fly because of those same factors. I also am getting married this year, which greatly changed my perspective on flying for a career. It's really great to hear you were in the same boat and never regretted it. Thanks for sharing that, it really made my day.


-AerLingusA330



Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 21189 times:

Quoting eldanno (Reply 2):
I had aspirations of entering the profession at one point, fully aware of the "real" life of an entry-level RJ FO. Didn't bother me - it meant being in the air. But, marrying my dream woman and having a family with her was more important to me. I didn't want to subject my family to being gone all of the time, taking a pay cut from what I was doing at the time, and paying off the training.
Quoting AerLingusA330 (Reply 6):
That's very good to hear. I just finished discovering that same revelation to myself after dreaming of flying since I was knee high to a grasshopper. I was just completing my commercial rating after graduating college when I realized I didn't want to fly because of those same factors. I also am getting married this year, which greatly changed my perspective on flying for a career. It's really great to hear you were in the same boat and never regretted it. Thanks for sharing that, it really made my day.

Same here. Throughout Middle and most of High School I too wanted to be a pilot. I did not grasp the low pay right away but even then I knew I would start off making a low wage at a regional. But i always thought so what I make little money for 3-4 years then move to a major. But really you dont know that. Maybe you will be at that regional for 10 years or 20. Maybe you will get a job with NK but no DL etc.. Now I will be going to law school next year. Hopefully one day I will be able to fly my own airplane or join a flying club. I still think a job at a major airline would be an awesome career. Flying a 737-800 or 777 for AA or DL would be a dream. It is just so much can happen that, that dream will most likely not happen and there are just too many negatives associated with it. If I lived in Europe or Asia I think my story would be a bit different. But besides for the flying and some of the travel ALL other aspects of being an airline pilot just do not seem so great.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinemacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 21168 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Now I will be going to law school next year

I started off out of college as an FO. The Army came along and when I came back the market was full of high time multi-engine guys from the Air Force and I was so low of the lists, I gave up.

Then I went to law school.

I have always regretted both decisions. With flying I did something I loved; with law I did something I hated. Best of luck flymia, I suspect you're going to need it.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 20971 times:

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 8):
I started off out of college as an FO. The Army came along and when I came back the market was full of high time multi-engine guys from the Air Force and I was so low of the lists, I gave up.

Then I went to law school.

I have always regretted both decisions. With flying I did something I loved; with law I did something I hated. Best of luck flymia, I suspect you're going to need it.

Where you at an airline as an FO? When you talk about when you came back to the market I am a little confused. If you are deployed in the army I thought you cant lose your job.

Hopefully the regret is something I do not have. But I am in a much different situation I have not taken one hour of flight instruction. Every single commercial pilot I have ever talked to has said the same thing. My kids will not be pilots and I would not reccomend the job. I think being a pilot would be a fantastic job for someone who does not want to settle down and have a family etc.. These days with the way the job climate is that just seems like that is how it is.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 20928 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Maybe you will get a job with NK but no DL etc.. Now I will be going to law school next year.

According to some things I've read, law school isn't a better bet than becoming a pilot.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 20897 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
According to some things I've read, law school isn't a better bet than becoming a pilot.

The economy is bad right now, any type of job is hard to get. From FA to Pilot to lawyer to Police Officer. The only difference is becoming a pilot will always be a hard long road just as many jobs are. However pilot pay will always be low, job security will always be low, benefits will always be bad etc..



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 20857 times:

Interesting to read you law school types & young lawyer comments.

How does this recent article compare to your reality?

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-edu...-game?mod=edu-continuing_education

Note there is a couple YouTube equivalents, "So You Want to go to law school/become a lawyer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 20772 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Now I will be going to law school next year.

This is quite possibly the worst time in the last 50 years to be going to law school, honestly.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
I think being a pilot would be a fantastic job for someone who does not want to settle down and have a family etc..

No different with a legal career. There's a female associate in my firm who just had a baby last year and wanted to hold on to her career knowing full well there are tons of recent grads who would take her place in an instant. She somehow manages to put in 55-60 hours a week, fights traffic an hour each way, and has her 10 month old in expensive daycare from 8 am to 7 pm. She has missed most of her daughter's early life already and will no doubt continue to do so. Her husband is an Army surgeon, so no help there either.

[Edited 2011-01-11 14:37:29]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 20713 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 5):
I agree. And it feels like having a paid holiday every week.

Flying in Europe is much better. I know that because I started my career there. But here in the US it's a life of 800-900 hours per year with 700 landings. Fatiguing. The rules in Europe are far better.

But there will be pressure there too from the low-cost carriers. Life is not so grand for those pilots.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 20651 times:

My targets:

#1 Earning money by flying an airplane, and writing about it.

If #1 fails then:

#2 Earning enough money with doing something else, so I can afford flying an airplane without making money with it.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 20618 times:

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 15):
#2 Earning enough money with doing something else, so I can afford flying an airplane without making money with it.

#2 is far more likely, perhaps not in Europe though.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinemacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 20572 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Where you at an airline as an FO? When you talk about when you came back to the market I am a little confused. If you are deployed in the army I thought you cant lose your job.

1968-69. In those days you were guaranteed a job when you returned only if you were drafted or deployed from a reserve unit and even then it was always a huge risk. I knew several guys who came back from Viet Nam, went to get their old job and were told to buzz off. Only thing who could do was sue the former employer and public opinion at the time was not the best for guys coming back suing anyone. Most just went and found another job.

I went through ROTC in college and was deemed to have volunteered. Thus no guarantee.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1727 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 20466 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Now I will be going to law school next year

Then a physician friend said either get into medical school and earn a living as a doctor, or law school and earn a living from the medical establishment.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20350 times:

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 12):
Interesting to read you law school types & young lawyer comments.

How does this recent article compare to your reality?

It is true there are way too many law schools out there and it is hard to get a job. But I know this it is MUCH harder getting a job as a pilot. And I also know that it is hard for just about anyone to get any type of job right now.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 12):
Note there is a couple YouTube equivalents, "So You Want to go to law school/become a lawyer"

I have seen them. They are pretty funny.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
This is quite possibly the worst time in the last 50 years to be going to law school, honestly.

I agree with you. But the same could be said about being a pilot. And the career future and advancement in becoming a pilot is no where near the same calibur as going to law school.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
No different with a legal career. There's a female associate in my firm who just had a baby last year and wanted to hold on to her career knowing full well there are tons of recent grads who would take her place in an instant.

Of course there are times in most jobs where you will have to work hard and long hours. Hopefully this is done when you are young and do not have a child. The difference is this lawyer has the opperitunity to make a lot more money then any pilot will ever make and also have a much better schedule for family life. Most pilots will always have a hard schedule until they stop flying or are in the top of senority.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5051 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 20075 times:

I think the big problem is that in this "Information Age" the manure we all went through to get this job is much more apparent. It was always there, but now with the advent of the Internet, we will hear about it!

Everyone I fly with has the same story. We all paid the price, we all stuck with it (that's the big one), now we all reap the rewards. Yes, in some respects it is not the same as the Good Old Days. Some ways worse, some way a lot better.

Present, starting salary at Air Canada is about $50,000. Not good, considering the effort and money it took to get here. But it gets better ... third year pay is about $100,000. When I started 25 years ago, it was $30,000, and yes it got better. When my Dad started at Trans-Canada Air Lines in 1956, his salary was $151.00 a month as a DC-4M North Star First Officer ... when he retired he was making over $300,000 a year as a B747-400 Captain ... yeah, it got better!

But that's the trick, stick it out through the manure, and it gets much much better. Unfortunately, there are many many stories of guys and gals that gave up too soon.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJordanC From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19273 times:

I too am glad I never gave up on my dream of flight. I had my first flight at 14 and have been in love with aviation ever since. However, I enlisted in the Army at age 17 and now, 32 years later at age 49, I am an Army lawyer who finally got my private pilot's license on December 7th last year. My military career came first and the flying much later, but that is the beauty of aviation - you can learn at any time or age. I too have no regrets, other than not getting my license earlier, and am looking forward to more ratings. Airline pilots, be they regional or major carrier, will always be my heroes, and I still feel like a kid at a candy store every time I'm in an airport. Best wishes, flymia, and don't ever give up on your dreams or let someone persuade you otherwise. As longhauler said - stick it out and don't give up.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19148 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
But the same could be said about being a pilot.

What about the great pilot shortage just around the corner?   



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19087 times:

Airlines? Why does everyone think the airline world is the way to go? Come to corporate aviation. Money is as good, job is usually better. I for one look forward to going to work every day. Isn't that worth it?

User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18884 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 23):
Airlines? Why does everyone think the airline world is the way to go? Come to corporate aviation. Money is as good, job is usually better. I for one look forward to going to work every day. Isn't that worth it?

Been there, done that. I didn't like having no protection should I make some stupid ass mistake, lose my medical, etc. I did enjoy the quality of life though. Went to the regionals, enjoyed having the protections I didn't have at my corporate job, but hated the quality of life.. Went to the fracs, had the best of both worlds. Then I got furloughed. If I want to fly for a living I'd end up back at a regional, this time with a youngster at home. Add to it, I'm worth more than the starting pay at the regionals. I bring more than $25 an hour worth of experience to the cockpit. I'm done until I get a recall, IF I get a recall.


25 flymia : Also unfortunately these days there are too many people who also just are out of luck. Join and airline here and it shut downs, get furloughed here,
26 planemaker : There are a couple of things that will keep the "pilot shortage" largely at bay in the West save for a few spikes in demand here and there. In North
27 hz747300 : Come to HK then! You can fly for Dragonair, Cathay, or Hong Kong Airlines... But I am not sure if they are hiring. The bulk of the pilots are Australi
28 faro : Of those who 'give it up too soon', what proportion would have done so after a gut-wrenching landing with marginal minima, wind shear or blizzard con
29 Post contains images cbphoto : That is only half the story Many pilots have opportunities to fly, whether it be flight instructing or night cargo. Fact is, 99% of all the young pil
30 mauriceb : If youre from Europe, u need youre university master to be able to fly at the Hong Kong based airline, and the salary seems to be really poor...i hea
31 PH-BFA : Not the correct topic for this discussion, but what manufacturer will go there then? Apart from embraer(who is only 'studying' this idea) there is no
32 mauriceb : None. Apart from some airlines like Ryanair, almost everyone is against it. Technology isn't good enough yet to be able to ''thrust'' the systems...
33 planemaker : It is since it responds to the previous posts on pilot shortages. Yes, studying an idea is normal before actually carrying out the idea. The Phenom 3
34 PH-BFA : I am talking about FFS training, which already accrues to the biggest part of your ATPL flight training costs Or before actually not carrying out the
35 planemaker : But I was clearly not... I said "learning to fly" - that is PPL. It is feasible (there are already some commercial SP ops) and it is certainly desire
36 PH-BFA : ppl flying has very little in common with flying passenger planes(apart from he basics); ie you actually 'learn' to fly on (large) commercial planes
37 planemaker : But that is not the point that I am making. No jets, yet, just TPs.
38 thrufru : Do what you love, and all the pieces will fall into place. I'd wanted to fly from early childhood. I was obsessed with airplanes, aviation and travel.
39 CharlieNoble : It has to be better than sitting in an office reading email and listening to your arteries harden LOL. Had my eyesight been better...
40 saab2000 : Your arteries harden in the airplane too. There are times when I don't get up from my seat for several hours. So you're really hurting circulation to
41 PH-BFA : I agree, however not in the time frame he is stating. Why not? Simply because regulations are not ready for it and there is simply no manufacturer wi
42 saab2000 : We'll see. I have read that Embraer is doing a fair amount of R&D on this very issue. Nevertheless, I still would like to see numbers on what this
43 PH-BFA : I agree, especially if you take a look at RJ F/O's in the US and the amount of money they'are getting paid... I think (and know for some specific air
44 CharlieNoble : Most jobs suck. That's why they pay you to be there. But, I understand your point. Pilot pay is a double edged sword. If starting pay were substantia
45 Post contains images DeltaRules : All the new pilots fresh out of flight school won't have the 1500 the government wants when it hits... I have a friend who was a somewhat low-time pi
46 Aaron747 : And take on that absurd cadet programme with low salaries and no housing assistance, not to mention a hybrid type rating that is no good elsewhere in
47 planemaker : What, exactly, are those regulations that simply are not ready for it? And why, in 10-15 years, won't those regulations not be ready? I am not sure i
48 saab2000 : Why do you assume that RJs are any different from an Airbus or a Boeing? Except for size, they are not substantially different. I fly a CRJ and have a
49 Aaron747 : Given all the problems with flaps and underwhelming performance at high gross weights, I'd be inclined to agree with you!
50 Post contains images planemaker : I don't assume... but I do restrict my comments to RJs for a couple of reasons, one being that many people on here can fathom an SP mainliner... so I
51 Post contains images saab2000 : I'll drink to that! Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks who equate size of airplane with ease of operation. Tomorrow I'm scheduled for a 13 hour
52 Post contains images cbphoto : Yeah...at the end of the day, all they require are a few buttons to be pushed, just the Airbus/Boeing carry a slightly greater responsibility for eac
53 planemaker : The disparity in incomes are really just out of whack and it seems that no one has the guts in the industry to really try to do something about it. G
54 longhauler : That has always been the case. At AC, the DC-9 drivers were the hardest worked in the company ... a distinction presently held by the EMJ crews. Howe
55 Post contains images Goldenshield : Well, if it was still flying, I'd say the Concorde. But not because it goes faster, or more elegant. Rather, compared to a lot of planes of the era--
56 planemaker : The same criteria is in place with most airlines. While crew cost per seat is much lower on the 747 than on a 1900, it doesn't make sense that a 747
57 Post contains images CharlieNoble : Probably true...but I was thinking more along the lines of the big transports. That's what I would have liked to do! Yep. That and the use of "flight
58 apodino : The one issue I see with SP RJ's is....if the pilot becomes incapacitated then what? We have seen a few issues in recent years on airline flights wher
59 413X3 : Pilot pay is low, because just like a lot of professions, they take advantage of you, "paying your dues" as they say. Even doctors go through this, re
60 longhauler : This is one of the main issues to be overcome. People are talking on here like it is some cockpit construction problem ... design the cockpit so that
61 PH-BFA : I completely agree. Again I agree. If human handling is still involved and needed in the actual 'flying' (ie the airplane cannot autonomously fly and
62 planemaker : Yes, the C5s and C17s are not going to be replaced any time soon. First, the number of pilot incapacitations are statistically zero given the number
63 longhauler : You're kidding, right? Air Canada, which is not a large airline, has had 34 pilot incapacitation's over the last 10 years. Their ages ranged from 32
64 Aaron747 : Medically this is not necessarily the case - if a pilot were to have a serious sudden cardiac arrythmia like ventricular fibrillation, they'd have at
65 planemaker : No, I am not kidding. And your AC stat seemed very high so I checked Canada's TSB regs and this is what I found they said... ... and there are no inc
66 longhauler : It is all internal .. but the few that do become public, become very public. That's why the TSB may not be your best source of reference. The referen
67 413X3 : But it's more about responsibility, you are responsible for much larger group of people flying a big jumbo. And the more experienced you are the bett
68 Stabilator : I'm currently going to school for pilot trainig. I pay no attention to these doom and gloom animated youtube videos about how shitty the life of a reg
69 planemaker : Ok... but AC has seriously broken the regs. I didn't need to since the Air Accident Investigation Unit of the Irish Department of Transport handled t
70 flymia : That is exactly the type of attitude you need to get far in the pilot world these days. Your going in the right direction. Of course those jobs flyin
71 longhauler : This is a very interesting concept, and I would think that "today's" technology is more than adequate to do just that. But, what if the pilot incapac
72 Stabilator : I don't see having a family anytime soon, though I know things change. Just that it is not a profession I would choose, after I've grown up with my f
73 413X3 : It doesn't matter how much total you carry, but the larger number on your plane at the time. Passengers get on board a huge airplane expecting the pi
74 apodino : I agree. Because the risk with a single pilot is greater than with two pilots, it is logical to assume that insurance premiums would go up with only
75 nwafan20 : I find all this back and forth arguing really quite hilarious. I mean come on guys! They are PAYING you to fly! I'm a current flight student at Wester
76 planemaker : The challenge/response would be able to be handled by the FMC. That part is actually quite simple. A bit more thought would have to go into programmi
77 longhauler : I agree. I can't see how it can be done right now, but I imagine it could be. To me innovation is not about solving a problem, that's the easy part,
78 Post contains images CharlieNoble : I wonder if an alternative to two fully qualified pilots is having one pilot and one "Assistant/Systems Monitor Guy" whose job it is to keep an eye o
79 Aaron747 : In what sense? Outside of genetic testing which is still prohibitively expensive, diagnostics for potential cardiac risk have not changed appreciably
80 flymia : You have a good attitude and the passion that is needed to fly! I wish you good luck, However in aviation the money does not always follow. Nothing i
81 BMI727 : ...with student debt that may top $200,000.
82 planemaker : It is possible today. One only has to look at Google's autonomous car program that has a fleet of cars that has driven over 1,000 miles each without
83 Aaron747 : A hand-held heart rate or blood oxygen monitor does not carry anywhere near the prognostic value of a 12-lead signal averaged ECG. Unless you're goin
84 longhauler : I cant imagine what crew wages they are using, but let me run some numbers past you. When I fly YYZ-TLV, we carry three pilots, Captain, First Office
85 Post contains links and images planemaker : I suggest you watch this TEDMED talk from 2009 by Dr. Eric Topol... http://www.tedmed.com/videos#Eric_Topol_at_TEDMED_2009 No 12-lead signals are req
86 Aaron747 : Well yes they still are - because he's talking about doctors being able to receive vital sign data on their smartphones being sent by patients hooked
87 flymia : Oh and pilots do not accumulate student debt either? There are also plenty of state law schools out there that would cost around $48,000 for all thre
88 Post contains images planemaker : You didn't watch the whole video... 12 lead signals are indeed not required.
89 BMI727 : Not of that magnitude.
90 longhauler : I do appreciate your efforts, but some things aren't adding up. First of all, how can Aircraft Rents & Ownership be only 6.7% of the operating co
91 26point2 : What protection? There are many out of work regional pilots as well. Although not a safety net a good corporate job will provide "Loss of License (Me
92 PH-BFA : Really? That would mean all airlines today would look like, and operate like, Ryanair.. And why do even small air taxi companies, which fly SP certif
93 BMI727 : Airlines will cut expenses that don't justify themselves. The larger, heavier premium class seats justify themselves with higher fares. Food service
94 PH-BFA : Yes that might be a factor in their decision, which still makes you wonder, if SP ops are (nearly) equally safe as multi pilot ops for a certain type
95 flymia : Two things: One there are plenty of public law schools out there, so a lawyer might only have $45,000 in debt which is less then a pilot would have.
96 Post contains images cbphoto : Ya..but you get to fly a bigger airplane Although I will say, while the pay at both NK or SY is pretty bad, the QOL will definitely make up for it. I
97 Post contains images planemaker : The ATA 6.7% Aircraft Rents & Ownership figure is the percentage of the total airline costs... or, to put it another way, the total costs to run
98 PH-BFA : No one cares how many engines a plane has(heck most people I ask don't even know how many engines his/her plane had...), but psychologically it will
99 mig21umd : Read Ernest K- Gann, Fate is the Hunter. This novel / autobiography was true then (1930-1950) just as it is true today. Unfortunately the aviation ind
100 planemaker : And in 10-15 years time most people won't even know how many pilots his/her plane had. Reality proves otherwise... thousands of pax already fly on SP
101 PH-BFA : It still doesn't answer my question, what will be so drastically different then? Apart from automated taxi and automated take off, the rest can alrea
102 planemaker : That even though a pilot will be on board... he won't be required. Not yet... there isn't a commercial aircraft that can go from gate to gate without
103 PH-BFA : According to yourself, airlines would not do that, as they will cut all costs if possible. Not requiring pilot means he should not be on board. Yes I
104 flymia : You seriously believe that? I want to see an autopilot land US 1549 or United 232. Please no computer will have the input a pilot and preferbily two
105 planemaker : He will not be on board eventually. It will in that pilots now have to actively manage/fly a flight... in the future they won't. Nothing is a fact un
106 BMI727 : Funny you should say that. The aircraft was in a state where it could have returned to a runway, and a computer could have assessed that faster than
107 flymia : NK does not have first, a big seat upfront is not first. None of those airlines have true first class products like you find at UA or AA. FL, F9 is m
108 Post contains links BMI727 : Ntsb - US 1549 Could Have Made LGA, But Ditch OK (by Stitch May 4 2010 in Civil Aviation) That is the real challenge. Why not build a GPS database of
109 planemaker : Just what are "true" first class products? And, as I pointed out, VX have amenities that even the legacies don't have. In any case, the point stands
110 Mir : A couple, if I'm not mistaken. Pilot intervention was necessary. Yes. Fighters. With ejection seats. There is a difference. Computers still screw up
111 BMI727 : And technology is just going to stand still? And, out of curiosity, how many military aircraft have actually crashed due to flight control computer f
112 Aaron747 : Just curious - since the capability has certainly been there throughout the program, why is the Space Shuttle still flown by the pilot to touchdown?
113 flymia : Interesting thank you for that link. You are right a computer would have figured that out but I dont think it would have been the right decision sinc
114 cbphoto : I am sorry, but I am going to have to go here. Have you ever flown an airplane? Do you hold a pilots license? Even if you fly a fancy RJ with Autopil
115 ytz : I fully agree with Planemaker. I'm an aerospace engineer with a PPL. Technology will allow SP operation someday. We can disagree with the timeline. Ma
116 ytz : From a strictly control systems perspective. Yes. Autonomous car operations are more difficult than autonomous airplane operations. A car operating o
117 2H4 : Regarding the public perception of single-pilot (or no-pilot) operations, I suspect the first step in automating commercial aircraft will involve car
118 rolfen : It's not like you don't get the low pay, long hours in other jobs. Between choosing between working an underpaid, say, programming job, and working a
119 rolfen : I believe humans have an edge in "creative thinking". They can alter their processes as they go, and "learn" on the fly. They can have some kind of s
120 AngelMonsterAl : Being an airline pilot has to be the most awesome thing that you have ever done in your life,most of the things that he said in the video are not trut
121 ytz : Except that when you are talking red (or even yellow) page emergencies (as is being debated here), there is very little room for creative thinking. A
122 SEPilot : I do not think single pilot operations-especially in RJ's-is a good idea for a number of reasons, but the most important one is that it is the trainin
123 flymia : Are you saying there will be one pilot of LAX-SYD flights? A bit different then flying over JFK and densely populated highways. And last time I check
124 cbphoto : I don't disagree that their are some extremely advanced computer systems out their, but can you program a computer to think outside the box? Can you
125 planemaker : Nope, none. Every Airbus needs a computer, as does the 787, to fly the aircraft. There is no direct control surface link with FBW (or engine control
126 m11stephen : I have never heard someone complain about making $52 an hour before... That is for certain.
127 saab2000 : One issue nobody addresses here is how an airplane will be released from a gate and get to the runway and through the departure procedures. And taxi t
128 SEPilot : I must disagree with you here. No matter how automated flight becomes, I believe there ultimately needs to be a human overseeing the whole thing beca
129 2H4 : It's not the same as working 40 hours a week and making $52 each hour you're on duty.
130 planemaker : The technology already exists. The first pax SP aircraft will probably come from EMB for a couple of reasons... 1. They are already working on "reduc
131 Post contains images cbphoto : That is exactly what I was trying to get at. How can you get a computer to do something that has never happened before and that it is not programed t
132 Aaron747 : What in the world are you talking about? Talk to 10 pilots and none of them will tell you that's what they actually make when all is said and done. F
133 planemaker : There is software that is able to "reason". Yes. Yes. The database is already created. There was a slew of issues but the bottom line is that the pil
134 Aaron747 : Then what's the point? Had the same thing happened with maintenance personnel giving incorrect information to a computer, same result... Reasons unli
135 BMI727 : That isn't implausible at all. And beyond that, such an accident would be very unlikely these days, not least because of the increase in use of elect
136 planemaker : That's not how it works... we've moved on considerably from almost 30 years ago. NASA politics and SP commercial flights are two unrelated matters. T
137 BMI727 : Yes, but considering the number of ditchings of commercial airliners, such equipment would in all likelihood be nothing more than dead weight.
138 Post contains links PH-BFA : Planemaker, all your reasoning about the technology 'already being available' and arguments like ''it can be done', lacks one important aspect: operat
139 apodino : Not too long ago, there was a runway incursion in BOS between an Aer Lingus A330 and a USAirways A320 (I believe it was an A320, it could have been a
140 planemaker : Yes, I agree with you. However, size is increasingly being reduced and in 10-15 years it wouldn't be a weight factor The technology for NextGen is in
141 flymia : You do understand the pilots only make money for time the engines are running. So if a pilot is flying MIA-JFK-MIA he will get paid for 6 hours of wo
142 m11stephen : Yes... I fully understand that. The person in this video stated that after he divided the total amount he made by the total time he was on duty he "o
143 Mir : It'll take a while before I'll feel comfortable on the plane that is reliant on computers to maintain its stability. Unless you give me an ejection s
144 Post contains images ytz : Again....Air Forces all over the world seem to have no issue getting pilots trained to operate SP combat aircraft. In fact the JSF, does not even cal
145 rolfen : I'm sure it can be made to do that, it will only require much more complex software then what they are fitted with nowadays. Also note this incident
146 cbphoto : Totally not trying to pick a fight with you, its just interesting seeing all the sides of this discussion. You keep bringing up SP combat aircraft, e
147 planemaker : It isn't a maneuverability issue but a drag issue (though already on the L1011 we had active gust control and it is much further developed on the 787
148 Post contains images ytz : But they are. Just look at how much crew size has been reduced. The C-130 went from a 4 man cockpit (2 pilots, Nav and FE) to a 2 man cockpit for the
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