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DL And The IAM  
User currently offlineNWAdeicer From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 173 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

Received a letter from the IAM today. In it the IAM talked about re-run elections and so forth. The one paragraph that caught my attention is the following.

"If the Machinists Union did not pursue election interference charges against Delta, not only would the pension be gone, but jobs in the 38 non-hub stations that are guaranteed in the IAM contracts would be outsourced. Countless full-time and part-time jobs in MSP, DTW and MEM would be downgraded to Ready Reserve, losing ALL company benefits except flight benefits in the process"


Now I was taken back a bit by that statement. I work in a hub and hear the occasional rumor now and then but nothing as black and white as this. I am curious if DL will offer a rebuttal to this statement denying it or some other wording.

Clearly someone is not being forthcoming in their truthfulness. Where did the IAM get this information. Either the IAM is bluffing to get more votes or DL isn't being truthful in their original statement of "No frontline jobs to be eliminated" I do remember being told by a NW manager that if you were a PT ESE with NW you would remain that after the merger, not change to a RR.

There is also talk about the profit sharing checks and that PMNW people will get basically half of what the PMDL people will get.

Rumors, rumors, rumors. Be nice to get some clarification.


I miss the Red Tail
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting NWAdeicer (Thread starter):
Clearly someone is not being forthcoming in their truthfulness. Where did the IAM get this information. Either the IAM is bluffing to get more votes

That's all this is. The IAM would have no way of knowing what DL's plans are to begin with. While some of what the IAM is predicting is likely to happen, it would be on a far smaller scale than what the IAM said in that letter. I think I can sum up the motivation behind that letter... D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-E!


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

I wonder if this letter would qualify as "interferance" in regards to the "laboratory conditions" that are supposed to be maintained if the elections are re-run?

Sure looks like it, to me.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4151 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I wonder if this letter would qualify as "interferance" in regards to the "laboratory conditions" that are supposed to be maintained if the elections are re-run?

Sure looks like it, to me.

I doubt they even care at this point. They know they aren't going to win even in the unlikely event of a re-vote. This is likely just a shot across DL's bow on their way out the door, rile the union employees up one last time and leave DL to have to deal with the mess.


User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4102 times:
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The letter isn't surprising as I'm sure they sense a growing sense of frustration among a lot of the PMNW folks that the IAM is depriving them of pay increases and a richer profit sharing check by drawing this process out.

Nor is the tone surprising; for over two years now the IAM has been trying to scare people into believing that Delta wants to outsource everything, fire everyone, cut their pay, terminate the pension, turn them into a RR, close hubs, the list goes on.

Perhaps next we'll be hearing that Delta is going to kill your dog, burn your house down, and sell your children to cannibals.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

I too have heard the rumor of them outsourcing all stations, no whether that means gate and ground or just ground I don't know. Considering Delta has mainline upstairs people in most cities. However, before the merger just about all under-wing was outsourced at DL to DGS and other companies. As for what the IAM says is true or not, I don't know.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 5):
However, before the merger just about all under-wing was outsourced at DL to DGS and other companies.

Except at SLC, ATL, etc.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 5):
However, before the merger just about all under-wing was outsourced at DL to DGS and other companies.

Ummm....no.

Most of the below wing outsourcing took place in 1994 during "7.5". Then 10+ years after that, nothing. Then during the bankruptcy proceedings, a handful of others were cut in a cost savings measures (they have since been reinstated). I think SEA, DFW, and PHX were among them.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4263 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

This is nothing more than desperate scare tactics from IAM, and I don't think anyone is buying it. From a logistical standpoint, DL would be committing operational suicide if they actually did some of what IAM claims they want to do.

User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 7):
I think SEA, DFW, and PHX were among them.

That was the result of NW having mainline people below wing which were part of that IAM list. LAS, SFO, SEA, DFW, PHX, PHL and several others were a result of this. All the PMNW stations that had mainline folks wen't "back".

Quoting mayor (Reply 6):
Except at SLC, ATL, etc.

Which is why I said just about all



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 3386 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I wonder if this letter would qualify as "interferance" in regards to the "laboratory conditions" that are supposed to be maintained if the elections are re-run?

I doubt it would meet any kind of legal threshold, but I'm only basing that on what the OP wrote, since I haven't received mine yet.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 4):
scare people into believing that Delta wants to outsource everything, fire everyone, cut their pay, terminate the pension, turn them into a RR, close hubs, the list goes on.

The IAMNPF would/will be gone. The frozen ones live. Not sure which one the letter refers to specifically.

As for outsourcing? People are quite concerned about their futures, and a lot of that is based on DL's (recent) track record. Yes, they have been very good about maintaining AW employees, but not so much on the BW side. Remember, it wasn't *that* long ago that NW wanted to close 'em all except the 3 hubs; that's still very fresh in people's minds. Will it happen? Dunno, but the lack of a binding legal agreement regarding scope tends to give one pause. The good thing is that we currently enjoy a productivity advantage over other legacy carriers (at least AA, anyway), and I would hope they keep that in mind. We used to be able to see how each station was doing budget-wise as well; can't do that anymore, but I would like to think that as long as a place is well ran, it stays open. Some will laugh me off of here, but there is a value added in having M/L people staffed. There's a vested interest/institutional knowledge that simply doesn't occur with the DGS or ATS' of the world.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Considering Delta has mainline upstairs people in most cities.

True.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 7):
Most of the below wing outsourcing took place in 1994 during "7.5". Then 10+ years after that, nothing. Then during the bankruptcy proceedings, a handful of others were cut in a cost savings measures (they have since been reinstated). I think SEA, DFW, and PHX were among them.

There were ~13 left. The ones that reopened post-merger to DL employees were: ORD, SFO, LAS, PHX, RSW, PDX and DFW. It should be noted that all were staffed with PMNW M/L. I will take DL's talk of insourcing much more seriously when points new (or remade available) to both groups are opened. CLT, RDU, BDL, and MIA come to mind. I'll be even more impressed when they take seriously the concept of cross utilization in some of the smaller cities where it'd make sense (COS springs to mind here).

Just my .02.

Guess I better go check my mailbox...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 9):
Which is why I said just about all

Again, wrong.

Just about all took place in 1994. Not just before the merger.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 11):
Again, wrong.

Just about all took place in 1994. Not just before the merger.

I also said before the merger, not just before the merger.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):
will take DL's talk of insourcing much more seriously when points new (or remade available) to both groups are opened. CLT, RDU, BDL, and MIA come to mind.

In the maintenance department, didn't they just go through all the expense and governmental troubles to upgrade the MSP hangar so that they can start doing insourcing work in MSP?

I agree that DL should look at more below-wing cities to insource. I do think that they can't now, for fear of "tampering with the IAM vote." I can see DL announcing that they are reopening MIA, and the IAM going bat-ape over that. As soon as the NMB rules one way or another, I wouldn't be surprised if places like MIA, RDU, ORF went back to in-house.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):
'll be even more impressed when they take seriously the concept of cross utilization in some of the smaller cities where it'd make sense (COS springs to mind here).

I don't know if DL has ever done that, at least in the modern era. Perhaps back in the '50s or '60s, or so. That is more a NW thing, no? If so, hopefully it will also be looked at, and if it makes sense, then go that route. I think DL learned some very valuable and expensive out-sourcing lessons these past few years, which they are not keen in repeating. The more they can keep in-house, the better it is for the bottom line.

[Edited 2011-01-24 11:18:59]

User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 3386 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 13):
In the maintenance department, didn't they just go through all the expense and governmental troubles to upgrade the MSP hangar so that they can start doing insourcing work in MSP?

Yep. MRO/Component overhaul is a good thing.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 13):
I agree that DL should look at more below-wing cities to outsource.

Freudian slip?

I really really hope that was a typo.  
Quoting ocracoke (Reply 13):
That is more a NW thing, no?

As far as I know, yes.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 13):
That is more a NW thing, no?

Yes most of the NW stations outside of hubs or busier cities were like this, in fact these were the outsourced cities. COS, GFK, FAR, MOT, BIS, just to name a few were such stations where the people would do both the bags and gates, its done like this at most places, and in cities where Regional Elite is at for the ground handling its done this way too. It's really more efficient.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 12):
I also said before the merger, not just before the merger.

You implied just before the merger. Otherwise, you would have said ....


However, before the merger just about all under-wing was ALREADY outsourced at DL to DGS and other companies

The way you wrote it makes it sound like DL did one big outsourcing bang just before the merger.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):
Some will laugh me off of here, but there is a value added in having M/L people staffed. There's a vested interest/institutional knowledge that simply doesn't occur with the DGS or ATS' of the world.

I hope no one laughs at this, this might be the most rational statement you've made in this thread.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Ask yourself this question:

With or without a union, is there really any more or less job security anno 2011???

NW has proven in 2005 with union maintenance that it didn't.

We really don't know what DL will or won't do in the future. We don't know the economic conditions in 2015 either.
To use "union" as a crutch for job security has to be one of the biggest fakes out there this day and age.

IAM shows tremendous weakness continuing this fear-mongering.

Here's my fear-mongering: you want outsourcing quicker? I'd say vote IAM. Now you got on a poor footing with management and they have no incentive to have your back.
See? It goes both ways. Continually.

My suggestion is to give DL an honest shot. They haven't gotten one from PMNW folks. (actually they did, but IAM is delaying it now).
DL has a huge incentive to keep employees happy.

Gotta love the last name of the person that wrote the letter.

[Edited 2011-01-24 12:17:08]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineN901WA From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

Also In Line MTC they just reopened MIA and PDX. Ebid shows them right now.

User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 19):
My suggestion is to give DL an honest shot. They haven't gotten one from PMNW folks. (actually they did, but IAM is delaying it now).
DL has a huge incentive to keep employees happy.

Agreed, and if anything were to happen they could re-unionize if need be. But I see the points on either side.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 13):
I don't know if DL has ever done that, at least in the modern era. Perhaps back in the '50s or '60s, or so. That is more a NW thing, no?

Possibly the 70s, too. When I worked at ORD in the 70s, DL still had an operation at MDW and the agents worked the counter, gates and the ramp. There may have been some smaller cities in the south that did it this way, also, however when I transferred to SHV in '80, there was above and below wing. I went to SLC in '82 and they had 5 flights a day but there was above wing as well as below. While most smaller stations probably didn't cross utilize between above and below, they probably cross utilized in other ways.....for instance, we cleaned a/c, de-iced, did GSE repair and I even did some vacation relief in cargo, all between flights, of course.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 3386 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 22):
for instance, we cleaned a/c, de-iced, did GSE repair

We used to do most of that as well. We still deice of course, but GSE and cleaning are farmed out...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

Quoting N901WA (Reply 20):
Also In Line MTC they just reopened MIA and PDX. Ebid shows them right now

Also last year we reopened PHX, SAN, PHL.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 24):
Also last year we reopened PHX, SAN, PHL.

I believe MEM you can add to that list, after the merger they got rid of line maint there to a contractor, but after numerous problems they are going/ have gone back in-house



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 ericaasen : Please oh please oh please I hope they reopen ORD! I've been saying they could split time between ORD and MDW. Base them at ORD, but give them MDW ba
26 Post contains images mayor : Probably be quicker to fly them from ATL to MDW than drive from ORD especially at certain times of the day.
27 burnsie28 : Better yet MSP or DTW.
28 FlyASAGuy2005 : They're noiw approved for MRO work. This should ease the load a bit on ATL.
29 DLATLOpsSup : It'll be nice when they just go away and give up this pipe-dream. Don't they know they need to be worried about the Teamsters (a real CREDIBLE union)
30 Dalmd88 : That is not how it is being looked at. MSP is for new business. Possibly AB work.
31 N901WA : I hear the same thing. MSP is going to do AB work. If I remember right the Hawaiian A330 Heavy Checks are going to MSP.
32 burnsie28 : Interesting, because doesn't DL do their heavy checks overseas, at HAECO.
33 wjcandee : Haven't looked at it in a while, but when I was in law school, one fundamental point of labor law was made clear to us, in a very general way: Employ
34 Post contains images DELTA7478 : LOL I needed that today, with all the weather delays, anyway, the IAM doest't get it. I just wonder how long will these drag on, with the NMB make an
35 SkyPriorityDTW : I'm still not sure why DTW has Regional Elite handling the B/C Concourse flights both above and below-wing and also handling any non-Compass (DL hand
36 bhmdiversion : IMHO, DTW is a cluster. RE staff there doesn't know anything, nor ever go beyond A*B, or even something even simpler. Mainline should take the whole t
37 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I hear that line more now than I can even count. 2 years ago, I would have said the same thing. Now, knowing what I know, there were many behind the
38 flyibaby : I agree that DL should seriously take the larger cities, especially like RDU and bring their own staff in house. That station has just become a zoo a
39 nwaesc : That, combined with the steps taken in CVG and SLC were good starts; now it's time for the rest of the hubs... In my experience, you are very much an
40 mayor : I have to agree with Kevin on this one. In SLC, we cut back in cargo during "7.5" and contracted out the warehouse and the freight runners. Big, big
41 KFitz : I think the only fake is the fact that this talking point is still being perpetuated on here other spaces on the "internet" as if it were factual. Sp
42 N901WA : Sorry KFitz, not sure who you were quoting, but I didn't say those things.
43 SkyPriorityDTW : Agreed. It's not so much that they don't want to do things beyond their normal job duties, it's that they aren't aware of the array of things that th
44 Post contains images mayor : Apparently, the majority of workers at DL don't agree with you.
45 Dalmd88 : I'm betting its a C-type check. 5 to ten day visit type of thing.
46 peanuts : Hilarious. In my lifetime, I'm still waiting on a well-reasoned argument coming from Berkeley. Still waiting... To rephrase your paragraph my way: It
47 T5towbar : Amen to that!!!! Outsourcing should only be used in situations where the flight count is small, and if it is cost effective. In a hub, it should be A
48 goldenstate : Your statement suggests that unions are an all-encompassing, automatic guarantee of job protection. However, it would appear to be invalidated by the
49 FlyASAGuy2005 : I would agree. I have no knowledge of the operation so I can't agree or disagree that it is a zoo but the place has gotten pretty busy over the past
50 Post contains images peanuts : Lol. Forgive me All in jest. I've heard too many unreasonable voices coming from that direction over the years. Maybe because they scream the loudest
51 Post contains images goldenstate : No offense taken. In my opinion, there is an interesting parallel between Delta and this particular institution. At both places there is an angry min
52 T5towbar : Let me clear that up...... in a major hub, Express should be handled by M/L. I didn't say anything about flying; other support staff; or boarding pri
53 mayor : IIRC, DGS has to bid for any contracts with DL just as they would for any outside work. At one time in SLC, they were doing the mail sorting, then th
54 brandonfs88 : DTW is the only "problem" station for RE, MSP is greatly run operation for them as well as most of the spokes. Keep in mind DL moved a lot of the con
55 atlengineer : I have been reading this thread with interest. The only comment I would like to add is: "How do you spell EASTERN, Pan AM"? How are those workers doi
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