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Some Questions About Omni Air And The 777  
User currently offlinectflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 89 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11726 times:

I did see a report on another site that Omni is getting two former United 777 aircraft. When will these be placed into service? What will be the seating capacity and how will they be configured - 9 or 10 abreast?

Based on the lease payments for the 777, how is it economically feasible to operate this aircraft in the military charter type of environment than Omni serves?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11702 times:
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One is undergoing preparation now at MZJ with the other to follow shortly. Ryan International wanted these a/c but Omni came in and made a higher offer. It will be economically feasible for Omni as no doubt the lease terms were very favorable. With these two a/c now placed (coming from Air india) only 2 777's out of 915 built to date are stored---both early non-ER models......2 777's have been scrapped and one written off at Heathrow----an amazing record---both from a demand for the product but safety as well---not one life lost on a 777.

User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11426 times:

So instead of stops in Europe they will go directly from a military base to the Middle East?

User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3692 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11386 times:
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Quoting 413X3 (Reply 2):
So instead of stops in Europe they will go directly from a military base to the Middle East?

They will still stop in Europe. Military payloads are much more heavy than civilian payloads



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlinerobo65 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11156 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
They will still stop in Europe. Military payloads are much more heavy than civilian payloads

Not necessarily, most of their equipment is pre shipped over to the middle east via ship or military transport. I know when CO was doing military charters, there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11138 times:

Quoting robo65 (Reply 4):
Not necessarily, most of their equipment is pre shipped over to the middle east via ship or military transport. I know when CO was doing military charters, there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.

But I believe that most of their personal combat gear goes with them, as well as their weapons.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3692 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11117 times:
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Quoting robo65 (Reply 4):
Not necessarily, most of their equipment is pre shipped over to the middle east via ship or military transport. I know when CO was doing military charters, there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.



Well as a loadmaster who does lots of military charters I can tell you that most of them cannot go non-stop. Yes they do ship lots of stuff ahead of them, but they still bring a ton of shit with them on the movement. Average pax weight on a commercial trip is 190 lbs, average troop weight usually comes out to 215lbs. On average pax will check 1.5 bags, and at 30 lbs per bag, on a flight with 355 people that comes to 15,960 lbs. A flight with 355 troops will easily have 35,000 to 40,000 lbs of bags, weapons and cargo. AMC flights are a lot more heavy.

Pax payload w/355 pax 83,410 lbs
AMC payload w/355 pax 116,325 lbs

AMC has almost 33,000 lbs more payload. That will limit your range very quickly.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10992 times:

Quoting robo65 (Reply 4):
there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.

Isn't that the supposed rendition 777 spotted in various airports with a very lightly painted n-registration?


User currently offlinenetjets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10966 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 7):
Quoting robo65 (Reply 4):
there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.

Isn't that the supposed rendition 777 spotted in various airports with a very lightly painted n-registration?

Know of any pictures of that?


User currently offlineUATulipfan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10953 times:

I hope this doesn't mean the end for the DC-10s.


Long live the Tulip! The logo of the REAL United Airlines.
User currently offlineB-787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10817 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 7):

I believe you are referring to the Vision Air 767 that used to go in and out of IAD.



722,732,73G,738,739,739ER,752,753,762,763,764,744,788,D10,M80,300,320
User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1248 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10622 times:

Word around the campfire is that these ex UAL/AIC birds have problems with the MX Records. The records during their UAL life were tip top, the time the aircraft was involved with Air India - not so much. So spotty that the FAA will not accept the C check that was performed on them at the end of their Air India lease.

Both aircraft, at least according to MX people that I work with, will need to have an fresh C check before they can be put online; and before the FAA will allow them to be placed on the Omni certificate

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 2):

So instead of stops in Europe they will go directly from a military base to the Middle East?

Actually, up to a payload of about 80000 lbs, that will be entirely possible - at least from a mil base in the eastern half of the US, with a long (excess of 10-11000 feet) runway, and with the right overflight permissions in place. I dont know if Omni has a polar ops program to go north of 78 degs N latitude - but with these 777s, they'll want one.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
They will still stop in Europe. Military payloads are much more heavy than civilian payloads
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
AMC has almost 33,000 lbs more payload. That will limit your range very quickly.

Wow I didn't realize they carried so much stuff around. I thought they shipped all their stuff ahead of time and the just moved the troops around with their personal belongings.

Quoting UATulipfan (Reply 9):
I hope this doesn't mean the end for the DC-10s.

Their days are numbered. With the ever increasing fuel prices it will become more economically viable to own a plane that burns less fuel but costs a bit more to lease.

On a side note: does omni air get tax free fuel as it is a military charter?


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

Quoting UATulipfan (Reply 9):
I hope this doesn't mean the end for the DC-10s.

It does. The 777s are going to replace the DC-10s.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineKBGRbillT From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9098 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
It does. The 777s are going to replace the DC-10s.

Omni has 10 DC-10-30's so 2 777's won't be completely replacing that fleet for some time I would guess the 10's will still be flying for quite a while.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9005 times:

Quoting KBGRbillT (Reply 14):
Omni has 10 DC-10-30's so 2 777's won't be completely replacing that fleet for some time I would guess the 10's will still be flying for quite a while.

I don't expect that those 2 777s will be all they get in the near future. My son-in-law is in class right now for the DC-10, but anticipating a move to the 777s in the near future.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineUATulipfan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

Omni has the newest DC-10s in the world, and many are ER models. Hopefully, whenver the day they do get retired comes, these particular birds don't get sent straight to the scrapper.


Long live the Tulip! The logo of the REAL United Airlines.
User currently offlineb52murph From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7991 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
Quoting robo65 (Reply 4):
Not necessarily, most of their equipment is pre shipped over to the middle east via ship or military transport. I know when CO was doing military charters, there was a 777 that flew NS from EWR-KWI.

Well as a loadmaster who does lots of military charters I can tell you that most of them cannot go non-stop. Yes they do ship lots of stuff ahead of them, but they still bring a ton of shit with them on the movement. Average pax weight on a commercial trip is 190 lbs, average troop weight usually comes out to 215lbs. On average pax will check 1.5 bags, and at 30 lbs per bag, on a flight with 355 people that comes to 15,960 lbs. A flight with 355 troops will easily have 35,000 to 40,000 lbs of bags, weapons and cargo. AMC flights are a lot more heavy.

Pax payload w/355 pax 83,410 lbs
AMC payload w/355 pax 116,325 lbs

AMC has almost 33,000 lbs more payload. That will limit your range very quickly.

I've been there as a PAX--albeit 5.5 years ago on good 'ol N194AT (at the time, the last L1011-100 in TZ's fleet) routed from BWI-FRA in the waning days of FRA as a military presence. The rotation and climbout from BWI was so sluggish, I got a little worried. And...we had to make an unplanned fuel stop in Shannon due to weight & range (flight was ordinarily a -500 TriStar). Was very thankful we didn't put down in the drink...


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6621 times:

Probably a very heavy and de-rated takeoff. The L-1011 is the Cadillac of the skies.

User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6327 times:
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Unfortunately there is a D10 on the Omni ramp in Tulsa currently being stripped. They normally remove any good spares to help keep the remainder of the fleet flying. Then break it up and sell the scrap. I'll try and get a reg next time I'm out that way. They also have a couple of 763's that are fairly recent acquisitions.

Quoting b52murph (Reply 17):
Omni has the newest DC-10s in the world, and many are ER models. Hopefully, whenver the day they do get retired comes, these particular birds don't get sent straight to the scrapper.

I don't know about that, they bought quite a few of the former NW D10's, several have already been scrapped. They do have several from 1988/89 that should be around for a few more years or until more 763 or 772 are available that would be more profitable for their operation.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1802 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 19):
They also have a couple of 763's that are fairly recent acquisitions.

I flew on one of em back home from the sandbox earlier this month...ex AZ bird. Quite cramped on the jet with maybe 28-29 inch seat pitch and no gasper air vents. But most of us really didn't care since we were going home...


User currently offlineUATulipfan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5792 times:

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 19):

The NW DC-10s they bought were some of the newest off the line and ER models. They also have the last DC-10 ever built.



Long live the Tulip! The logo of the REAL United Airlines.
User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5696 times:
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Quoting UATulipfan (Reply 21):
The NW DC-10s they bought were some of the newest off the line and ER models. They also have the last DC-10 ever built.

Unfortunately they are still over 20 years old. While they are certainly capable of flying for many more years, economically, they are probably close to the end. As more 763 and 77E aircraft become available the end for the D10's comes closer. Omni obviously knows the '10's quite well and has earned a good living flying them, at some point it is better for them financially to switch to the newer twins. Omni has good leadership and will make the decision that is in their best interest. Personally I hope the '10s fly for a long time, they are a great ride, and watching them on final approach, loud, slow and dirty, is a beautiful sight.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 22):
Unfortunately they are still over 20 years old. While they are certainly capable of flying for many more years, economically, they are probably close to the end. As more 763 and 77E aircraft become available the end for the D10's comes closer. Omni obviously knows the '10's quite well and has earned a good living flying them, at some point it is better for them financially to switch to the newer twins. Omni has good leadership and will make the decision that is in their best interest. Personally I hope the '10s fly for a long time, they are a great ride, and watching them on final approach, loud, slow and dirty, is a beautiful sight.

Well, as I said before, the DC-10s will be gone.......the 2 777s (I heard it was three) are just the tip of the iceberg.


A little bird told me.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5637 times:

Also a cost savings in personnel as the 777's are 2 person in the cockpit and the 10's of course are three.


You can cut the irony with a knife
25 GARUDAROD : Who has to foot the bill for the "C" checks to be redone? Omni? Air India? or the Lessor?
26 luv2fly : Depends on how the contract was writen, good chance is Air India does and returns the plane as they got them, though can not say for sure.
27 KBGRbillT : More seating capacity probably means more flight attendants so not a real big savings in personnel will be realized.
28 B777LRF : Don't think that'll be the case. When OMNI will be flying the 777s long-haul, they'll need a 3rd pilot more often than not. Same number of butts on s
29 luv2fly : FA's cost are no where near what they pay pilots.
30 777fan : More importantly, the 777's lower overall operating costs (fuel efficiency, parts, maintenance, etc.) will fund the extra FAs. 777fan
31 413X3 : Lower operating costs as long as you don't include the much much higher lease rate.
32 mayor : Well, that third person on the DC-10 is the F/E. Are they also pilot qualified or are the DC-10s carrying an extra pilot on top of the Captain, F/O a
33 cbphoto : No, they are most likely carrying an extra pilot, on top of the Capt, FO/FE! Generally speaking, the FE is just in the FEs spot, while they are a pil
34 777fan : Which begs the question: would they enter into a lease that's a drain on their bottom line in the first place? Of course not. 777fan
35 B777LRF : Think you will find they're most likely not carrying an extra pilot. With a 3-man crew (CPT, FO, FE) there's no need to. Furthermore FEs might very w
36 dispatchguy : Well, anything over 8 hours flight time, and they need an additional pilot, and if they go over 12 hours flight, they need a double augmented crew Plu
37 wjcandee : The economics are not simple. The 777 costs less to operate, presumably, than a DC10, including maintenance. However, the operational savings are *var
38 xdlx : Ryan Air was @ CYYR last week TUE on a B767 (ex DL non-ER) with a Fuel to load situation due to how heavy they where heading Eastbound. It was -25C a
39 Post contains images cbphoto : Exactly, just because you have three crew members up front, does not make you exempt from the leg/hour requirements for additional crew members! It a
40 B777LRF : Well, over this side of the pond that's not the case. An FE "counts" as the 3rd crewmember, and duty times up to 14 hours are allowed. Take an extra
41 KBGRbillT : And flight engineers cost (what we were talking about being eliminated with the departure of the DC-10's) are no where near that of pilots!
42 777fan : From (albeit limited) experience, this is actually often the case as AMC feeds "pax" into departure points on both ends as quickly and efficiently as
43 wjcandee : Depends on the mission. Follow a few of the Camber flights around and you'll see that this ain't necessarily so. Also, it may depart quickly, but that
44 777fan : Naturally, my observations are far from absolutes or certainties and DoD is ultimately at the mercy of the carrier (they provide a service AMC can't
45 xdlx : How much is under the water?
46 Post contains images mayor : The little bird didn't specify.
47 xdlx : I got an offer to go there for the last 75/76 class.... More 777 would make it worth my while!
48 c5load : I'm sorry maybe I missed it but are these 777s ER or no?
49 mayor : My son-in-law is there, right now, in the DC-10 class........I'm guessing the DC-10 crews will get first crack at the 777s.
50 n471wn : Yes they are
51 airtran737 : Omni has a union, but no contract. Bid awards and captain upgrades are done on a "depends if we like you" basis. So most likely the first 777 crews w
52 Post contains images mayor : There again, I'm just passing on what the "little bird" told me. According to them, the DC-10 crews would be the first to be moved to the 777s.
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