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Lufthansa Lobbying Against EK To Start Berlin  
User currently offlineEK156 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19741 times:

Lufthansa is adamant on not letting EK expand into Germany. With the new Berlin Airport opening in 2012, already Berlin Govt has welcomed EK but the Federal Govt is being pressured by Lufthansa not to open the doors!

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/lufth...many-says-berlin-mayor-373861.html

191 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19593 times:

Has been discussed in depth before. The article is not very informative either and heavily biased. EK is not restricted in Germany but has ample traffic rights to four vities. HAM was not mentioned in the article.

EK can change the number of frequencies and the aircraft size to all four destinations it serves in Germany, so where is a restriction here?

The present bi-lateral between the UAE and Germany allows 4 cities and that's what EK has. There is no need for Germany to renegotiate the bi-lateral at this time.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19461 times:

It´s an "old time" protectionism that shows up ...
There would be not too much wrong with it if LH would serve the customers to/from Berlin better by offering flights with their own a/c...
But obviously they don´t intend to do that.
Just making sure they build obstacles for competitors without investing any own resource !

I could understand if Air Berlin would try to prevent EK from entering the Berlin market as AB does serve TXL-DXB.

LH is not willing to cater for the BER (TXL/SXF) - DXB market other than feeding via their FRA or MUC hubs. As long as there´s no competition it works fine for LH.
AB´s non-stop TXL-DXB is not really much of competition for LH in that particular case as it´s not even a daily flight.

So, LH is trying to block off EK as long as possible but does not put itself into a better position in good time when it´s still likely that EK will arrive in Berlin anyway

What they are trying now is to find political backing to influence the bilateral negotiations that are due...
LH has always stated that the Berlin market is not sufficient to warrant it´s own "long range" flights. It´s everybody´s guess how much truth is in it...
It is more profitable (for LH) if they can force Berlin passengers to travel via FRA/MUC rather than offering non-stops from/to Berlin. So, they just try to keep the "status quo" as long as possible.

[Edited 2011-01-16 23:57:19]

The fact that German carriers do not use all the traffic rights they have to/via UAE is neither the UAE government´s nor is it EK´s fault ...
Btw. EK does not serve STR but HAM. It´s QR that serves STR ...


[Edited 2011-01-17 00:11:03]


I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19342 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 2):
LH is not willing to cater for the BER (TXL/SXF) - DXB market other than feeding via their FRA or MUC hubs

There is hardly a BER/DXB market that would sustain a daily flight. What EK wants are the beyond destinations, feeding DXB from as many departure points in germany as possible. once they have established STR and BER, they will ask for CGN NUE HAJ.

EK's problem is that they have to give little in return, but bilaterals are always , at least shouls be., balanced.

If EK wants to serve BER, they would have to give up HAM or DUS. It is also rubbish when a senator in charge of economic affairs says that BER is underserved. QR serves BER as well as STR which simply means that no potential DXB passenger is forced to fly LH, EK can interline with AB to get their pax from BER to FRA DUS MUC-.

The allegation that LH is protected by the German government is a joke., If that would be the case, the German government would not have imposed the departure tax.

Footnore - concerning cargo traffic., EK was even granted a fifth destination - HHN - they have transferred these flights back to FRA meanwhile.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19067 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
The allegation that LH is protected by the German government is a joke., If that would be the case, the German government would not have imposed the departure tax.

LH doesn't seem to be too perturbed by the new departure tax, given its announcement to hire 4000 new staff in 2011. Could it be that EK's further expansion into Germany (BER, STR, CGN, god knows where else) might threaten those jobs in a way that the departure tax was never going to?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18920 times:

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 4):
LH doesn't seem to be too perturbed by the new departure tax

Well, that was not the point I made. Germany enjoys a healthy economic recovery and there will be new slots available with the opening of the new runway at FRA later this year. One A380 alone means 400 additional jobs and so far they have not retired any 744s. The fact that a company successfully copes with an additonal burden still means that it is an additonal burden which other carriers do not have.

The headline of this thread is wrong. Where is the evidence that LH is lobbying here? In fact, EK is lobbying for additonal rights beyond the rights they have under the existing agreement. The Berlin state government lobbies on behalf of EK and at the same time, AB has announced direct flights to DXB. These flights are more than enough to cater for any traffic on that route. So, where's the point of beeing "underserved".

The juicy part of the story is that the senator (which is the same as a minister) of a German state who receives his salary and benefits from the German taxpayers lobbies on behalf of a foreign corporation. Honi soit qui mal y pense, or, in English, one could get funny ideas about that.



.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18848 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):

There is hardly a BER/DXB market that would sustain a daily flight. What EK wants are the beyond destinations, feeding DXB from as many departure points in germany as possible. once they have established STR and BER, they will ask for CGN NUE HAJ.

Willkommen zur Partei, meine deutschen Freunde.

Hope the German government will take the same stance as the Canadian government.

You guys don't have any military logistic bases in the UAE do you?  



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18742 times:

He he, no we don't, Our transit base for Afghanistan is further north.

I understand the position the Canadian government has. However, in contrast to Canada, EK and EY enjoy ample traffic rights to and from Germany. I can only epeat again and again, EK has four destination, using up the full allotment and if they want to increase capacity on all routes they can do it.

Between EK, EY and QR, FRA,MUC,DUS,HAM BER and STR already have direct flights to the main Gulf transit airports.

LH serves DXB and AUH and German Cargo uses SHJ as a hub. Plus, AB and several German charter carriers have and use rights to the UAE. Most of the latter's passengers are German tourists. Which ever way you look at it, the UAE is extrenmely well served with their traffic rights to and from Germany.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18498 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Where is the evidence that LH is lobbying here?

Harald Wolf says they are and I'm inclined to believe he has certain insights into the process.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
The juicy part of the story is that the senator of a German state who receives his salary and benefits from the German taxpayers lobbies on behalf of a foreign corporation.

He's a Berlin state senator, which means he receives his salary and benefits from *Berlin* taxpayers. He's not lobbying for Germany, he's lobbying for Berlin.

There's nothing scandulous about Berlin lobbying for better slot uptake at the spiffy new airport they're building and better routes from Berlin to the rest of the world -- not just Dubai, but further down the line. That the company wanting to fly this routes happens to be a foreign-owned company should be beside the point -- at the end of the day, if EK gets the rights, Berlin wins. What happens in FRA and MUC is of no concern to Berlin's state senators, and nor should it be. And if AB is worried about the competition, then they should start offering a half-decent long-haul product.

Whether any of that fits into the somewhat outdated framework of bilateral agreements between nations is another question.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18409 times:

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 8):
He's a Berlin state senator, which means he receives his salary and benefits from *Berlin* taxpayers. He's not lobbying for Germany, he's lobbying for Berlin.

Berlin could not last a month without heavy subsidies from the federal government and cross subsidies by the states of Hesse, Bavaria and BaWue - they call it "Laenderfinanzausgleich". hence, it's German taxpayers money. Almost half the Berlin population is on the dole, they don't pay taxes anyhow.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 8):
Harald Wolf says they are and I'm inclined to believe he has certain insights into the process.

Fact is, he is lobbying on behalf of a foreign carrier.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 8):
There's nothing scandulous about Berlin lobbying for better slot uptake at the spiffy new airport they're building and

besides the scandalous fact that they are reducing capacity at Berlin airports, runways from 6 to 2 the reduction might even go further if by populistic demand simoultaneous take offs will not be allowed. In that case, the worry is not to fill empty slots but to distribute scarce and restricted slots.



Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 8):
Whether any of that fits into the somewhat outdated framework of bilateral agreements between nations is another question.

As long as "open skies" is not a fact in ALL worldwide markets, we will have to cope with this "outdated" system. Germany is not obliged to update a bilateral agreement with the UAE when the EU commission is taking over that responsibility in the near future. We will see how the agreement between the UAE and the EU works out and if EK and EY are really doing themselvs a favour.



Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 8):
And if AB is worried about the competition,

I have not heard anything on this topic from either LH and AB, as I said before, the headline is wrong. AB could make an interline agreement with EK feeding traffic into their system at DUS, FRA, MUC and DXB. May be they even have such an agreement.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18326 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
Berlin could not last a month without heavy subsidies from the federal government and cross subsidies by the states of Hesse, Bavaria and BaWue - they call it "Laenderfinanzausgleich". hence, it's German taxpayers money.

While true, this is entirely beside the point. Berlin's finance senator has defined responsibilities to his constituents. This does not include Fraport, Lufthansa, Flughafen München GmbH, or anybody else who doesn't live within the state borders.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
Fact is, he is lobbying on behalf of a foreign carrier.

... to achieve a goal that is widely acknowledged to be in the interest of said constituents.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
AB could make an interline agreement with EK feeding traffic into their system at DUS, FRA, MUC and DXB. May be they even have such an agreement.

Yes, they've been interlining for a couple of years as far as I know. Unfortunately these flights all involve connections in DUS, FRA, or MUC, which is not particularly convenient for anybody except AB.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
they are reducing capacity at Berlin airports, runways from 6 to 2 the reduction might even go further if by populistic demand simoultaneous take offs will not be allowed. In that case, the worry is not to fill empty slots but to distribute scarce and restricted slots

The "6 to 2" runways thing has been debunked so many times, PanHAM. BER is not going to be approaching LHR's traffic any time soon.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18287 times:

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 10):

While true, this is entirely beside the point. Berlin's finance senator has defined responsibilities to his constituents.

Why does he lobby on behalf of a foreign carrier when a carrier domiciled in Berlin is serving that route? The AB BER-DXB is fully sufficient to cater for any local traffic requirements and if AB signs an interline agreement with EK to feed into that carriers network at DXB - fine. There is absolutely no need for EK to enter that market from the local consumer point of view. But as I have said before, if EK wants it that badly, they can swap HAM for BER. That would be within the current agreement, I suppose.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 10):
to achieve a goal that is widely acknowledged to be in the interest of said constituents.

certainly not in the interest of local corporate taxpayers and major tenants of the new BBI.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18213 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
The AB BER-DXB is fully sufficient to cater for any local traffic requirements and if AB signs an interline agreement with EK to feed into that carriers network at DXB - fine.

If you're thinking point-to-point, then maybe. EK isn't, Wolf isn't, and neither am I. It's all about onward travel. AB does TXL-DXB 3x weekly and doesn't have the planes or the cash to expand further and doesn't pay the lion's share of its tax in Germany anyway. LH isn't interested. If you were Berlin's finance senator, what would you be doing? I suppose he could always use some of Hessen's, BW's, and Bavaria's money to finance some plane purchases for AB...


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18109 times:

I'm from Berlin and I believe it is a damn shame that EK is not allowed to fly here. Not only from the enthusiasts pov, but also from an economic one. Berlin has a very weak economy, based on the size of its population and compared to other cities in Germany. An EK access with one-stop connection to many interesting cities in the world would put us on the map, for more tourists and as a better business location. If I was the mayor or a senator, I would call the federals (chancellor and transportation minister) every day, until they allow the UAE more rights. Then, EK could come and I would call AUH until EY comes in as well. They are both solid Airbus customers, they employ Germans, they would generate some competition. AB and LH certainly are considered to be German companies, but they don't only employ Germans and they buy enough planes from outside Germany/Europe.

The days of protectionism need to end. If someone wants to go directly from BER to DXB, he has only the choice between AB and AB. Why not allow in EK? Better service, lower price. Are people in HAM, FRA, MUC, and DUS better than people from Berlin? German constitution says no body shall have a disadvantage due to his heritage.


User currently offlinePA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18015 times:

1. Any bilateral agreement that doesn't reflect "Open Skies" is protectionism more or less. Therefore, the Federal Governments decision not to grant additional rights, is protectionism towards LH, even though it just involves the rejection of amending the current bilateral.

2. EK didn't just get 5th Freedom Rights out of generiosity. The mentioned agreement grants them these rights. Back in the 80s, it was LH that wanted to accomodate pax beyond DXB. EK now simply uses reciprocal rights...


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17720 times:

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 13):
If you were Berlin's finance senator, what would you be doing?

I would take care of Berlin's finances, which are in bad shape.

I can only second PanHam. Germany doesn't want to change the bilateral, period.
EK will get more and more problems like this in other countries because Dubai is not able to offer what other big countries are able to offer to Dubai.

Quoting PA101 (Reply 15):
1. Any bilateral agreement that doesn't reflect "Open Skies" is protectionism more or less. Therefore, the Federal Governments decision not to grant additional rights, is protectionism towards LH, even though it just involves the rejection of amending the current bilateral.

There is protectionism all over the world with only a few exceptions. Airlines have to live and to deal with it. They and certain states should not behave like beeing in the kindergarden.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5260 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17685 times:

I just hope one day the whole world is open skies, and let the best carriers win.

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17633 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 17):
Germany doesn't want to change the bilateral, period.

Period? All of Germany? No, there are certainly enough people here in Germany that want that to be changed.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 17):
I would take care of Berlin's finances, which are in bad shape.

Right. Getting EK to Berlin would be a helpful step for that.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 17):
EK will get more and more problems like this in other countries because Dubai is not able to offer what other big countries are able to offer to Dubai.

What are they supposed to do? Buy India, to have a bigger home market that they can give others access to? Their country is the size that it is and they can't offer any more than that.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 17):
There is protectionism all over the world with only a few exceptions. Airlines have to live and to deal with it. They and certain states should not behave like beeing in the kindergarden.

Why Kindergarten? They are allowed to complain and lobby against protectionism if it is in their interest.

Some day the UAE might economically retaliate for this.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 19):
I just hope one day the whole world is open skies, and let the best carriers win.

Agreed.


User currently offlinePA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17632 times:

@Hirnie:
That we have protectionism all over the world doesn't mean that each single protective measure is therefore justified. The current bilateral between Germany and the UAE is somewhat protective, and the main reason for the Governments efforts to keep it the way it is, is LHs worry about more EK services to Germany!


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17533 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
Period? All of Germany? No, there are certainly enough people here in Germany that want that to be changed

Yep and there are a lot of peolpe against Stuttgard 21 and against the new departure routes out of BBI and against Castor and against and against.... We have got an administration which was elected in a democratic way, so they shall decide.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
Why Kindergarten? They are allowed to complain and lobby against protectionism if it is in their interest

Look how the UAE behaved when EK wanted more landing rights in Canada.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
Right. Getting EK to Berlin would be a helpful step for that

Then the senator of finances should tell the senator of transport. Wrong resort.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
What are they supposed to do? Buy India, to have a bigger home market that they can give others access to? Their country is the size that it is and they can't offer any more than that.

They are not supposed to, but I think this is what will happen. Dubai is small with a small local market. They have to deal with it, and if other countries don't want their airline to fly to any city they have to deal with it as well and make money another way.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17410 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 22):
Yep and there are a lot of peolpe against Stuttgard 21 and against the new departure routes out of BBI and against Castor and against and against.... We have got an administration which was elected in a democratic way, so they shall decide.

But unlike these people, I am actually for something.

The government you can forget, they only do what lobbyists and the Bild-paper tell them to do.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 22):
They are not supposed to, but I think this is what will happen. Dubai is small with a small local market. They have to deal with it, and if other countries don't want their airline to fly to any city they have to deal with it as well and make money another way.

Dubai is small, but the market in this case is the airtraffic Germany-Dubai. If others get all the rights to DXB, then they can give EK all the rights ex DXB. It goes back and forth.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17256 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
EK's problem is that they have to give little in return, but bilaterals are always , at least shouls be., balanced.

This is not a trivial topic. Bilaterals should ensure rules for fair play and it is entirely possible that EK does not qualify.

But on the balanced topic and the reliance on beyond traffic, I would like to point out that every time I get on LH between the US and Frankfurt, at least a third of the airplane is going to India. Beyond a matter of degree, there is no difference on how LH and EK explore the power of their hubs to gain third-country traffic.



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User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17156 times:

Some of you don't understand what a bilateral is used for. This is not plane protectionism.


The bilateral grants both countries airlines a defined number of flights to a defined number of cities. The bilateral should be economical fair for both countries.

You can fill only a specific number of seats between all the German airports and DXB. These seats are given equally to Germany ( LH & AB ) and Dubai ( EK ). Following the rule the market should be saturated.


But EK is not happy with the bilateral, because they want more than the O&D traffic between Germany and DXB, they want many more flights and more destinations, because they are relying on these feeder flights for their unrealistic idea of an A380 super-hub.

So the German govt. has to decide if they want to renegotiate the bilateral, but they have no reason to do so as the Germany - DXB market is fully saturated and the German economy gains nothing from new flights to DXB, on the contrary seats on other LH and AB flights would be lost and only the Dubai economy would benefit from such an extended bilateral.


User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17082 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
Revenues of foreign carriers are not subject to taxation. Revenues of AB and LH are.

Would that be Air Berlin PLC, eingetragen in England No. 5643814, with its Zweigniederlassung Berlin?

Yeah, I bet they pay TONS of tax in Germany.

Edit: Oh. They do. Apologies for the off-topic post, and for being wrong.

[Edited 2011-01-17 09:19:03]

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 16736 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):

well, there are no quotas in this bilaterals. EK can, if they want, establish an hourly service between Germany and Dubai. A quota is something completely different and does not apply in this ser vice industry-

They can only serve four airports. This is a restriction and limits their access to the market.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
A country where it talkes 16 years 8and that was quick) to get a runway operaitonal and where the night curfew is still not cleared does not protect its home industry, especially not against a country where runways are build by order de mufti, pardon, sheikh , in year or 2 and night curfews are not a topic of discussion..

Has nothing to do with our subject here.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
Again - EK has more than generous traffic rights in Germany and ample room to grow and absolutely no reason to complain..

The reason to complain is given through the fact that they can't serve Berlin and Stuttgart without giving up two of their four currently served destinations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
Now, you would have to explain that to me. As I have oiutlined before, Berliners can reach one stop most if not all destinations EK servces via DXB through other hubs in Europe or Qatar or Turkey. There is ample competition available. EK would employ a couple of people in Berlin, that would be the economic impact, very little in hard cash. Revenues of foreign carriers are not subject to taxation. Revenues of AB and LH are.

We can also reach everything via DXB with one stop, because AB flies TXL-DXB. However, flying all on one airline is normally cheaper then changing, especially when the carriers do not code-share and are not in the same alliance. This is the case here. So for somebody flying from DXB or a connected point to Germany, he can reach places like HAM or DUS better/faster/cheaper, with the same airline on the same FF program. This puts Berlin in a disadvantage concerning tourists and business travel, which both generate income for the city.

EK would not pay profit taxes here, but they would pay Umsatzsteuer/sales tax and Lohnsteuer/income tax for everything they'd buy here and everyone they'd employ here. Plus taxes and fees for every passenger landing/starting. That alone would add up to a nice sum and would only be direct effects. There would also be indirect effects, as stated above.

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
These seats are given equally to Germany ( LH & AB ) and Dubai ( EK ).

There are no seats given to anyone.

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
Following the rule the market should be saturated.

Markets often don't follow "rules".

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
But EK is not happy with the bilateral, because they want more than the O&D traffic between Germany and DXB, they want many more flights and more destinations, because they are relying on these feeder flights for their unrealistic idea of an A380 super-hub.

So the German govt. has to decide if they want to renegotiate the bilateral, but they have no reason to do so as the Germany - DXB market is fully saturated and the German economy gains nothing from new flights to DXB, on the contrary seats on other LH and AB flights would be lost and only the Dubai economy would benefit from such an extended bilateral.

Nope.

LH also has the possibility of connecting DXB with a lot of places, for example in Canada, that EK doesn't fly to via FRA or others.

Your thought that the A380 super-hub is unrealistic is off-topic. Has been discussed many times before and a lot of people, myself included, disagree.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 27):

Would that be Air Berlin PLC, eingetragen in England No. 5643814, with its Zweigniederlassung Berlin?

Yeah, I bet they pay TONS of tax in Germany.

AB still pays taxes, and if it even is the income tax of their employees here. To pay company profit taxes, they would need profits first.


25 zeke : I hate to say it, but I agree with you. Germany will hurt initially, like they have when they joined the EU, end of the cold war etc, however if the
26 PanHAM : Fact is that LH is playing the game to full extend. LH is a global carrier with a European base and they are geared for all developments to come. Wha
27 DCAYOW : The Senator likely understands that air access is tied to economic development. So if Berlin has more links (even ones that connect through Dubai to
28 PA101 : @panHAM: Exactly, the bilateral was agreed when LH wanted and needed 5th Freedom Rights out of DXB, to transfer pax from DXB to Asia. Nowadays, they d
29 kaitak : Personally, I think that the German govt (and the Berlin govt) should make it quite clear to Lufthansa that the only sure way to keep it out is for LH
30 tolmachevo : Funny that it is also the fastest growing city in Germany, with the most rapid rise in property prices. I love living as a foreigner in Berlin and li
31 PanHAM : well, it is not a quota and it is not a restriction. They have full access to the market through these 4 airports and EK has made an excellent strate
32 hohd : If EK wants the rights to Berlin, fine give it to them, but do not allow 5th freedom rights. EK can sell tickets only from Berlin to DXB, that's it. L
33 PA101 : If BER-DXB wasn't underserved, why would EK so desperately try to fly it, probably daily with a widebody??? Obviously, a market can be created by offe
34 Navigator : I think there is room for daily flight with Emirates service on the route Berlin - Dubai... What makes you think there is not?
35 Post contains images HansaRostock : This is news to me...I remember having read about something like vat or so not to forget the famous Schaumweinsteuer...
36 Kaiarahi : I agree - if I were the UAE, I'd be doing the same thing. But that doesn't mean Germany (or Canada) have to roll over - they're sovereign countries a
37 wsp : Apparently Berlin's aviation market is a) fantastically competitive, brimming with offers of a multitude of airlines, certainly far more than its unde
38 Post contains links EK156 : More Fuel to the Fire: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/lufth...n-says-emirates-chief--374243.html
39 PA101 : EXACTLY!
40 CARST : We know that and it is the right decision to not change the bilateral. The Gulf region is served well by QR and AB with their direct flight to DXB. A
41 yvr1968 : Hmmm.. Clark was being quoted by phone from Toronto. Toronto? Wonder what he is doing there!? Looks like a similar battle with Germany as with Canada
42 Quokka : Times change and so do attitudes. Back in the 1980s Germany was happy to sign an agreement with the UAE because it served the interests of LH. Nobody
43 incitatus : Why would the German economy suffer? The Emirates purchase of the A380 is a substantial part of its backlog. Without Emirates the German economy woul
44 ikramerica : the difference between this battle and the Canada battle is the A380/Airbus contracts that EK holds. Will EK put pressure on Airbus to lobby the gover
45 PA101 : @CARST: 1. Who is to determine, whether the BER-Gulf-market is saturated? The German Government??? 2. Why should a service that benefits Berlin and it
46 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Because EK is the only airline in the world and people are total idiots who have to rely on EK's ads to tell them where to go for vacation...
47 zeke : To get to most destinations in Africa, Asia, Asia-Pacific, and North America, most people would need to fly to another hub for their onwards travel.
48 Post contains links Globeex : No, it istn't. The market "in this case" is the airtraffic Germany/Berlin-"rest of the world" US-Europe is Open Sky. So, howmany people would Ek real
49 MHG : Now, that would be a smart move ... Perfect ! Problem solved.
50 Quokka : Nowhere have I suggested that the UAE was exploited back then. (And yes, I am aware of what the UAE looked like back then. My first visit was in 1974
51 sydaircargo : where is the open competition here ? someone in Berlin must be listening to LH, they have already shut the doors to QR in FRA to make FRA there HUB in
52 Navigator : I am amazed that discussions regarding traffic rights etc have not come further than this. You obviously think it is regulations that should decide w
53 ojas : If Germany does not want Emirates to expand into Canada, so be it. It's not that EK has 3 weekly flights and is fighting for more. Emirates has got su
54 Thorben : Do you really believe what you are writing? IMHO, the government is really wrong not to change the bilateral. They need to see the economy as a whole
55 fraT : Can you explain, what EK will add to the economy with a BBI-DXB flight? Will that bring more tourists? Not really because the connections won't impro
56 Navigator : I think with the new airport Berlin will have the same development like Munich had when it moved from the small facilities at Riem. Traffic in Berlin
57 fraT : Any proof for that? Even compared to TK the fare is not twice as much. For BA and VS your claim is just ridiculous.
58 ojas : Excuse me? Please take the time to quote the right and person and then throw your volley of questions.
59 Post contains images Thorben : Currently, the airports of Berlin (only TXL and SXF) have 22.3 million pax per year (2010). The growth in the last years has been enormous, mainly du
60 Navigator : By combining traffic to one airport traffic will explode, believe me. And the new airport will probably be able to go beyond it´s designed limits un
61 fraT : I'm sorry ojas. I mixed it up. Of course it's not your quote but the one from Thorben. My apologies.
62 wsp : You seem to assume that (the massive additional) advertising has no effect. Both the airlines and the Berlin Tourismus Marketing agency will be very
63 Post contains images fraT : No need to get personal. In my opinion only a highly subsidized airline can fly with a widebody to Berlin, because with the current situation there i
64 Post contains images Globeex : Berlin is and always has been (at least within the last 60 years) a very special kind of capital. Unlike most capitals Berlin has very little busines
65 Navigator : I agree. I always wondered why they build BBI so small...
66 Post contains links wsp : Like this one ? LH To Use 747 On Some Domestic Flights In Sep (by Tobias2702 Jul 14 2010 in Civil Aviation) Why is LH fighting so much over this low
67 Post contains links zeke : All I did was to go to www.amadeus.net at the time I wrote the post looked for the best one way fares from BER to HKG, Aeroflot was around GBP400, Qa
68 fraT : OK, you should have written, that you were talking about OW fares. I checked the -in my opinion- more relevant return fares.
69 fraT : Come on, you know what I mean. I am not talking about two or three widebody flights, but daily widebody flights. The current connections are quite go
70 Post contains images zeke : My mistake, they were return fares, and LH was around 1100 GPB, not 1800.
71 Thorben : I doubt it is that much. TXL-PEK is 7,376 km TXL-FRA-PEK is 8,245 km TXL-DXB-PEK is 10,493 km EK needs to fly 27.3% further than LH TXL-JNB is 8,839
72 Post contains images Thorben : fact check? Allright, QR, TK, and UA/CO are not regular with widebodies. LH stopped when they got rid of their A306s. However, DL, AB, HU, and OM com
73 fraT : So out of your list, there is not a single airline which offers year round daily widebody service to BER. That's a fact. DL is close and I guess that
74 Navigator : I think you are wrong. EK will bring further competition into the aviation market in germany. EK will also give traffic to airports LH has decided be
75 fraT : AFAIK EK will only fly to DXB. So which destinations are you talking about? Nobody cares about the Germany-Dubai traffic, not even EK or LH. The nega
76 Thorben : No, that is wrong. DL, AB, HU, and OM come year-round with WBs. AB has actually based some in TXL.
77 Globeex : I'm currently planning a trip to South Africa. 2 out of 4 tour operators use EK. 1 South African and 1 LH. What does this have to do with the number
78 fraT : You missed a very important word. I wrote daily service.
79 Thorben : Good for them. I just checked prices for flights in march, AF, KL, and BA are all between 596 and 635 €. EK is at 906 €. LH is at 782 and SA at 8
80 Thorben : Mmmh, yeah, sorry bout that. LH was more than daily with the A306. DL is 6x week, I had to look this up, I always thought they were daily. HU is 4w I
81 Globeex : These prices are just for the moment and not representative, just as my friends aren't... but there obiously are numerous cases where people choose E
82 Viscount724 : Passengers lookikng for low fares don't care about flying a few thousand miles further. EK carries a lot of traffic Europe-Africa on routings more th
83 fraT : And don't forget the taxes on fuel. While most carriers can enjoy only one or two daily flights with the tax free fuel, EK can fuel up more than ever
84 wsp : There is probably a dozen or so threads on this site debunking this baseless assertion. Please substantiate this claim that EK is "dumping" capacity.
85 sydaircargo : QR wanted teh Cargo HUB in FRA , but due to intervention of LH it was not granted. so QR went to AMS now.
86 fraT : Although the topic is on BER, but EK wants to add at least two more flights on top of it's already 6 daily flights from Germany (plus HAM will get an
87 Post contains images hal9213 : In this thread, everybody is discussing about slots, rights, policies, bilaterals, but who has ever considered whats most important, which is custome
88 Thorben : There is too much speculation in this. Maybe EK's employees don't pay income taxes, but EK pays for their housing, medical care, children's school fe
89 Globeex : Well, I agree, that they haven't done much. On the other hand I think they did as much as it was economically wise. They could have offered some more
90 Kaiarahi : That's a value judgement, not an absolute. If there's only one existing supplier, then introducing a competitor to create a market place may be very
91 Thorben : LH never made TXL a hub because the airport was never planned for that. There is no transit area and check-in for a wide-body, even an A321, ques hal
92 Post contains images hal9213 : Well, they introduced snacks on short-haul, for a start I would say the new F in the A380 is competitive. But staying with the old C was a big questi
93 Globeex : I don't realy understand, what you are trying to say. Do you mean, that other airlines fly widebodies to TXL? I agree, but how does that support you
94 Burkhard : If EK wants to fly BER, they have to give up DUS,MUC,HAM or FRA. If they don't want this, this shows the real value of BBI. Give up DUS, and connect D
95 Hirnie : Correct. Berlin seems to be only number 5 in Germany for EK. If a Berlin Senator wants more or better connections to the far east he should try to ge
96 AirNZ : And, technically, Lufthansa should have no say in the matter/decision......and they would also be the first to loudly complain if another airline was
97 Hirnie : There are a lot of similar actions against LH in certain other countries. Look at Russia, how Aeroflot is protected and subsidised by the state. Bila
98 Post contains images Globeex : add to that China and the A380 flight limitation as well as India. And, as mentioned, I mean they had to move a whole cargo hub. The extension of a r
99 Post contains links Thorben : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-cxRYdtleE Their new F class? I'd rather fly C class on SQ than that. Look what SQ and others have with their suits. L
100 Globeex : Berlin is pretty bad compared to most other big cities in Germany. Yes, but tourists aren't really high yielding passengers. "Be" maybe. "Do": certai
101 Thorben : Right, but it is pretty big and has some decent places with people that have money, such as Steglitz-Zehlendorf or Frohnau. I know people that fly F
102 ytz : The Blue Sky policy is fairly clear. And it's not just O-D but volume of trade, level of relations, etc. Note that I'm not debating that EK should ha
103 ytz : I see the same fight in Germany as the one EK faced in Canada. The problem as I see it is two-fold: 1) Precedence. What EK gets, EY and QR have to get
104 ojas : The Blue sky policy is well drafted no comments on that, but what about the other countries? I had read in the past (Correct me If I'm wrong) that Au
105 ytz : Not familiar with Aussie policy. But on our end, as far as I know, you've got the Blue Sky policy and that's it. No specific formula. And with the ex
106 ytz : It should be noted though that the nature of the dispute between Canada and the UAE and Germany and the UAE have some fundamental differences. In the
107 ojas : So apparently the govt. is protecting these points and charging higher fares? I don't think that's fair. You are punishing an entire catchment area j
108 Thorben : Maybe we can stay on Berlin in this thread. EK in Canada is certainly an interesting subject, but off-topic. Canada is way further away from DXB than
109 Post contains images Globeex : So do I. But usualy not to a city trip for 3-5 days but rather to Male or Tahiti. But the difference between Berlin-Hamburg and DDorf-FRA is like 35m
110 ytz : No. You are protecting one region from losing international connections for the sake of a subset of travellers from another region. In Canada, region
111 ytz : ooop. Double post..................[Edited 2011-01-25 11:29:59]
112 ytz : That made me LOL. I agree. To a point. I wouldn't call it capacity dumping. That term only applies if you're trying to kill off the competition and w
113 ojas : But isn't the higher fares the end result? Ok I understand this dimension. Well that's what EK claim .... not me. Totally agreed. Even I believe that
114 Kaiarahi : I don't want to hijack the thread, but there's no conspiracy to hide anything here. The Qatar-Canada bilateral has been initialed but not yet ratifed
115 irobertson : Exactly. Why can't there be some sort of middle ground? And frankly, if AC isn't going to provide direct service to the UAE and instead funnel us thr
116 ytz : Yes. However, the government has to be concerned with far more than the price of an air ticket to BOM or CMB or SIN. And now you know why the Canadia
117 ojas : Oh certainly, Canada will sign the blue skies with India without a bat of an eyelid. Even though Indian carriers fly 14 weekly out of YYZ and Canadia
118 Post contains links wsp : Related press release from today: http://presse.lufthansa.com/de/meldu.../2011/january/26/article/1864.html "Mit einem neuen Projekt „Zukunft Berlin
119 Thorben : Anyway, this shows that even in tourist destinations there can be high yields. Maybe. We'll see what happens when BBI opens. EK might drop one of the
120 ytz : I have a hunch that's what will happen. Unfortunately, this is where Canada might have dropped the ball. Generally speaking, the government simply ne
121 ytz : Doesn't say much. New focus on Berlin....with an executive there. Okay....
122 Post contains links longhauler : That is how I see it as well. Especially after reading this editorial in an Ottawa newspaper. Gives one an idea of how some people are leaning in Can
123 Kaiarahi : And the columnist is close to the government - he stood aside to allow the PM to run as the Tory candidate in Calgary SW when he first became an MP.
124 ytz : Meh. Ezra's a right wing columnist. I don't think he'd disagree with Harper. I think the editorial by Colin Kenny was far more telling. Reading the t
125 longhauler : I am not saying I agree with what is posted ... I was just indicating that this is a sign of the current "mood". Let's face it, the best the UAE coul
126 longhauler : I had attached several links on how well that went for a lot of the "workers". The terms on which they were employed, and the conditions that they en
127 ytz : @longhauler Having lived in and grown up in Dubai as the son of a construction engineer, I am fully aware of how the common help is treated over there
128 hal9213 : Dont think so. Both routes are established and profitable. In HAM, they have the second biggest EK lounge in Europe after LHR. Their connection to A3
129 Quokka : Hurrah! A post that is actually about Berlin and not a sterile debate about Canada. I am really surprised that the moderators haven't locked this thre
130 ytz : Yes. They've pretty much said as much. I would think once the A350s come in..... Apologies. Sadly, a very good Canada-UAE thread degenerated into a s
131 Quokka : Previously EK had double daily into HAM, one of which continued to JFK if I remember correctly. The reduction to once daily was unconnected with any
132 Thorben : What do the A380 deliveries have to do with that? Does EK serve TLS or SEA? The lounge I can understand more. That "some airline" is going to be AB.
133 ytz : How are EY and QR doing in Germany? I wonder if those airlines will factor in to the equation when looking at EK's aim of serving more Germany cities.
134 Kaiarahi : As this one almost did. I received a nasty IM from a Hong Kong poster which concluded "Sooner new zealanders realise how insignificant they are the b
135 Post contains links Thorben : EY serves FRA and MUC. FRA is double daily (winter: 2 x A332, summer: 1x A346 & 1 x A332). MUC is daily with an A332. I don't have the text of th
136 Kaiarahi : Does that tend to support what GlobeEx and others were saying about the Berlin economy/market?
137 Thorben : Partially. QR started with 4/w flights, so daily is already an improvement. They also used A319s in the beginning, now they use A320s. 4 x A319 with
138 Quokka : My understanding is that designated airlines in the UAE may fly to any four points in Germany. The points are not specified but are subject to approv
139 Thorben : If that was the case, then EK could simply wet-lease some A332s to FlyDubai and fly them in a "code-share" to TXL. Or do something like that, allowin
140 Kaiarahi : I thought EK and EY were the designated carriers under the bilateral.
141 Thorben : Really? EY was founded in 2003 and to my knowledge the bilateral is a lot older than that.
142 Post contains images Quokka : Is FlyDubai a designated airline for the purposes of the air services agreement? There are no German destinations offered on its web site and if they
143 Kaiarahi : Bilaterals when signed typically do not specify the carrier. The carriers are designated later by the respective governments. For example, the Canada
144 Post contains links Kaiarahi : An astounding display of arrogance and a tin ear: http://www.emirates.com/english/imag...o_the_other_wall_tcm233-579859.pdf EK is likening its access
145 Thorben : I found the bilateral (in German), but it is very general and talks of some "flightlists" in which details are supposed to be specified. I didn't fin
146 Globeex : Well, how does it support the case of adding a wide body daily if it does hardy support a A320 with an airline that has been there for years. I mean,
147 Post contains links wsp : The EK reference is clearly cringe-worthy, considering that the East German regime fell because courageous people went to the streets and not because
148 ytz : Out of some personal curiosity, I am curious if any of the German members here can tell us what the links are between Germany and the Indian sub-conti
149 Thorben : As I said, QR is not EK. I have no doubt that EK could fill a daily A332 to TXL. Australia is more than just SYD. There are also BNE and PER, which E
150 PanHAM : So did EK, right? No one bars EK from shifting their ops at HAM to TXL and later BER (BBI) and, in case it has not been mentiond in the most recent 1
151 CaptainCrackers : I'd say LH too, given their apparent lack of ability to compete with EK or EY on product. It'd be such a shame to allow the consumer to decide and al
152 Thorben : What use do they have from stopping HAM and opening TXL? If EK wants to serve FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, TXL, and STR, then let them do it. Why are people i
153 Post contains links PanHAM : Well, that's life, you can't get everything you want, right? If EK wants BER that bad, they have to give up one of the four destinations they current
154 Post contains images dazeflight : @ PanHAM: it's always bewildering to see what a protectionist, bitter old guy you are. Arguments like "you can't have everything you want" and actuall
155 PanHAM : Thanks for the compliments, I always admire people who can make such analyses and statements about others they don't know. Wonder what qualifies you.
156 Thorben : You can't get everything. But EK certainly could fly to Berlin, all they need is the OK of the government for a fifth destination. They are serving t
157 CaptainCrackers : I couldn't care less about national interest. My opinion is that agreements like this one stifle innovation and keep prices higher than they would ot
158 AirIndia : by that logic most countries cant negotiate bilaterals with India or China.....
159 L410Turbolet : Funny you don't have at least as much problem with various kickbacks EK enjoys on its home turf or the slave labor and dreadful conditions the entire
160 Thorben : Right. LH certainly flies to more destinations in the US than all US carriers combined have destinations in Germany. Same with India and China. Did h
161 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Get rid of all the levels of local and federal government, scrap the option for people to have government's decisions contested in court and have an
162 wsp : Germany isn't the leading export nation because we are selective about who we do business with. Pulling out the human rights card over this is hypocr
163 PanHAM : you are running around in circles. Give me one valid reason why Germany should do that? Thanks for enlightening me that Augsburg can take A330s, 777s
164 Thorben : Did I say that? No. So don't pretend I said that. The world is not black/white. There certainly must be something between a dictatorial style and del
165 Thorben : Berlin is the German capital and biggest city. It is however, a rather poor city - you have been so friendly to mention that at almost every opportun
166 CaptainCrackers : Thanks Thorben. I wish I could have put it so succintly.
167 fraT : Can you name some countries where a possible EK flight DXB-BER would improve the connections to BER so drastically that "tens of thousands" of additi
168 Thorben : Australia, New Zealand, India, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Pakistan, Hong Kong, Philippines, UAE, Saudi-Arabia. A lot of these countries have a ve
169 Post contains images fraT : Oh, I forgot the thousands of tourists from Thiruvananthapuram, who come to BER. Without checking I would say that from India (apart from the so impo
170 Thorben : India has 1.2 billion people. Even a small percentage of people wanting to travel to Berlin means a lot people. EK has ten destinations in India. Fro
171 fraT : BTW, just checked some fares on EK.com and Expedia. The first one I checked was DUS-NRT (24FEB-9MAR). The lowest on Expedia was Finnair with just over
172 Thorben : With the return two days later EK is at 763 and AF/KL at 655. I recently checked flights from HAM to DXB and the cheapest was TK, but with bad times,
173 fraT : It should be clear that EK will never be the cheapest on a route where they fly nonstop compared to a one stop of every competitor. And TK is also on
174 Thorben : Why is that so clear? Thank heaven that at least they can fly to TXL. They have become a carrier with a lot of interesting connections through IST I
175 Globeex : You where claiming that this might happen. People could//would do a lot of things if they were allowed. Well, that depends. The fact that EK could fl
176 Thorben : It might, because BER might offer more connections than HAM. However, HAM might have the stronger local market. But the improvement for EK would be s
177 ikramerica : When market conditions are different for two businesses, it's no longer a "free market" and that means that allowing unfettered access could destroy
178 Globeex : Have you ever been in DXB during "rush hour"? I guess not. You will appreciate MUC. If you would have complained about FRA... fair enough, but about
179 Quokka : Leaving the ownership issue aside for the minute, do the bilaterals not normally include clauses covering preferential treatment of air carriers? Cer
180 Globeex : The thing is that EK (would) only have to deal with this half of the route. If, for example cerosin is cheaper in DXB than in FRA they would only hav
181 Quokka : That argument can be applied to every flight that takes place. Aviation fuel prices can vary from country to country, but EK obtains most of its fuel
182 ikramerica : Of course. My point is that Germany could say "you want open skies? then divest your airlines." The UAE would never do that, so there won't be open s
183 Thorben : Instead of telling other what to do the German government should rather improve conditions for its own enterprises. Let's face it, LH flies to dozens
184 Post contains images Thorben : No sir, EK doesn't fly to where I live. But from the pictures their terminal in DXB seems rather nice. FRA is terrible, recently connected there. MUC
185 hal9213 : A380 deliveries means lots of EK officials frequently flying to HAM. And I heard rumors, that the reason for one of the biggest and shiniest EK Loung
186 Post contains links and images Thorben : I think this thread has gotten a bit too far into details. The main issue still is: EK wants to fly to Berlin without having to give up one of their
187 Post contains links Thorben : They'll have only two deliveries this year. Besides, even with more deliveries they would be far away from 350 or more seats per day. They would mayb
188 fraT : I won't comment your article which reads like an EK memo to it's employees or lobby groups in BER. But the last sentence is so ridiculous that I have
189 Thorben : Thanks, but to be honest, I wrote that all by myself. - The government of Berlin receives subsidies from other states. - The people of Berlin have to
190 hal9213 : Of course it does not fill the flight (the HAM flight is packed for various other reasons anyway), I am only saying this will be a reason a HAM fligh
191 Thorben : Among that the fact that I'd rather take the bus from Berlin to Fuhlsbüttel before I'd fly with AB. Profitability plays a role for EK. By your logic
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