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Seattle Man Found Innocent, TSA, ID And NM  
User currently onlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1727 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/433918_tsa.html

This is an ongoing problem both of TSA personnel and FAs. Both have to exercise quasi-arrest activity, and they are not as well prepared for it as they need to be. Both need more training on what the law is. You do not have to explain your cash holdings nor have the ID they requested for a domestic flight. FAs need to be trained more specifically as to what is breaking the law calling for arrest, and what might put a person on the airline's no fly list. The later is usually the more appropriate threat.

What would really help these 'front line' workers is better back up. Well trained people should be able to quickly say what is required, or is not required. FAs and TSA people need to say not that someone is under arrest (which badly escalates the situation) but rather refer to to a superviser to decide, protecting the dignity of both sides.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19923 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

While this is a victory for civil rights, I'm afraid the war is still lost. The majority of Americans have no issues with the TSA's invasive practices. As such, by de-facto democratic vote, our 4th Amendment rights are waived whenever we wish to travel long distances rapidly.

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4062 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7988 times:
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So does it mean that you can fly out of MN without producing ID?
If so, how quickly will TSA appeal?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7946 times:

Flying w/o ID is done all the time - and the TSA knows how to handle it. Guy at work's wife did it when she left her ID at home.

What the guy in the article did is not show any ID (he didn't have any on him) and then he refused to give his name or leave the airport when asked to.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26593 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 7515 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 2):
If so, how quickly will TSA appeal?

The TSA is not a party to this case. This was a misdemeanor criminal case brought by the Bernalillo County District Attorney's Office on the charges pressed by the Albuquerque Police. The TSA has no standing in state court anyway, as they are a federal agency.

Finally, an appeal from a criminal acquittal is an unconstitutional attachment of double jeopardy.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 2):
So does it mean that you can fly out of MN without producing ID?

You can fly out of any airport in the US without producing ID to the TSA. Whether the airline wants it is up to them, as a private business.

Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
What the guy in the article did is not show any ID (he didn't have any on him) and then he refused to give his name or leave the airport when asked to.

Actually, he did not have ID because he did not want to be forced by the government to show ID when traveling in his own country. Not to mention the fact that it is NOT a requirement to show ID to the TSA.

Further, outside a law that applies to actual criminal investigations (which Phil Mocek was not the subject of), it is unconstitutional to force someone to disclose their identity to any government actor. Further, he was well within his rights to be at the airport (public property anyway), as he had contracted a common carrier to take him from point A to point B.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4062 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 7414 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
You can fly out of any airport in the US without producing ID to the TSA.

Thanks. For some reason I thought Secure Flight had changed that. Obviously not.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
The TSA has no standing in state court anyway, as they are a federal agency.

While it's exceedingly rare for any federal agency to sue in state court, I don't know of any legal principle that would prevent them from doing so.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Further, outside a law that applies to actual criminal investigations (which Phil Mocek was not the subject of), it is unconstitutional to force someone to disclose their identity to any government actor.

Can you cite a case to that effect? Certainly, it's the norm to show identification for access to most federal government buildings.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
As such, by de-facto democratic vote, our 4th Amendment rights are waived whenever we wish to travel long distances rapidly.

I've wondered about this. I'm not a legal person. But with the searches and patdowns, which in other circumstances would be considered criminal sexual assault, can you be forced to submit? Ok, yes, you effectively consent by traveling by air, but you still don't want to be sexually assaulted...it's effectively against your will. So is it really a valid consent if you're forced to be subjected to what could be considered illegal activity? Kind of like a contract that's invalid because it contains illegal activity.

I know a lot of people say it's a choice to fly, but that's not the point. For one, many people have to travel for their jobs. If their point about everything being a choice - usually a quick response meant to stop the argument when someone doesn't agree with the philosophical or political views of the other - then they shouldn't complain about government or taxes. After all, it's a choice to live where they do...they could always move to another state or country.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Further, he was well within his rights to be at the airport (public property anyway), as he had contracted a common carrier to take him from point A to point B.

Exactly what jurisdiction does TSA have...I mean, where does it start and end? If you're at the airport, but not going to fly - say because you're going shopping at the stores outside of security or having dinner because you like the restaurant - do they have any basis for oversight anyway, if it's a public authority airport? Or maybe it's different if it's a private authority airport?


User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 5318 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Not to mention the fact that it is NOT a requirement to show ID to the TSA.

Further, outside a law that applies to actual criminal investigations (which Phil Mocek was not the subject of), it is unconstitutional to force someone to disclose their identity to any government actor. Further, he was well within his rights to be at the airport (public property anyway), as he had contracted a common carrier to take him from point A to point B.

That may be so...But that law was overridden now that the TSA mandates you must show an ID at the checkpoint or give your information out should you lose your ID.


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

Interesting.. can somebody point to the specific statute or regulation that spells out your obligation of producing ID for TSA?

User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 9):
Interesting.. can somebody point to the specific statute or regulation that spells out your obligation of producing ID for TSA?
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/acceptable_documents.shtm


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 5150 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 10):
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/acceptable_documents.shtm

That's just their website. I want an actual citation to the Code of Federal Regulations or United States Code.


User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

FAA Security Directive 96-05 look it up. However you will not be "forced" to produce an ID your bags and all carry on items will be subject to a full search and marked with a colored sticker and will not be loaded onto the plane until you are confirmed to have boarded.

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 12):
FAA Security Directive 96-05 look it up. However you will not be "forced" to produce an ID your bags and all carry on items will be subject to a full search and marked with a colored sticker and will not be loaded onto the plane until you are confirmed to have boarded.

Actually that is not for showing ID to the TSA, which did not even exist at the time the directive was issued. So while there may be additional screening, you do not have to show ID with a properly purchased ticket.

Also, if the actions of the TSA are to secure the nations airways, can anyone point to a terrorist action in the USA that could have been prevented by having to produce an ID? In fact all the terrorists have had "good" ID's. So a "good ID" does nothing to protect people.

The TSA has become a general screening agency that reviews all people traveling in the USA. It does not actually provide "secure" air travel.. That is being done by the systems that existed long before the TSA (bag and personnel screenings, on going intelligence operations, etc.) and do not need the TSA to exist. The TSA is/has become simply a bloated over-reaching federal pork agency.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-01-23 10:49:02]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineEXMEMWIDGET From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4372 times:

I don't feel bad for the guy. He had no ID and refused to give his name, yet he expected to board an airplane. It sounds like he is nothing more than a difficult ass whose acting out blew up in his face.

User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4330 times:

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 14):
I don't feel bad for the guy. He had no ID and refused to give his name, yet he expected to board an airplane. It sounds like he is nothing more than a difficult ass whose acting out blew up in his face.

  
Sorry, but thats like me getting pulled over by a cop for speeding and saying, "I have no ID and will not give you my name." That will definitely give me a one way ticket straight to jail.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5669 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 14):
I don't feel bad for the guy. He had no ID and refused to give his name, yet he expected to board an airplane.

I wasn't aware the 4th Amendment had been repealed.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 15):
Sorry, but thats like me getting pulled over by a cop for speeding and saying, "I have no ID and will not give you my name." That will definitely give me a one way ticket straight to jail.

Just.... wow. Could you seriously make less of a comparison?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 9):
can somebody point to the specific statute or regulation that spells out your obligation of producing ID for TSA?

I think you won't find one - but if you look hard enough, you will find a law allowing TSA to deny boarding, which by implication allows them to ask for ID or do anything else constitutional as a condition for boarding.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineEXMEMWIDGET From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
I wasn't aware the 4th Amendment had been repealed.

So are you saying that being asked to show ID and pass through a security screening process before you board a flight is a violation of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten us!


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5271 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Let's remember that boarding a commercial aircraft is a privilege and not a right. Thus, the airlines and the government are free to put any kind of restrictions. If you are drunk, you won't get on a plane. If you are a troublemaker, the airline has the right to put you an its no-fly list. So, it seems to me that if you don't have ID, you can be denied entry into the secure area.

Police are free to set up roadside checkpoints during holidays, to look for drunk drivers. Even if you are driving safely, all of your lights are working, you have valid license plates, and everyone in the car has their seat belts on, the police can still ask for your driver's license. If you forgot it, at the least, you will be told to move out of the driver's seat and let someone with a license on him or her drive. You could very well get a ticket for not having your licesne.

What I don't get is why Mocek wouldn't tell his name, since he had to be printed on his boarding pass. Anyone could claim that he forgot his ID. But, if someone is trying to get around the no-fly list, he could make up a name and claim he lost his ID (or that he got pulled over on a moving violation, and the offcer took his license). Asking the person's name and other information can help a law enforcement person decide who really forgot his ID versus who is making up a story.

While I agree with civil libertarians about the body scanners and groping, I think the jury got it wrong on this one.


User currently offlinetheducks From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

The whole point of being asked for ID is the government seeing who will stand up to them, and beating them down for it. They don't have a list they're checking against when you show it to them - they're just taking anyone who says no as a red flag. Same with getting into Federal Buildings. They're not checking against databases - you could be on the most wanted list and show real ID and get in.

Again with refusing an AIT (Advanced Imaging Technology / Nudievision) scan. If it was really needed for security, EVERYONE would be forced through it. They're just relying on the Gambler's Fallacy (that the outcome of previous random events influences the outcome of future random events) and then paying close attention to anyone who refuses the scans.

Remember folks, your TSA agents are sometimes hired from pizza box adverts.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting theducks (Reply 20):
They don't have a list they're checking against when you show it to them - they're just taking anyone who says no as a red flag.

Umm - the boarding pass you present to them at the same time?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetheducks From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
Umm - the boarding pass you present to them at the same time?

The one you printed out at home? Ok, they're checking against that. Visually, not electronically, so it could easily be altered. I believe they also make a coloured squiggle on it to show they've seen it.

[Edited 2011-01-23 16:03:11]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Quoting theducks (Reply 22):
Visually, not electronically, so it could easily be altered.

For purposes of your argument, what difference does it make?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):

I think you won't find one - but if you look hard enough, you will find a law allowing TSA to deny boarding, which by implication allows them to ask for ID or do anything else constitutional as a condition for boarding.

Hmm. So the legal basis for the requirements is in some elastic clause someplace.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 19):
Let's remember that boarding a commercial aircraft is a privilege and not a right.

In this context this is an absolutely meaningless statement, but repeated no less frequently for that. So far as the government is involved, and it clearly is involved, the Constitution very much still applies. If you look through relevant court cases, you will see the judges trying to decide what is reasonable under the Fourth Amendment. They have been extremely deferential to the government in their interpretation, however, to the extent that the Fourth is becoming dead.


25 EXMEMWIDGET : The airlines actually do have a list. Your name is flagged if your name appears on that list, book one way tickets, pay in certain methods (cash) and
26 junction : That's all there is to this and about 99 percent of all other court cases, but unfortunately the law applies to more then just those who are rational
27 theducks : Sure, the airlines might have a list (really it's sort of shared between the airlines and the TSA, if you're thinking of the Secure Flight initiative
28 theducks : Get third party to book/pay for ticket in an assumed name. Check in, print boarding pass in that name. Hide that boarding pass. Print second boarding
29 junction : The bar code on the boarding pass has the real name. It dosen't matter how you doctor up the printed name on the boarding pass, they know what was in
30 theducks : This relies on the TSA actually scanning the boarding pass (as opposed to the gate agents, but by that stage you're past the TSA for the most part) -
31 DocLightning : First of all, I'm not a lawyer, but here are my thoughts: Good thought, but I don't think that anything illegal is happening. It's true that you cann
32 Cubsrule : Real name is checked on international flights (the only flights that have seen serious terrorist threats in the past 8 years, by the way). Correct, a
33 tharanga : It's good to ground discussions of law in the actual law. Here is some case law, regarding consent. I will quote from United States vs Davis, 1973, N
34 Cubsrule : Yes, but I think it has to be. There's no way for Congress to act quickly or decisively enough to individually authorize every TSA initiative.
35 DocLightning : Then why is airport security legal at all? Or, rather, why is TSA airport security legal at all? I can see that an AIRLINE (not being part of the gov
36 tugger : "Unreasonable search and seizure", with the "search" aspect of it coming into effect due to there being no reasonable cause to "search" you, of which
37 tharanga : Yes, that's true of the bureaucracy in general. but each regulation of the executive branch has to be traceable to some authorization in statute law,
38 tharanga : Read the case law, including the case I cited. A whole string of court cases indicate that airport security is indeed subject to the Fourth Amendment
39 Cubsrule : All quite true, but it seems like your whole point is that TSA exceeds its mandate when it does something not explicitly authorized by Congress. What
40 tharanga : Actually, no, that isn't my point; I led my own argument away from where I intended. Forget Congress for a moment. The regulations surrounding TSA's
41 rfields5421 : It was a publicity stunt by a kook. Whom ever arrested the fellow messed up on their charges. He was not arrested by the TSA, but by local police. No
42 tharanga : Meaning, you don't have to show ID, if you intend to turn around, leave the airport, and not board a plane? That's consistent with what I thought. Bu
43 janmnastami : It's possible to board without showing ID, the TSA check your identity in a different way, but obviously you have to give them some information (name
44 UAL747DEN : I dont really care to read all of these posts but I can tell you for a fact that no ID is needed to fly. I was able to fly about 4 days a week for abo
45 remcor : One thing I find interesting (and in no way am I directing this at you Maverick) is that, in general, the demographic of the people who are against i
46 pygmalion : actually no they dont. They can only do a more stringent screening. There is no requirement to have ID in the US. You can pay cash (legal tender), us
47 DocLightning : This is what alarms me. Enough case law and we could get to a point where it would be "legal" to stop people on the street and search them.
48 Cubsrule : How?
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