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Emirates & Etihad Get More Flights To France  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11564 times:

Source:

http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...ihad-get-france-clearance-1.753756

Quote:
Emirates and Etihad Airways won clearance to add 22 weekly flights to France in bilateral government talks.

Emirates and Etihad will each receive permission for an additional four weekly Paris flights and seven to smaller cities, said a French Transport Ministry spokeswoman who declined to be identified, citing government rules.

IIRC so far EK served CDG and NCE, while EY served only CDG.

This is a good day for French travellers. Any idea which additional destination EK or EY could launch?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11550 times:

As per Le Figaro (french newspaper) there will be an increase of flights to CDG starting on April, 1st.
Additional french destinations may be LYS, TLS & MRS



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11493 times:

Was there not an earlier announcement that France had offered access to LYS? I have a vague recollection of discussions along those lines about six months ago. I seem to recall that the offer was less than requested and discussions were continuing.

User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4849 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11265 times:

Seems like everybody wants a piece of Paris this year :P

QR increase from 14 to 16 wk A 346
AI increase from 3 to 7 wk B 772LRs
EY increase from 10 to 14 wk A 333s.

And now soon EK from 14 to 18 wk using A 380s and B 777s.

Massive threat indeed to AF's market share eastbound from CDG!


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11148 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
Massive threat indeed to AF's market share eastbound from CDG!

Market share may be under threat, but how about the total nimber of seats? Can AF increase the total number of seats sold even if they lose market share? This will certainly depend on whether the total number of passengers grows.


User currently offlinevarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10970 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
Massive threat indeed to AF's market share eastbound from CDG!

It's not only for AF, as from CDG :
- EK and EY are taking a lot of Y pax to BKK from TG
- PK reduced drastically its flight to CDG (now combined with MXP and FRA) while ex-PK pax prefers QR
- QR EK EY starts to bite hard in SQ ex-captive markets out of CDG such as SYD CGK MNL

Good thing of gulf airlines development in France is linking cities like LYS NCE and MRS to the middle and far east without having to fly north up to CDG.
Expansion started in NCE with EK and QR which is good, but let's see for other airports like LYS and MRS...TLS is a much smaller city though Airbus generates good international traffic



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10907 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
Massive threat indeed to AF's market share eastbound from CDG!

So what......how AF, or anyone else, responds is entirely their responsibility and how they choose to compete? As a passenger I prefer choice to do what I want to do and I give absolutely no consideration whatever to the 'plight' of AF or any other carrier. Why should I? However, it's refreshing to see they at least welcome the competition as opposed to Canada.


User currently offlinedlphoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9208 times:

I wonder whether AF will try to protect the its turf or end being Air Paris the same way BA turned into London Airways.

DLP


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8548 times:

Well, it looks like France finally sold the Rafel to an international customer......and threw AF under the bus doing it.

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Well, it looks like France finally sold the Rafel to an international customer......and threw AF under the bus doing it.

Thrown under the bus? AF has many great non-stops ex CDG. They can live with a little competition.


User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8406 times:

Until recently, France was reportedly resisting demands by the UAE to take back about 60 Mirage 2000-9s in exchange for a Rafale sale. But now French newspaper La Tribune has reported the UAE has insisted on a second condition.

In return for buying the Rafale, France must give the UAE's two airlines -- Abu Dhabi's Etihad and Dubai's Emirates -- more landing slots at major French airports, especially Charles de Gaulle near Paris. According to La Tribune, this forces the French government to choose between "two of its industrial jewels": Rafale manufacturer Dassault and Air France.


http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...report-rafale-sale-sparks-war.html


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 5):
Expansion started in NCE with EK and QR which is good, but let's see for other airports like LYS and MRS...TLS is a much smaller city though Airbus generates good international traffic

LYS and NCE are the most obvious provincial targets, agreed.

MLH/BSL could also be another good one.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6926 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8093 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Well, it looks like France finally sold the Rafel to an international customer......and threw AF under the bus doing it.

It's Rafale (squall) and I agree that Dassault is probably happier than AF right now, but I welcome the competition, especially the A340s and A380s !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineruscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

It would be interesting to know who applieed for more rights and did not get them!

Ruscoe


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7495 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
Until recently, France was reportedly resisting demands by the UAE to take back about 60 Mirage 2000-9s in exchange for a Rafale sale. But now French newspaper La Tribune has reported the UAE has insisted on a second condition.

In return for buying the Rafale, France must give the UAE's two airlines -- Abu Dhabi's Etihad and Dubai's Emirates -- more landing slots at major French airports, especially Charles de Gaulle near Paris. According to La Tribune, this forces the French government to choose between "two of its industrial jewels": Rafale manufacturer Dassault and Air France.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th....html

Would that EK/EY's competitor's had that kind of government backing...

I can't think of a single other airline that has a government that threatens diplomatic and industrial action/blackmail over landing rights. I wonder how long they can keep this up.


User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

I heard the announcement on French radio and the commentator did not shy away about the potential civilian (Airbus) and military (Dassault) orders this new agreement could bring to France. Normal horse trading of International business. Let's see how AF reacts, they are certainly not happy, even according to the RFI journalist.

User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7322 times:

Guess we'll finally see what's more important to the governments of Europe: airplane sales or airline ticket sales.

It's one thing to suggest that EK/EY/QR deserve more access because they are serving secondary cities like Nice or Toulouse. It's another matter altogether when they are ramping up competition at hubs.

This'll do some damage to AF for sure.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7095 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 20):
This'll do some damage to AF for sure.

There are things AF and friends can do to fight back. For example... QF, through jetstar, is rapidly developing SIN into a oneworld hub, with BA, CX and JAL all having major operations into there. These can feed jetstar regional flights and of course connect onto Australia and new zealand. AF and friends need to start consider the possibility of starting non-stop flights from regional areas to these other hubs to enable one-stop long haul service to a lot of places.

or...
Beef up their hubs even further and increase service levels. They need to copy Emirates and start service to as many destions as possible using as larger aircraft as possible. They need the lowest CASM they can get... so in order to do this their governments need to start HELPING them by reducing aviation taxes at european hubs and possibly helping with more flexible labor conditions. If AF for example, put more 77W's KL's way he and even say the A388 (or ultimately thely 399) they should be able to significantly reduce their CASM. But they also need to be able to higher younger staff on cheaper more flexible conditions too. (as much as I hate to say that nobody wants to hear that). On top of this, economy and business classes need improving. They need the WOW factor back. The reason EK can afford more on things like catering is it has its other costs much further down. This is where euro governments can help. They can cut landing fees and parking charges for a start, and reduce tax on all kinds of aviation operations... right across the board. If they want this industry to survive... better to have lower tax and still collect tax on it than have all the revenue..and thus no tax... going through the middle east? What it will mean though is europe can probably only support a few big hubs. They can still complete if they can offer what EK does. One stop to everywhere! But they have to do it on a larger and more glamorous style (pay ATTN SAS and friends!)


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6995 times:

@Lufthansa

You've painted a tall order for these guys. But I do agree that the airlines in Europe have to wake up. And they have to accept a new paradigm.....namely that the best way to compete is to get your own hub (for your alliance) in Asia and run your flights there.

I do think all the Indian operators teaming up will help the Europeans a bit. Jet in SkyTeam could really help out AF and KL by feeding their networks from India and basically following EK's lead by targeting secondary cities in Europe. Far better to let 9W take pax from NCE to BOM than for EK to do it. It'll still be a while though till the Indians are fully in the swing of things.

But it's going to be a while till the Indians get their act together. Till then, the Europeans have their work cut out for them.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1295 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6537 times:

Some seem to think that this is the end of European airlines. It isnt.
Just as when the SE Asian airlines showed up and started taking marketshare, ordering new aircrafts by the dozens. What we saw from European and Australian carriers was some adaptation. QF an airline that really has seen its own market invaded has adopted to the Asian airlines and so will all European airlines.
Fortresshubs, where alot of the businesstraffic stems from are rather immune to this, customers have what they need already. I don't think AF is crying to loud about these extra landing rights to UAE carriers. They have to put up some show and say buhu but small increases like this they can live with. What they want is a huge increase and complaining and playing the victim for a small increase like this suits them just fine.

The extra few slots given to UAE carriers are a symbolic token, not much more.
lets both sides conclude their negotiations and return home without having lost faith.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2359 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 23):
The extra few slots given to UAE carriers are a symbolic token,

Read reply 3. That hardly seems like a 'symbolic token'.


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6119 times:

Last I checked BA is still in business with the plethora of EK flights into pretty much all major airports in the UK. Why should it be doomsday for AF with a few more frequencies into France? You guys are blowing this way out of proportion.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 26):
Last I checked BA is still in business with the plethora of EK flights into pretty much all major airports in the UK. Why should it be doomsday for AF with a few more frequencies into France? You guys are blowing this way out of proportion.

Indeed. BA still flies to India, Australia, and South Africa. A little competition isn't that bad, BA ordered new planes (A380, 787, 77W) and has a great new terminal at LHR.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13529 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4736 times:
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I'm going to second the notion to keep the Canadian discussion to another thread.

This opening of *any* more CDG rights surprises me. It should be no surprise that AF tried to keep that from happening.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
They need the lowest CASM they can get... so in order to do this their governments need to start HELPING them by reducing aviation taxes at european hubs and possibly helping with more flexible labor conditions.

You did a good start at what AF needs to accomplish.

AF/KLM also both need to fill out much of their eastward connections (look at Asia and Mid-East). In particular, in India with only 3 cities. That might be ok if there were a Skyteam partner in India or the mid-east, but I'm not aware of even a rumor about skyteam and the mideast/India.
http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common...eau/reseau_airfrance_airfrance.htm

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4849 posts, RR: 44
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
That might be ok if there were a Skyteam partner in India or the mid-east, but I'm not aware of even a rumor about skyteam and the mideast/India.

Jet Airways  


25 r2rho : I could see a benefit to French customers if the additional slots were granted to opening up secondary cities (from an AF point of view) in France, b
26 Post contains images mariner : LOL. If you don't ask in life, you don't get. It seems a very small price for France to pay for a good order of an aircraft that has had a pretty dis
27 Thorben : No, it's not the same. The UAE mainly exports oil and gas and mainly imports airplanes, cars, jewelry and some machines. They are not going to have a
28 r2rho : CDG : EK 18 wk + EY 14 wk = 32 wk (and 48 wk if you count QR) NCE: 7 wk EK likely: LYS: 7 wk EK or EY MRS: 7 wk EK or EY How is this not Paris-centri
29 Thorben : France is generally very Paris-centric. It has a 1/6 of the entire population and is five times bigger than the next biggest metropolitan area. It al
30 RyanairGuru : Amen. Given that EK fly to 6 cities in the UK (1 4x daily, 1 3x daily and 2 twice daily) I think it's fair to say that of the major world airlines BA
31 Kaiarahi : NZ is down to 5x weekly with a 772. I don't know how much of that is due to EK running 380s into AKL/CHC
32 LondonCity : But NZ's main routing between LHR and AKL is via LAX. The service via HKG is a fairly recent addition. I understand that the service frequency via HK
33 Kaiarahi : I know. The post I was responding to referred to the Kangaroo Route. 2006, IIRC.
34 Pe@rson : Actually (and based on the week commencing 7th Feb): LHR - 5x daily (2x 380; 2x 773; 1x 77W) LGW - 3x daily (2x 77W, 1x 772) BHX - 2x daily (2x 77W)
35 cloudyapple : I see potential for a Stansted daily to cover the N and E London catchment but the place is full of peasants boarding LCCs so Emirates may not consid
36 ytz : Kaiarahi's analogy was Canada-US. And it is the same. Canada being the major source of resources for the US does have a lot of leverage. However, as
37 AirGabon : And why no EK or EY flights to ORY to totally spread into the Parisian market and to catch the AF domestic passengers? As in London with LHR and LGW b
38 Post contains links Thorben : The funny thing is, Daimler wants to sell its 15% stake in EADS. The German government might buy it. That could give EK some major leverage, concerni
39 SR4ever : ORY could indeed be a good target. CDG is so far away when you live in places such as Dourdan, Melun, Orléans...
40 Post contains images Aesma : ORY would be great indeed, for me at least
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