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QF, Why Too Many Aircraft Troubles?  
User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8687 times:

There are far too many Aircraft Troubles with the airline whether its Faulty Engines, Oxygen Tank Failiures, Faulty Systems etc. Why too many? I am starting to loose my reputation for the airline

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9031 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8646 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Thread starter):
There are far too many Aircraft Troubles with the airline whether its Faulty Engines, Oxygen Tank Failiures, Faulty Systems etc.

I think if anyone were to have an objective look at their operation compared to worldwide standards, they would statistically be a lot better than a lot of operators.

Quoting ZKNCL (Thread starter):
Why too many?

It is not "too" many. The issue is the Australian press using every little incidents to sell newspapers and generate income. A lot of incidents happen every day all around the world, the vast majority of them never make it into the papers as they are not "Qantas".

Quoting ZKNCL (Thread starter):
I am starting to loose my reputation for the airline

I think that is unfair, all of these so called "incidents" have been very professionally handled by the front line crew and staff. Operationally Qantas have good systems in place to reassure passengers families, protect passengers onto other flights, providing food, accommodation, hotels etc.

Other airlines in Australia if faced with the same sort of situation would just refund the passengers airfares, and leave the logistics of reorganising flights, where to stay, what to eat, and out of pocket expresses up to the passenger.

When purchasing a ticket on a full service airline, one often forgets the "service" the airline provides on the ground, and when you compare the ticket prices, the the "insurance" of the services a "full service" airline provides when the chips are down I think is often overlooked.

I think Qantas is a very robust brand, and how they have been able to deal with these incidents is very positive for the brand.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8569 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
It is not "too" many. The issue is the Australian press using every little incidents to sell newspapers and generate income. A lot of incidents happen every day all around the world, the vast majority of them never make it into the papers as they are not "Qantas".

Bingo. I like to think of it like this: the newspapers/tv networks are doing the equivalent of covering a serious car accident, then over the following months dedicating similar levels of coverage to flat tyres, oil leaks, and blown headlights. The difference is that because a lot of people have experience with the operation of their own cars, they'd realise very quickly that the reports are being crazily sensationalized. Unfortunately because they don't have the same experience with operating aircraft, they don't see through the hysteria, and assume every Qantas/Virgin/Aeroflot/[insert name of airline to have had major safety issue in the preceding 6 months] flight is seconds from the wings falling off. The same thing happened on this side of the Tasman after the December 2002 unconfined engine failure on ZK-NBC (you might remember the months of reports of minor events), and I have no doubt it happens elsewhere in the world for much the same reason. I really wish there was some level of standards media outlets had to meet which would avoid this level of sensationalism. Maybe an airline will tire of the overblown coverage one day and sue for defamation?

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineesdex From Australia, joined Jan 2011, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8431 times:

ZKNCL, if you have genuine concerns about Qantas, or any other Australian airline, why not download ATSB incident reports (they're free!) and read them. You'll learn far more than reading from newspapers and you can make up your own mind about what's going on at QF. At the end of the day if you feel more comfortable on another airline, then fly them instead.

User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8369 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
It is not "too" many. The issue is the Australian press using every little incidents to sell newspapers and generate income. A lot of incidents happen every day all around the world, the vast majority of them never make it into the papers as they are not "Qantas".

Exactly right. The Australian media has gone crazy.

A normal, sedate return to the airport is characterised as as a plane "plunging" 8000ft or more with terrified passengers on board, with the obligatory "frequent flying" passenger chanting that they'll never fly Qantas again, blah blah blah...

At the end of the day, Qantas is still a great airline to fly with.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5689 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8297 times:

I expect to see a headline sometime in the Sydney Morning Herald screaming "Qantas coffee machine fails in flight". The media are all over the airline liike a rash ever since the oxygen tank exploded in flight a couple of years ago, unfortunately.

User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8193 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
I think Qantas is a very robust brand, and how they have been able to deal with these incidents is very positive for the brand.

Really, I know heaps people who never want to fly the airline due to this, I posted this thread not to say something like "It's a bad airline, all they do is trouble passengers" I'm really saying that all these common problems happen to be with Qantas not anyone else and by my Standards I think they are safe and never loose passengers like all those Tupolev 154's that keep on crashing or any other jets but Qantas is that unlucky airline that gets lots of the publicity with minor incedents. And yes I do argree that Qantas deserves better respect from the media. but the main question re-phrased is "Why is Qantas getting too many minor incedents? Is it the publicity? or the airline?"

[Edited 2011-01-26 01:33:28]

User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8157 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 4):

Exactly right. The Australian media has gone crazy.

It is not just Australian media. These days it is company policy at most newspapers to dramatize everything and make it sound like a lot of people almost lost their lives.

A Dutch newspaper "De Telegraaf" ran a story yesterday about the Qantas 744 that had pressurisation problems. The article was worded in a way that you would think the pilot put the plane in an 80 degree dive and pulled up just in time to miss flipper jumping up from the ocean.

 
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
I expect to see a headline sometime in the Sydney Morning Herald screaming "Qantas coffee machine fails in flight".

LOL, that's funny!


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7984 times:

The poster was only asking- quite rightly! It's not a personal thing about Qantas. If British Airways, American Airlines or indeed any other large operator had so many reported incidents in the press, people would wonder.
I can't remember all of them, but I know there were 2 dives- one reported this week and another last year , then the A380 problems, then there was an incident on a Qantaslink 717, an engine fire on a 744 , a 767 with abnormal engine vibrations, smoke in the cockpit on a flight to Argentina, the 744 engine which exploded on take off at SFO etc etc.
These are actually quite a lot of incidents for a world class airline operating a modern fleet of aircraft and as I said before, it was any other airline people would still be concerned. I can see the usual flood of members, protective of their national carrier rushing in but let's look at it objectively and asked why is Qantas so unlucky in having all of these problems?



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7811 times:

I think Zeke's reply was pretty well thought out and objective.

You could scour the Aviation Herald for plenty of other incidents:

http://avherald.com/h?list=&opt=256

I'm surprised the media doesn't just watch that site every day.


User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Thread starter):
There are far too many Aircraft Troubles with the airline whether its Faulty Engines, Oxygen Tank Failiures, Faulty Systems etc. Why too many? I am starting to loose my reputation for the airline

I have no problems flying Qantas and never will. The only reason the public know what is happening is because the Press are jumping on the bandwagon as they like to and printing it to make a few bucks.

Its a massive airline, with a fleet they fly a lot of longhaul flights. There are always going to be some tech issues with a fleet. Every airline in the world has this problem, the only difference is that the papers in those airlines countries are not printing every little thing.


User currently onlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting esdex (Reply 3):
ZKNCL, if you have genuine concerns about Qantas, or any other Australian airline, why not download ATSB incident reports (they're free!) and read them. You'll learn far more than reading from newspapers and you can make up your own mind about what's going on at QF. At the end of the day if you feel more comfortable on another airline, then fly them instead.

DO that and run a simple numerical comparison. I did it some years ago and the trend was dead flat. Would be very interested in an update.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2434 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 9):
You could scour the Aviation Herald for plenty of other incidents:

http://avherald.com/h?list=&opt=256

I'm surprised the media doesn't just watch that site every day.

I agree, Av Herald is the best site for objective information.

Av Herald lists two Qantas incidences yesterday, January 25. On January 25 a 737-400 lost cabin pressure due to an air conditioner failure near Melbourne, and a 747-400 had engine fuel comsumption issues and had to return to Bangkok. A replacement engine is being sent to Bangkok.

737-400:
http://avherald.com/h?article=436bcf74&opt=256
747-400:
http://avherald.com/h?article=436cae28&opt=256



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7682 times:

Also another reason of why these minor "faults" keep on happening is that most of these aircraft are getting too old and breaking down and none of this wouldn't have happened if the A380 and 787 didn't get delayed.

User currently offlineMYT321 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7648 times:

Never flown QF yet, but due to in March. Five flights on three types and I have no concerns whatsoever.


"The A380 is coming to MAN"
User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 578 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7608 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):

Disagree. The aircraft are not too old when you compare with some other airlines, past and present... There was a post by a chap on another thread who compared the age of aircraft in Qantas to those say in the fleet of Northwest/Delta (DC-9's reaching 40 years old and operating quite well). And the conclusion was... maintenance.

You can have an old aircraft thet flies well beyond its years providing the maintenance is top notch. Now, I'm not saying it isn't at Qantas but, with all of these problems surely there has to be one root cause? Perhaps that's why the media is banging on about issues... they know someting we don't.



146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7575 times:

Quoting btblue (Reply 15):
The aircraft are not too old when you compare with some other airlines, past and present... There was a post by a chap on another thread who compared the age of aircraft in Qantas to those say in the fleet of Northwest/Delta (DC-9's reaching 40 years old and operating quite well)

The DC-9 was not a very good example as they last far longer than 747's and 767's that have been used as complete workhorses a DC-3 would have been a good example. And I agree that maintenance really helps older aircraft.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6418 posts, RR: 38
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):

As if the 787s were going to replace the 737s in the first place.

I have no problems flying Qantas and I'll continue flying them domestically within Australia for their professional service and reliability.

You need to understand how the media try to twist stories just to sell themselves. When you do come to understanding this fact, you'll start taking bits from the media with a grain of salt and ask youself if there's something they're either keeping from you or manipulating to make their story sound more 'convincing'.

[Edited 2011-01-26 04:09:38]


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):
Also another reason of why these minor "faults" keep on happening is that most of these aircraft are getting too old and breaking down and none of this wouldn't have happened if the A380 and 787 didn't get delayed.

I don't think that age alone is the reason for all the problems. American Airlines has a fleet with a lot of relatively old aircraft yet they don't have all these problems.

Maybe the operational use of the QF planes is the reason they have more problems. Their 744's are really pushed to the limit on most flights. The engines run at full power more often and for longer than most other 744's. Also the planes spend a lot of time in hot climates so the AC is running whenever it is on the ground. So it seems logical their AC and engines develop more issues as they are more heavily used than on other planes. That in combination with the wear and tear on the plane as it gets older means they are going to have more problems unless QF is going to do a lot of (mostly unnecessary) preventative maintenance.

Qantas is still one of the safest airlines in the world and that is not going to change anytime soon. But we can expect more problems with Qantas planes as they are starting to wear out due to the heavy use. It is not economically viable to refurbish and/or D check a plane that you are going to replace in a couple of years. So they will keep on flying the way they are and have the occasional problem until all the new planes are delivered.

Other airlines do the same. I once made a TATL flight on a US airways 767 that was ready to meet it's maker. The paint job looked more like an American Airlines plane, the kerosine fumes in the cabin were worse than normal during start-up. The emergency lights were flickering on and off and while taxiing the pilot decided to pull over and have the engines checked because of an unusual noise. Comforting -> no, Safe? -> probably


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9031 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7524 times:

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 12):

I agree, Av Herald is the best site for objective information.

Not really, like most sites of their type, they generally only report what is in the media. A lot more reports go into the local aviation authorities than will ever appear in media reports.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7503 times:

Quoting bj87 (Reply 18):
Qantas is still one of the safest airlines in the world

Correct and I predict that they will never loose a passenger in a long time  


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):

Not really, like most sites of their type, they generally only report what is in the media. A lot more reports go into the local aviation authorities than will ever appear in media reports.

And thank heavens that the media doesn't see all of them. Reporting of happenings is one thing, but the media are going a step too far. But the point to Av Herald is that it proves that other airlines have incidents too, not just Qantas.

I remember speaking to a QF engineer who asked me what I was doing at a QF event - to which I replied, just a photographer, I don't write the stories.


User currently offlinePalmjet From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1223 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 6840 times:

Quote:
I am starting to loose my reputation for the airline

Sorry, I am confused. How can you loose your reputation for the airline? Is your reputation linked to Qantas' in some way?

I think you mean loose your confidence in the airline?



Eastern - Number One To The Sun
User currently offlineAeolus From Mexico, joined Aug 2007, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6333 times:

Maybe they just want to make sure their crews know how to handle emergencies     

Might it have to do with the airframe age as well?

-Aeolus



Flying under the clouds above!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
It is not "too" many. The issue is the Australian press using every little incidents to sell newspapers and generate income. A lot of incidents happen every day all around the world, the vast majority of them never make it into the papers as they are not "Qantas".

I agree completely. Delta probably has 10-15 events per day which could generate a news story, but either the media doesn't find out or doesn't want to print the same aborted landing story every day. When an event happens that shakes confidence, the media starts digging for similar stories to drive the image home that there is a problem and you better keep reading to see how much worse it is going to get. Typical fear-mongering, media (and politicians).

On a typical day, an airline like United with a lot of planes probably has 2 or 3 incidents with drunk passengers, two+ diversions, a couple of inflight mechanical problems of varying difficulty, several security issues, and various employee related problems (the more common ones are: crew not showing up, pilots falling asleep in the cockpit, airplanes getting hit with vehicles, slide deployments, etc.).


25 DH2Beaver : Curiously there are other Qantas incidents that don't get mentioned at all. I've been delayed several times by 'engine failure' either to or from Canb
26 enilria : Minor incidents don't get immediately reported to the government if at all. It probably requires a passenger message to the media. Newspapers don't u
27 Goblin211 : I never pay attention to what any media person says regarding an airline even if it's Wolf Blitzer b/c i know that whatever airline's a/c is having pr
28 EK413 : It's clear QF have had a number of incidents recently; QF30 oxygen explosion QF74 engine failure shortly after departure QF6 engine failure after depa
29 Post contains links and images WestWing : For a laugh, read this dramatic story on the 737-400 incident w/ photo of a slightly overweight 737
30 monteycarlos : If you look back to last year when DJ had their epic check-in system failure, for a period after that they made the media several times for several un
31 777ER : I fully agree. QF have had far too many serious incidents over the last few years for an airline its size like engine failures, explosions, loosing f
32 gemuser : Support your assertion that they have had "too many" serious incidents with some real numbers & analysis from the ATSB web site. Gemuser
33 AirNZ : Yes, I see your point and, up to a point it is certainly valid enough. However, as I've said on other threads, where is this 'conspiracy' coming from
34 777ER : Give me another airline the same size as QF that has had as many incidents as QF over the last 2-3 years that involves issues as serious as QF30 oxyg
35 gemuser : OK, you made the assertion, you provide the evidence that the number of incidents at QF is abnormal. Gemuser
36 bj87 : It makes you think of the good old days where Douglas and Lockheed piston pounders would fly trans Atlantic and not uncommonly have to shut down an e
37 jetfuel : BA is a good start
38 Post contains links and images cpd : Air France at one point was having problem after problem too - it was the big thing on this site too. Then of course, AF447 crashed. AF A380s have had
39 n729pa : Some interesting comments on both sides I think, but I agree with GEMUSER 110% Facts and statistics will answer the question, but you have to have ALL
40 esdex : I will agree that the loss of control of the A333 was a worry. Not for Qantas alone though, equally for Airbus. Similarly the loss of AF447, the doub
41 777ER : I'm entitled to my own opinions and I believe that QF have had far too many incidents, but those examples I provided are some evidence. Thankfully th
42 gemuser : Then, under forum rules you have to make it clear it is just an opinion. The statement: "QF have had far too many serious incidents over the last few
43 Post contains links VirginFlyer : With reference to the analogy I made in reply 2, you're throwing in care accidents with flat tyres there and giving them equal weighting. A few obser
44 Auchmithie : loose = the opposite of tight. lose = the opposite of find. Sorry but this one drives me nuts.
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