Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
PVD And Domestic Service  
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

PVD does not have the best domestic network. Most of the cities served are in the northeast, and the farthest south is FLL and the farthest west is PHX. Is there any reason as to why there isn't service to bigger hubs such as MIA, DFW, DEN, LAX, SLC, etc? Also, why did AA pull out of PVD? I know PVD could support some new destinations as there are dozens upon dozens of companies in RI and southeastern MA that travel the country on a daily basis.

Any insight?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

#1. BOS just up the road with lots of low fare competition. Southwest even wanted a piece of that pie.

#2. After the economy tanked in 2008, the airlines have been keeping capacity in check. Very little domestic growth.

#3. A much needed longer runway may spark more interest in attracting longer haul flights.


User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Quoting John (Reply 1):
#1. BOS just up the road with lots of low fare competition. Southwest even wanted a piece of that pie.

It may be only 60+ miles, but in traffic, the commute can be horrendous. I remember driving from PVD to BOS and it took over 2 hours. Most of the people who fly out of PVD will NEVER fly out of BOS.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9298 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

people do the drive to Boston even from Connecticut.
and with the trains running right down there, even from Rhode Island ... if you can get a reasonable fare nonstop ... why not?



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineboslax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 2):
Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 2):
Most of the people who fly out of PVD will NEVER fly out of BOS.

Not sure I agree with that. Five years ago, many passenegers in the southwestern burbs of Boston, around 495, would consistently use PVD, myself included. Now that jetBlue has built up at Logan, and the Ted Williams tunnel is finished, BOS is the preferred airport for many of those passengers that PVD could count on. Basically, BOS has regained its service area. Can not see this changing anytime soon. jetBlue will contiue to grow at BOS and I would expect Southwest will also grow at BOS.


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Thread starter):
PVD does not have the best domestic network.

In comparison to similar airports in the northeast, its second only really to BDL, but still superior to BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB , only real difference is the first 3 have B6 to JFK.

Quoting John (Reply 1):
#1. BOS just up the road with lots of low fare competition. Southwest even wanted a piece of that pie.
Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 2):
Most of the people who fly out of PVD will NEVER fly out of BOS.
Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
if you can get a reasonable fare nonstop

One very common misconception on this board is that PVD service area = BOS service area but the truth is PVD is its own independent, viable market, just as Baltimore it is own, viable (albeit larger) market. However as indicated above, nonstop flights, will change the service area some, this is especially true for transcons. You can bet that there isa significant amount of leakage from PVD to markets like BOS-LAX, while markets where both have service, PVD has a proportionate size share of the combined market.

Quoting boslax (Reply 4):
Basically, BOS has regained its service area.

This statement is pretty accurate, PVD grew and stole some of BOS's service area, BOS regained it back with B6, PVD will probably gain a little back with AA and B6 and an LAX flight come to town and it will probably remain fairly balanced for the most part from then on unless BOS begins to experience congestion either on the gates or airfield.

Quoting boslax (Reply 4):
jetBlue will contiue to grow at BOS

I expect Jetblue to grow at PVD as well in the 1-2 year timeframe

Quoting boslax (Reply 4):
Southwest will also grow at BOS

I think they will grow where the opportunities exist but there will be no large scale ramp up, the flights they added at BOS (STL, DEN and PHL) were low-hanging fruit that if not snatched up, would have been by someone else.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1966 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting boslax (Reply 4):
Not sure I agree with that. Five years ago, many passenegers in the southwestern burbs of Boston, around 495, would consistently use PVD, myself included. Now that jetBlue has built up at Logan, and the Ted Williams tunnel is finished, BOS is the preferred airport for many of those passengers that PVD could count on. Basically, BOS has regained its service area. Can not see this changing anytime soon. jetBlue will contiue to grow at BOS and I would expect Southwest will also grow at BOS.

This is a very perceptive response. I live 35 miles south of BOS and about 35-40 miles from PVD. We used PVD frequently while the Big Dig construction project made it a real chore to get to BOS Logan. But for the past several years, we have used BOS almost exclusively... better frequencies, airline lounges/clubs, and better chances of avoiding RJs.

PVD is doing some runway modifications. I don't know if that will lead to more long haul service (DL to SLC?).


User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8893 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 6):

PVD is doing some runway modifications. I don't know if that will lead to more long haul service (DL to SLC?).

Best bet would be extra frequencies to MSP out of PVD - MSP and SLC serve many of the same markets pretty easily, save some tertiary Western cities that would require a double connect on any airline out of PVD. The MSP hub is why you haven't seen a ton of increase in service from SLC to the East Coast post-merger (and some contraction even, in markets such as CLE/PIT-SLC going away, and even markets like BOS-SLC going from 2x 757 to 2x 737; a lot of that traffic can just as easily flow over MSP).


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3579 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 5):
I expect Jetblue to grow at PVD as well in the 1-2 year timeframe

Do you (or anyone else for that matter) see this as a response to WN's progression in BOS?



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3034 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 6):
DL to SLC

BDL, CLT, RDU could not keep DL to SLC, so I would be shocked if DL tried PVD-SLC and it worked.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

RSW, LAX, BNA (seasonally), and PBI are the only 150+pax/day markets not served nonstop from PVD. WN could easily jump on all but LAX.


2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9298 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Rhode Island, in general, may need to see some economic recovery before we see a slew of new services or leisure nonstop services being added. The state's among the worst in the nation for unemployment.


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 11):
Rhode Island, in general, may need to see some economic recovery before we see a slew of new services or leisure nonstop services being added.

I think the airport and local economy has started to "turn the corner" the monthly declines have gotten smaller and smaller over the past year with recent totals near breaking even. A new route like PVD-RDU by Delta is a strong vote of confidence in the market. Even with recovery I dont think we will see a "slew" of anything.

Here is what I think we are looking at (roughly) air service wise over the next 5 or so years

2011/12

AA return
B6 to Florida - 2-4 flights like SWF/BDL to MCO/FLL and maybe seasonal RSW
DL might lose DCA for NYC if the slot swap goes through
UA/CO might lose some seats temporarily while 70 seaters are moved to the CO network before full optimization can begin.
WN - long awaited DEN, and ATL with the FL merger, ATL may kill BNA service however, though ATL may result in more Delta seats.

2013

UA/CO restoring previously cut seats as network efficiencies free up aircraft. Expect one midrange hub, probably IAH since WN will likely have DEN.
May see the start of cuts to CLE service

2014

DAL on WN?
At some point by this time Id hope YYZ is something more than 2x B1900
I expect CLE service will be non existent by this time, capacity made up by better schedules to ORD and IAH service.

2015

LAX



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9298 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 12):

pipe dreams.

Rhode Island's economy still needs a bigger turn around.

Delta's PVD - RDU is catering to increased Purdue Pharmaceuticals traffic.

Delta's PVD - DCA is catering to increased General Dynamics/government traffic.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 13):
pipe dreams.

Actually most of the things I listed are actually services that have been provided in the past (DFW, IAH, RSW)

Everything listed there would probably just restore service to previous levels

DCA I feel is a slot holder, I'd love to say I think it would stay post slot swap but I dont think so.

But mark my words, both AA and B6 will be at PVD within 3 years (barring any aviation or economic calamity)

UA/CO I think we will see a dip then a rebound just as we did with DL/NW



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Why did S4 stop service to PVD?

User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 15):
Why did S4 stop service to PVD?

They consolidated operations at BOS at the time of the fuel spike and economic recession.

The market is more closely associated with PVD (at least as far as PDL is concerned). Last time they left they had a charter airline come in which spurred S4 to return, maybe that will happen again. I think we will need to see the economy return more for that leisure segment to return. I have heard that Sata has been struggling a little bit as of late too.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 16):
I have heard that Sata has been struggling a little bit as of late too.

When I flew them in July from BOS-PDL, it didn't look like they were struggling. Both flights were 100% full and my fare (booked 6 months in advance) was over $350 each way!

Why did we see Spirit leave?


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 17):
Why did we see Spirit leave?

That one who knows why, I think at the time they thought they could do better in BOS.

They had FLL and RSW over 600 daily passengers with an average fare of over $150-200 e/w

Spirit hasnt stayed in a market they added since 2004 ish and add, remove service on a whim, and we'll see how this new small market/ allegiant like strategy works out for them.

It certainly was not for lack of demand, WN has filled in the FLL void, but RSW is still a big hole with lots of demand.

Ideally I'd like to see B6 do it and it would probably look something like this:

Q1 A320 and E190 (2x)
Q2 A320 (1x)
Q3 E190 (1x)
Q4 E90/A320 (1x)



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

One thing that may help PVD in the long run is the fact that the new train station serving the airport just opened recently. The problem now is the train schedules are awful for people who are actually trying to fly out, and they seem more geared toward people commuting to work in downtown. Maybe this will change when the Wickford Junction extension is completed.

But PVD has a beautiful terminal that has been modernized already to accommodate TSA needs. If more service is added though, gate space could become an issue in the future.


User currently offlinecloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

You also have to look at the cultural picture. Relatively speaking, Providence tends to be more of a leisure travel market than Boston does. A large chunk of the business travelers are located closer to BOS than PVD. And now that it is a straight shot into the airport on the pike, they are finding it easier to get to BOS. The airlines, in trying to optimize their routes, are focusing more on BOS traffic. I don't think PVD has particularly shrunk, it just has become less "visible".

But I think we will see some changes. Delta is starting to have mainline service now that they have combined routes with Northwest, and I am finding I am flying out of PVD more often. I expect the CO/UA merger will also do the same for them - people really do prefer the mainline jets. I have not heard about B6 flying out of PVD, bu that would very likely create a lot more traffic for them. The other big change is that PVD is now connected directly by train to Boston. Not frequent enough now for any real use, but could become a big factor in the future. In fact, from South Station you can't get to Logan with a one seat ride without taking a bus, but you CAN to PVD!



"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 19):
If more service is added though, gate space could become an issue in the future.

As of now, gate space isn't a problem. I've counted 4 vacant gates (1 AA, 2 DL, and 1 WN). The problem would be with the check in counters since there is only 1 vacant counter. If AA and B6 both wanted to come to PVD, they'd have to share or build another one.


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1524 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 21):
I've counted 4 vacant gates (1 AA, 2 DL, and 1 WN).

Actually the vacant gates are now:

2 (US)
10 ( UA)
12 (AA)
14 (AA)
20 (DH) - Ground level only
22 (DL)

I would think AA and B6 would take up 12 and 14, the only missing airlines would be Frontier and Virgin America with Air Tran gone, Frontier if they ever came would probably share with someone, Virgin America is probably not in the 5-10 year timeframe anyways.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 22):
Actually the vacant gates are now:

2 (US)
10 ( UA)
12 (AA)
14 (AA)
20 (DH) - Ground level only
22 (DL)

I would think AA and B6 would take up 12 and 14, the only missing airlines would be Frontier and Virgin America with Air Tran gone, Frontier if they ever came would probably share with someone, Virgin America is probably not in the 5-10 year timeframe anyways.

I never fly US out of PVD so I have never been the other side of the terminal. But gate space is not the problem! If Frontier ever came, it would definitely be to Denver, which I can see PVD supporting a daily flight. I want to see AA to DFW and MIA.


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 23):
it would definitely be to Denver,

Actually I doubt that, they are too afraid of WN doing it (which will probably ultimately be the case)

If they ever did come, it would be to MKE or some other hub (I am of the oppinion they will try and find another hub in a place like PIT or a de-hubbed CVG eventually, all with something like 2x RJ. I dont see them at PVD in the next couple years unless they have a pretty extensive revamp of their network.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
25 keagkid101 : I would also like to see some international service. There was talk a couple of years ago about Ryan Air flying to big cities via secondary airports,
26 RobertS975 : Frontier has appeared on one analyst's list of 10 companies that will disappear in 2011.
27 Post contains images ERJ170 : I could see that.. only because I could see Republic buying US Airways and folding Frontier into it..
28 rl757pvd : Thats been pretty quiet as of late. the main opporonities for international service consist of improved YYZ (Upgrade to DH8s, 3rd frequency) or thing
29 keagkid101 : What about those LCCs in the UK such as Martin Air and Thompson Airways?
30 stlgph : but again, there's no need for Providence to be a reliever for Boston as much anymore. more airlines are offering more service and the fares aren't to
31 rl757pvd : They cater to leisure and travel destinations Exactly...the sharp growth came from the Boston service area, and the recession effects were compounded
32 n92r03 : PVD has come a long way. 25 years ago it was awful, by that I mean basically a one restroom/one building facility. Used to always have to fly to BOS.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Qantas And US Domestic Service posted Tue Jan 1 2008 22:59:33 by PDXBJV
Air China 777 Domestic And International Service posted Mon Aug 18 2003 18:28:19 by Pakistania
AA And UA Service At PVD posted Sat May 13 2000 20:17:19 by John
BWI And International Service posted Sat Jan 1 2011 14:45:31 by keagkid101
Kenya's FLY540 To Begin Angola Domestic Service posted Tue Dec 7 2010 09:59:23 by boeingrulz
KL And MIA Service, Update? posted Thu Oct 21 2010 22:42:11 by miaintl
Daytona Beach And Mainline Service posted Mon Aug 16 2010 08:26:16 by my1le
The Future Of MX And Legacy Service In Mexico posted Thu Aug 5 2010 10:15:31 by AM001
ECP Opens Today With WN And DL Service posted Sun May 23 2010 11:51:30 by JBAirwaysFan
New Zurich To Calgary And Vancouver Service posted Wed Oct 28 2009 17:26:26 by Bakersdozen