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VX: 3rd Daily LAX/SFO-DFW Begins April 6th  
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

http://www.virginamerica.com/vx/book...dallas-fort-worth?cid=sm_social410

Everything’s bigger in Texas, so we’re adding more daily flights to the Lone Star State to cover all that ground. Starting April 6, we’ll be flying three times a day between the West Coast and Dallas-Fort Worth. Wrangle a seat by January 24 to fly for $109* each way.

Very glad to see Virgin doing well, I am always excited when an airline announces more expansions. Was another route cut from this, or is this a newly delivered Aircraft perhaps?

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Well, that should put to rest the theory that VX couldn't compete with AA on LAX-DFW.

Does anybody think that VX is directly benefiting from AA's problems with the OTA's on these routes?


User currently offlineRedwoodA320 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):

Due to low demand, VX will pull out of YYZ...

Effective 04/06/11

Redwood_A320


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1074 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 1):
Well, that should put to rest the theory that VX couldn't compete with AA on LAX-DFW.

Not really. It should put the rest the theory that only 2x daily flights is adequate to compete agianst AA's 18x daily flights. Their schedule sucks right now and unless they can improve it, they are going to fail here.

Here's a few snippets from what their CEO has to say about it in the media release -:

Quote:
Virgin America president David Cush said the airline wants to make its Dallas/Fort Worth schedule more attractive to business travelers by adding the third flight.......

...... we had a bit of a hole in the schedule,” he said. At present, Virgin America’s last flight from D/FW was at about 2 p.m.

“This allows us to add an evening departure out of D/FW and an early evening arrival into D/FW. It really filled out a hole in our schedule that we think was making some business travelers reluctant to fly on us,” Cush said.......

.......“The issue we had before was that we simply did not have the aircraft to do that in December,” he said.

I was going to try VX myself until I found that if I don't want to take the 0700 flight, I would have to wait nearly ten hours for the 16:35!



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2876 times:
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Quoting RedwoodA320 (Reply 3):

Anyone know why demand is so low? This makes me wonder which new routes will actually work.


User currently offlinejetmarc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 555 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 5):
Anyone know why demand is so low? This makes me wonder which new routes will actually work.

I think it has a lot to do with nav can and canadian taxes... You purchase a ticket and the ticket sometimes cost an additional 40% in taxes... Flying to and from Canada isnt cheap and I think that hurt sales.



"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 4):
Not really. It should put the rest the theory that only 2x daily flights is adequate to compete agianst AA's 18x daily flights. Their schedule sucks right now and unless they can improve it, they are going to fail here.

And yet despite the poor schedule...

“We’ve seen a very strong response to our initial schedule. We know part of it was that it was over the holiday period when everything sells out. But as we looked at future bookings when we got out of the holiday period, the demand remained very strong,” Cush said.

So to sum up, with a poor schedule compared to AA's, VX performed quite well (far from failing as you predict) and now they will have an even more competitive offering in therms of frequency. Sounds to me like they are doing fine in the market and will only do better with this schedule change.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32873 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 4):
Not really. It should put the rest the theory that only 2x daily flights is adequate to compete agianst AA's 18x daily flights. Their schedule sucks right now and unless they can improve it, they are going to fail here.

And yet despite the poor schedule...

“We’ve seen a very strong response to our initial schedule. We know part of it was that it was over the holiday period when everything sells out. But as we looked at future bookings when we got out of the holiday period, the demand remained very strong,” Cush said.

So to sum up, with a poor schedule compared to AA's, VX performed quite well (far from failing as you predict) and now they will have an even more competitive offering in therms of frequency. Sounds to me like they are doing fine in the market and will only do better with this schedule change.

Sounds to me like you have a complete inability to read pass PR BS.

I'm not saying Virgin America is doing poorly, but just like you have no idea, neither do I.



a.
User currently offlineKEAGKID101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

I don't see how the demand is raising for SFO/LAX-DFW.I just did a quick search for a flight from SFO-DFW for tomorrow (1/22), and the 8:00am flight is departing (as of now) with only 53 passengers on-board. That leaves 96 seats open on this A320 flight. Demand is lacking also on the 5:45pm flight, with only 26 passengers on board the A319. That leaves 93 seats open.

How is this considered "increasing demand"?


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6153 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2742 times:

Neither of these are a suprise!

Cush said to employee's months ago that VX underestimated the loyalty of AC passengers. The YYZ loads have been awful. And frankly, the crew from what I hear don't mind seeing this layover going away.

DFW on the other hand has been great. Future books were stong from the get-go.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineRedwoodA320 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

Quoting jetmarc (Reply 6):
I think it has a lot to do with nav can and canadian taxes... You purchase a ticket and the ticket sometimes cost an additional 40% in taxes... Flying to and from Canada isnt cheap and I think that hurt sales

   The main reason i get angry customers calling about reservation to/from YYZ. Im already hearing it from the new service (CUN)


User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2369 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 1):
Does anybody think that VX is directly benefiting from AA's problems with the OTA's on these routes?

Since that is a pretty far fetched idea, it's pretty safe to assume you're the only one that would think that. DFW is AA's home. Pretty much all AA loyalists flying out of there book directly with AA.

Not having OTAs is not the end of the world.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlinecloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 4):
Not really. It should put the rest the theory that only 2x daily flights is adequate to compete agianst AA's 18x daily flights. Their schedule sucks right now and unless they can improve it, they are going to fail here.

Of course not and VX knows this! VX flights are pure O&D while for AA, DFW (and LAX) is O&D plus transit. VX is looking for a piece of the pie, not the whole pie. Personally, if I had a choice, I would prefer to fly VX than AA as the former provides a better product.



Boston, USA
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

I'll be interested to see the passenger traffic numbers for VX once they are posted. Right now, DFW's site only has traffic stats up to October 2010.

User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):

Sounds to me like you have a complete inability to read pass PR BS.

I'm not saying Virgin America is doing poorly, but just like you have no idea, neither do I.

Its not PR BS when they actually increase capacity in the market! Airlines that are failing on a route do not increase capacity by 50%!!! Seems like you have a complete inability to acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 12):

Since that is a pretty far fetched idea, it's pretty safe to assume you're the only one that would think that. DFW is AA's home. Pretty much all AA loyalists flying out of there book directly with AA.

Not having OTAs is not the end of the world.

Not having OTAs is definitely not the end of the world. But there is nothing far fetched about my idea. AA has publicly stated they were paying hundreds of millions to those agencies, that means people were booking via those sites, and AA has even acknowledges that they would lose passengers as a result of the dispute and those passengers are going somewhere (my only question was is VX the one benefiting from it? and it is not far fetched by any means). Great DFW is AA's home, so what? LAX and SFO are VX's home, what's your point? And as for AA loyalists, do you not realize that the majority of the traveling public are not AA loyalists??? No one is questioning what AA loyalists will do but rather what those passengers who are not AA loyalists will do.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11689 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 15):
Not having OTAs is definitely not the end of the world. But there is nothing far fetched about my idea. AA has publicly stated they were paying hundreds of millions to those agencies, that means people were booking via those sites, and AA has even acknowledges that they would lose passengers as a result of the dispute and those passengers are going somewhere (my only question was is VX the one benefiting from it? and it is not far fetched by any means). Great DFW is AA's home, so what? LAX and SFO are VX's home, what's your point? And as for AA loyalists, do you not realize that the majority of the traveling public are not AA loyalists??? No one is questioning what AA loyalists will do but rather what those passengers who are not AA loyalists will do.

I take your point, but I personally believe that - in this specific case - it is not having nearly as large of an impact as it is having on the overall AA network.

First, both of these markets - DFW-LAX and DFW-SFO - are driven in large part by corporate contracts, and in many cases the corporations using these flights, especially in the Metroplex, book through SABRE platforms. Thus, they still can book AA flights through their normal booking channel.

Second, and most importantly, a huge portion of the traffic on these flights is so insanely loyal to AA that they will book AA through whatever platform they have to in order to earn their AAdvantage miles. It is hard to understate the dominance of AA in the DFW market.

And finally, I don't think AA not having a presence on Expedia or Orbitz is driving a big booking share over to Virgin since - if I'm not mistaken - Virgin isn't available through those at least Expedia, either.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I take your point, but I personally believe that - in this specific case - it is not having nearly as large of an impact as it is having on the overall AA network.

First, both of these markets - DFW-LAX and DFW-SFO - are driven in large part by corporate contracts, and in many cases the corporations using these flights, especially in the Metroplex, book through SABRE platforms. Thus, they still can book AA flights through their normal booking channel.

Second, and most importantly, a huge portion of the traffic on these flights is so insanely loyal to AA that they will book AA through whatever platform they have to in order to earn their AAdvantage miles. It is hard to understate the dominance of AA in the DFW market.

And finally, I don't think AA not having a presence on Expedia or Orbitz is driving a big booking share over to Virgin since - if I'm not mistaken - Virgin isn't available through those at least Expedia, either.

I can appreciate your analysis, and that is why I asked the question. But I took great offense to someone telling me it is far fetched.

I didn't realize that VX wasn't available through Expedia, but I just checked and they didn't appear on the random date I selected but they do appear on Orbitz.

I do realize that AA is dominate in Dallas, but AA is (although not as dominant) dominant in LA along with UA and UA is dominant in SF and yet VX is expecting a profit this year operating in nothing but markets dominated by legacy carriers. I do not expect VX to run any legacy off any of their hub-to-hub routes but them seem to be able to carve out a niche in those markets that works well for them, I was just asking if they might have benefited from the OTA dispute because this increase in capacity is rather quick and I was looking for an explanation that might explain why they found so much demand so fast.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6153 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Neither the addition of DFW service or dropping YYZ should be a surprise to those linked with VX.

David Cush said from a few months in that they clearly underestimated the loyalty of AC passengers. Personally, I did however think they'd give the servce till the end of summer.

DFW has been a great perfomer since the starting gun sounded. The advance bookings, from what I heard, have been the best of any destination.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32873 posts, RR: 71
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 15):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):

Sounds to me like you have a complete inability to read pass PR BS.

I'm not saying Virgin America is doing poorly, but just like you have no idea, neither do I.

Its not PR BS when they actually increase capacity in the market! Airlines that are failing on a route do not increase capacity by 50%!!! Seems like you have a complete inability to acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

No, I don't the complete inability at all.

It is very possible that VX is finding it difficult to attract business traffic with a poor business schedule of two dailies. Three daily flights is just the right amount needed in this market to offer an effective schedule to lure away business traffic. In a medium-haul domestic, business heavy market like this, adding frequency is exactly what one wants to do to bump up an under-performing route with great potential.

Neither of us have any idea how VX is doing. End of story.

When DFW releases December traffic data, we'll at least be able to see how the planes are filling.

And, for the record, I never thought this would be a difficult market for Virgin America. There is room for it, but it needs to be at least 3x daily on each to steal business traffic.



a.
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2369 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 15):
Great DFW is AA's home, so what? LAX and SFO are VX's home, what's your point? And as for AA loyalists, do you not realize that the majority of the traveling public are not AA loyalists??? No one is questioning what AA loyalists will do but rather what those passengers who are not AA loyalists will do.

That's the point. DFW is AA's turf. They are the large presence there. Most corporate contracts book off of OTAs. VX has a presence in LAX/SFO, but they are a new start up catering to a smaller amount of passengers. Many people have not even heard of VX, let alone that they fly to DFW. The majority of passengers will fly AA on the route because of brand, they know AA will have SEVERAL flights a day to suit their schedule, and because of loyalty towards AAdvantage (People want their miles).

And last time I checked, VX is not on many OTAs, and does not even show up on Sabre. How will VX do in the market? I don't know. To me it's 50/50. In any case, I believe there is room for one more carrier other than AA/UA. We shall see, but don't be offended.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineblink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Does anybody know how UA is doing on SFO/LAX-DFW? I know recently UA upgraded DFW to 4x CR7. SFO-DFW is still 2x daily with a mix of mainline and express. When comparing frequencies, UA offers far fewer flights than AA and about the same as VX In terms of capacity, UA might even offer fewer seats than VX on these two routes.

Are the LAX/SFO UA loyalty and onward connections strong enough to sustain DFW, or does UA stand a chance of being squeezed out? If UA, AA, and VX are all strong, is it safe to say that LAX/SFO-DFW were simply under served to begin with?



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 15):
Its not PR BS when they actually increase capacity in the market! Airlines that are failing on a route do not increase capacity by 50%!!! Seems like you have a complete inability to acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

What exactly do you expect them to say in a press release? "We were losing our shirts on our service to Toronto and we think DFW won't be as big of a disaster?"

The quote from the announcement of SNA being dropped was: "Despite our relatively strong performance at SNA, given our new fleet plan and network prospects, we’ve made the decision to focus on the immediate long-haul opportunities that the Orlando and Toronto markets provide. We thank the SNA airport leadership and community for supporting us – and our teammates for their dedication."

It's just as conceivable that the DFW service isn't doing very well, and they've gotten feedback that some people are booking away due to the schedule.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25512 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
I'm not saying Virgin America is doing poorly, but just like you have no idea, neither do I.

I posted in some other thread recently, that if one looks at fares VX charges to DFW, they are some of the highest in the network distance wise.

For instance one can fly to BOS/IAD for less money then DFW from the West Coast.

On the surface this seems to tell me things cant be too bad as they don't need to discount as heavily to Dallas and manage to take in fares that are higher than East Coast destinations for half the distance flown.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

When will WN be able to fly DAL-LAX and DAL-SFO? If an LCC wants to build up any sort of following out of the Metroplex to points beyond the limitations of the Wright Amendment, it had better do it now. Once the limitations disappear, WN will be free to start service anywhere.

Between AA and WN, trying to break through passenger loyalty of Metroplex residents would be a Herculean task. VX may be thinking that bulking up service to DFW, even if it does poorly at the start, is the only way to head off WN, once it can start service to California out of DAL.


User currently offlineairstatdfw From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Does anybody know what the new schedules are going to be? With UA and VX adding flts how many seats have been added to the DFW-SFO/LAX market.

25 LAXintl : From a bit of an internal news bulletin it was mentioned that Dallas area has a large population of CO FF'ers. So I suppose by giving them these flig
26 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I think VX is fairly conservative when it comes to pricing and for the most part just matches the existing structure in the market. Since BOS/IADWest
27 flyingcat : Virgin America (VX) is in Sabre, Apollo, Amadeus, Galileo and Worldspan. They are also in the major OTAs including Travelocity, Orbitz, Expedia and P
28 RedwoodA320 : Correct, However travel agents and such have a very hard time navigating and understanding what classes are what for example J/M/Y because of the boo
29 MAH4546 : That's what I have noticed, as well. I was kind of hoping for some Dallas-Los Angeles fare wars, but it simply hasn't happened.
30 HeeseokKoo : And that's still the same as new flight is at 18:35. Schedule is now viewable as such: LAX-DFW 10:55am-3:50pm 12:45pm-5:50pm (New one) 5:00pm-9:55pm
31 atrude777 : Hmmh I admit I don't have access to who likes to fly when but making them have to wait such a long period is quite odd. They should do a 7am as poste
32 LoneStarMike : To be more specific, October 13, 2014 LoneStarMike
33 milemaster : Just booked a nearly 794.40 fare on VX DFW-LAX departing monday, returning thursday. They were still cheaper than the other two non-stop options (AA/U
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