hannahpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 128 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3534 times:
My appologies if this has been discussed before, I checked, but could not find much information. With a population of more than 1.3 Billion people, I was wondering if AI would ever order the 747-8I or the A380. The are one of the fastest growing countries/economies. Could we see any VLAs for them in the near future???
Their 744's are starting to age, and I heard that they want to get rid of their 77Ls (why?). I know that they have 27 787-8 on order; just wondering if they were going to get anything bigger?
bizmark03 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3504 times:
Air India is not in a position right now to order any aircraft. I dont know how can they even afford to buy so many 787's(Govt. bailouts). I guess they have some recovering to do. Also if there was a need for VLA's in the Indian market right now EK would be operating scheduled A380 flights to India . IT has one A380 on order though.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1325 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
There will undoubtedly come a time when the Indian market has matured to the point VLAs are required. When that happens is a matter of opinion, and while "within this decade" may sound optimistic, it's not an unreasonable guess taking into account the growth of the Indian market over the last decade.
Read somewhere the Indian middle-class population alone is roughly the same as the total for the US. Food for thought.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
gr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3098 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3314 times:
Well, AI has operated the 742/743/744 for 40 years now, so it's not as though India has never seen any VLAs....
As for the future, I think with the advent of the 787 (AI and 9W), there will be more point to point flights rather than the focus on BOM and DEL hubs as in the past........there will be more flights originating in cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Kolkatta, etc. and flying non-stop to European and American cities.....it could possibly turn out to be a model more like what we see in the US today, where in spite of such a large market, hardly any airlines seem to need VLAs.......
I guess, sooner or later, some VLA orders could start appearing when the market justifies it......
gr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3098 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3279 times:
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 4): Umm...presidential charters right now, that's about it! They don't really operate the 747s anywhere, though the 77W are pretty close!
AI's 744s are currently used only on India-Gulf sectors, having been withdrawn from the long distance Europe, US and Japan sectors....they are also put to use on the VIP charters for the govt., as mentioned......but their main role is on the short haul Gulf sectors for the time being....
Why not BOM/DEL to LHR and CDG or even BOM-JFK and BOM-PVG?
I would think that eventually AI and 9W might be deploying VLAs from BOM to the major urban and financial centres of the world: London, Paris, New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai. And maybe even Seoul, Tokyo, Singapore and Toronto.
And that would just be from BOM. I'd foresee a much more ambitious list for DEL.
I don't know why people think it's not possible for AI and 9W to fill A380s.
If EK can fill two A380s a day (in short order) to the likes of Manchester, surely several destinations can support daily A380 service to BOM and DEL?
Why? The biggest market from India is to the Middle east and particularly Saudi Arabia.
Quoting ytz (Reply 17): I would think that eventually AI and 9W might be deploying VLAs from BOM to the major urban and financial centres of the world: London, Paris, New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai. And maybe even Seoul, Tokyo, Singapore and Toronto.
Eventually maybe, but still I'm skeptical. The infrastructure of aviation in India has just come to an acceptable stage and that AI has at least defined a hub at DEL.
Quoting ytz (Reply 17): I don't know why people think it's not possible for AI and 9W to fill A380s.
We have EK, QR, EY, BA, LH all siphoning off traffic from India to the west. And it's not that India has infinite traffic going to these centers. All the above mentioned markets have already reached saturation or are about to do so.
Quoting ytz (Reply 17): If EK can fill two A380s a day (in short order) to the likes of Manchester, surely several destinations can support daily A380 service to BOM and DEL?
I can't believe you are saying that? Now of I ask you if EK can fill 3 weekly to A380 to YYZ so why can't AC fill a 3 weekly A380 to DXB ... what would you say?
Between BOM/DEL and LHR there are 56 weekly flights served by AI, 9W, IT, BA, VS. To SIN various Indian points are connected by airlines like AI, 9W, IT, IX, MI, SQ, TR, QF. The competition is pretty strong. We do not have the luxury of Canada where our tier 2 airports are protected nor we are a country with a single airline. Most of your prominent A380 operators like EK, SQ, AF, LH are either a single hub airline or they do not have a strong competing airline. In a market like India, A380s can be justified by the already long established hub carriers and in the short term only LH and EK are likely to operate them to India (even EK said they are not in a great hurry to bring the A380 to India)
A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1986 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
Quoting ojas (Reply 18): I can't believe you are saying that? Now of I ask you if EK can fill 3 weekly to A380 to YYZ so why can't AC fill a 3 weekly A380 to DXB ... what would you say?
Because DXB would be a terminus for AC. And nobody (well relative to the amount of pax EK carries) really wants to fly to Dubai, they just want to fly through it.
That's not quite the same situation for AI/9W/IT. BOM is a destination and a hub in its own right. There should be tons of demand between BOM and other hubs. And certainly the fact that there's 56 flights per week between LHR and BOM shows that there's no shortage of demand. Maybe an A380 would be a good way to drop CASM and imperil the competition. ...that's just the enthusiast in me talking though.
Quoting ojas (Reply 18): We do not have the luxury of Canada where our tier 2 airports are protected
That made me laugh. Actually, the whole reason the UAE got into trouble was because they wanted to ram as much as possible into the major centres. And mostly YYZ. EK was refusing to start up anywhere else, if they didn't get daily to YYZ. They didn't even want to go to YUL (which has a large Arab minority...albeit Lebanese Arab minority). It's not that our Tier 2 airports are protected. It's just that the Gulf airlines don't wants to fly to them. You can bet if EK offered daily service to YUL, they would have got it in a heartbeat.
Quoting ojas (Reply 18): even EK said they are not in a great hurry to bring the A380 to India
Really? This from a carrier that use a 77W like a 737? I always thought the reason they can't go bigger is the seat count restriction in the bilat. I get the feeling that if they had a choice, they might consider using an A380 to drop their casm even further.
ojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2970 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2139 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
That's not quite the same situation for AI/9W/IT. BOM is a destination and a hub in its own right. There should be tons of demand between BOM and other hubs. And certainly the fact that there's 56 flights per week between LHR and BOM shows that there's no shortage of demand
Had the useless politicians in India had dome vision for civil aviation, trust me by now Air India would have had A380s flying to LHR, DXB, JFK, HKG and even YYZ. But with the civil aviation sector in the dumps along with the national carrier, we were at the mercy of foreign carriers. It is too late now to order A380s like EK and build a mega terminal at DEL with 500 B777s and 200 A380s. Air India today has issues to fill the B747s, Jet Airways barely can fill their B777s. There is a long way for the Indian carriers to go with the appropriate HELP from the govt, because the biggest enemy of the Indian carriers is the Govt. Of India.
We have seen far more protectionism and it STILL exists today. For example till 2008, no foreign airline was allowed to fly to CCJ. That was Air India's most lucrative sector CCJ - Middle East. As of now IXE is protected from foreign airlines.
Quoting ytz (Reply 19): You can bet if EK offered daily service to YUL, they would have got it in a heartbeat.
Some people tell me EK was not offered daily YUL.
Quoting ytz (Reply 19): Really? This from a carrier that use a 77W like a 737?
India is very close to Dubai than Germany or Canada. a BOM - DXB flight is barely 2.5 hrs flying time and the longest flight to a point in India is to CCU. EK would increase frequencies than add A380s. Let me give you an insight on their operations.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8324 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1862 times:
Why would Air India to order A380 when they wan to sell 777's ? AI needs to get its house in order and the 787's delivered before an A380 get ordered. The 777's are doing what they are supposed to do for AI, teh 77W seats 339 passengers, does AI really need a bigger plane ? IF they need more capacity then remove the First Class cabin, does any meaningful quantity of passengers really pay for AI First Class or is it governmen types going to London and New York for free. AI would be better with a upgraded J class and y.
COEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1838 times:
Quoting hannahpa (Reply 10): My bad. I should have done a little more research. Are these 77L routes? How long is it from JFK, ORD to BOM or DEL?
JFK, EWR, or ORD to BOM or DEL can be flows even with a 772ER as is done by some on those routes. AI uses 77W and 77L.
Quoting ojas (Reply 18): Competition, both direct and indirect. BOM - JFK failed .... for both DL and AI ... BOM - PVG failed for Shnaghai airlines.
What is curious is that BOM - JFK fails and yet BOM - EWR supports two non-stop 777 flights per day (AI and CO) plus a 9W one stop. Actually EWR - BOM is the 10th busiest international route out of EWR according to PANYNJ.
: Not quite true. They never even asked. All they wanted was daily to Toronto, followed by dailies to Calgary and Vancouver. There were rumours they we
: I don't think, we can expect any Indian airline to have VLA's until we get our airports in shape. DEL is getting there and hopefully BOM will also hav
: The carriers of DXB have 54200 seats per week into India of which they utilize 98%. EK uses 100% of their available capacity. So if they upgrade to a
: So when EK operated the special A380 flight to DEL, they must have exceeded their allowed capacity or did they leave half the seats empty?
: Yes but there are too many constraints attached to most of them and honestly CO, AA do not have any other aircraft which is why they are stuck with t
: Huh???? How can a 748I NOT be a VLA???? This begs the question, what IS the definition of a VLA???? 467 seats is not a VLA???
: As a follow-up to my thread starter; I didn't realize that air travel in India isn't as robust as other developing countries, such as China. I just as
: I don't think robust is the right word. More like it's fragmented between so many carriers that only a handful of them can justify using A380s on a f
: Thats because EK leverages a major hub called DXB.....AI traditionally supported the BOM/DEL model, with passengers from all over India having to con
: I was on that flight. It was full to capacity! EK had secured special permission from DGCA for that flight. They obliged AAI by getting the 380 for t
: All those 167 will be narrow body operations. So in terms of utilized capacity it may be approximately 60-65% of permitted capacity. brgds//Vimanav
: Oops it is 161 weekly flights, my bad AI/IC :: 53 weekly flights => 8,838 seats approx. AIX :: 52 weekly flights => 9,672 seats approx. 9W :: 3