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Can CSeries Emerge From Neo's Shadow?  
User currently offlinefergyvr From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 3 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7890 times:

Interesting article from Flightglobal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...eries-emerge-from-neos-shadow.html

Can Bombardier's CSeries clean sheet design really competes with Airbus's re-engined offering?


Flying a plane is no different from riding a bicycle. It's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30908 posts, RR: 87
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7718 times:
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LH bought the CSeries for short-haul missions formerly flown by the 737 Classics. They have said the A320neo has a place in their fleet for their longer missions and when you look at things like North American transcon missions, a CS300ER is lilely not going to be competitive against a 737-800neo or A320-200neo, to say nothing of the 739ERneo/A321neo or an all-new Airbus or Boeing narrowbody.

[Edited 2011-01-29 13:58:25]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7689 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
when you look at things like North American transcon mission

This is the caveat he mentions where a CSeries would not fit but for 90% of most airlines single aisle missions a CSeries would more efficient, not bad.

[Edited 2011-01-29 14:03:18]

[Edited 2011-01-29 14:04:46]


Non French in France
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30908 posts, RR: 87
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7621 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 2):
This is the caveat he mentions where a CSeries would not fit but for 90% of most airlines single aisle missions a CSeries would more efficient, not bad.

If that was true, the CSeries should have sold a great deal better than it has compared to the A320 and 737.

LH, in fact, took their own sweet time finally consumating their CSeries order, and did so only for 30, while continuing to place orders for the A320 family.


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7403 times:

The CSeries competes against the A318, A319, 737-600, and the 737-700. Have there been any recent large orders for those?

User currently offlineDrewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7372 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
The CSeries competes against the A318, A319, 737-600, and the 737-700. Have there been any recent large orders for those?

No, because airlines today are up scaling in capacity. The CSeries caters to a market that isn't there and it's order book is proof of that.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30908 posts, RR: 87
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
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Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
The CSeries competes against the A318, A319, 737-600, and the 737-700. Have there been any recent large orders for those?

The CSeries was formally offered for sale in February 2008.

From then until last month, Boeing sold 154 737-700s.

I can't findthe historical Orders & Deliveries spreadsheet on Airbus' site and the Search function doesn't show it, so they may no longer offer that information. But I would not be surprised if the A318+A319 total was also in the triple digits for those two years.


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 5):
No, because airlines today are up scaling in capacity. The CSeries caters to a market that isn't there and it's order book is proof of that.

Yes but there is a huge regional aircraft base out there on many routes which don't make economic sense for up scaling to 150+ passenger aircraft, and the 737-600, 737-700, A318, and A319 aren't efficient for those routes.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
From then until last month, Boeing sold 154 737-700s.

How many of those were new customers and how many had a business plan which scheduled delivery 2014 and beyond?


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 7):
How many of those were new customers and how many had a business plan which scheduled delivery 2014 and beyond?

It does not change the fact that the seat range the CSeries is targeting has very small demand. One can argue all they want that there is no efficient design until the CSeries in that category, but the reality is that it is a very small market. Boeing would still be selling the 717 today if the market was big enough for it to offer the B717 and 737-600 side by side. But the reality is that they can not even sell B737-600/-700 in large enough numbers to show that the sub 150 seat sector is anything to really focus on. I feel confident that Bombardier will get CS300 orders from Delta, but it won't change the fact that the plane will play in a niche market. NEO's will make the market size for the CSeries even smaller as an A320NEO will now lower the cost margin against the CS300, but have a big revenue upside. That means more upscaling. That is why Airbus does not have to make an A319NEO right away, as the A320NEO will put pressure on the B738, but at the same time make the CS300 a more difficult business case from the airline perspective.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

The CSeries will still be way lighter than any A32Sneo, so for short/medium haul it should have better economics. I think customers are just waiting to see it fly, which is perfectly understandable for three main reasons : all new plane from a small manufacturer, all new revolutionary engine from a not so reputable engine manufacturer, and of course the 787 debacle.

Furthermore, till there is a big order, you can wait and see and when you order have them relatively quickly.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
If that was true, the CSeries should have sold a great deal better than it has compared to the A320 and 737.

LH, in fact, took their own sweet time finally consumating their CSeries order, and did so only for 30, while continuing to place orders for the A320 family.

I think working against the CSeries is perceived mission risk: clean sheet design basically in a whole different league than the manufacturer has competed in before + a new concept engine. BBD really do need to get it right, 1st time. They can't possibly afford a 787 scenario.

A, OTOH, even with the new tech engine, have a strong brand in the market and can develop orders based on their historical reputation.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 8):
It does not change the fact that the seat range the CSeries is targeting has very small demand. One can argue all they want that there is no efficient design until the CSeries in that category, but the reality is that it is a very small market. Boeing would still be selling the 717 today if the market was big enough for it to offer the B717 and 737-600 side by side. But the reality is that they can not even sell B737-600/-700 in large enough numbers to show that the sub 150 seat sector is anything to really focus on. I feel confident that Bombardier will get CS300 orders from Delta, but it won't change the fact that the plane will play in a niche market. NEO's will make the market size for the CSeries even smaller as an A320NEO will now lower the cost margin against the CS300, but have a big revenue upside. That means more upscaling. That is why Airbus does not have to make an A319NEO right away, as the A320NEO will put pressure on the B738, but at the same time make the CS300 a more difficult business case from the airline perspective.

Very good arguments indeed. I agree the DL order is tantalizing for BBD and I think they are prepared to really offer a sweet heart deal on this, as it could make the program overall. If DL sign for 100 or so CS300, I think the doors are wide open for the future.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30908 posts, RR: 87
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5786 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
The CSeries will still be way lighter than any A32Sneo, so for short/medium haul it should have better economics.

But that size can also play against it in terms of CASM/RASM, since it maxes out at 145 seats. But many 145-seat A319-100 and 737-700 operators are finding that the 185-seat A320-200 and 737-800 offers almost identical trip costs, but those extra 40 seats offer significant extra revenue potential.

So an A320-200neo / 737-800neo operator might very well get close to the trip and operating costs of a CS300, but be able to make more money thanks to having upwards of 30% more seats available for sale.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5711 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Furthermore, till there is a big order, you can wait and see and when you order have them relatively quickly.

But who wants to be the first big order when it has gone so many years without one? At this point, a customer must honestly ask themselves if they want to be stuck with a good but rare airplane and the associated support challenges that entails.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
The CSeries will still be way lighter than any A32Sneo, so for short/medium haul it should have better economics.

People are making the same argument about the 787 being less suitable for short/medium haul versus older but lighter jets like the 767-300 and A300. I'll ask the same question now as I have in those topics. Just how short and how often do you need to be flying to justify a slightly more optimal aircraft for your 130 seat routes as opposed to having a common 130-180 seat family?

I won't even get into the 110-seat CS100 since this market is d-e-a-d, dead, dead, dead.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 12):
I won't even get into the 110-seat CS100 since this market is d-e-a-d, dead, dead, dead.

Do you mean dead in US because of the pilot union agreements or dead worldwide?



Non French in France
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 13):
Do you mean dead in US because of the pilot union agreements or dead worldwide?

Completely my opinion of course: but dead worldwide. It's been ages since there was a strong seller in this segment.

- We know that the 737-600 and A318 don't offer a significant trip cost advantage to justify their reduced capacity versus the larger 737NGs and A32Xs.

- The 717-200 offered excellent economics for its day and failed to catch-on

- One of the excuses for the 717's failure was that it didn't benefit from a family of variants. The E195 is a member of a strong selling family but it has achieved roughly 100 sales in roughly 10 years. Not exactly blockbuster numbers.

Pilot union contracts in the U.S. probably don't help, but it isn't as if any of the airlines bound by them are in a hurry to fix the problem. If those airlines wanted/needed a 110 seat aircraft, I would have to think that resolving the contract issues would be a higher priority. I think that the the 110 seat market falls in a dead zone between the better per-seat costs of bigger narrowbodies for mainline routes and the lower risk of 90 seat jets for thin routes and hub-feeding.

There are other seat capacity points where I think the same can be said, such as the ~450 seat market where Boeing is trying to position the 747-8I between the 773ER and A380.


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 14):
The 717-200 offered excellent economics for its day and failed to catch-on

  

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 14):
The E195 is a member of a strong selling family but it has achieved roughly 100 sales in roughly 10 years.

  

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 14):
I think that the the 110 seat market falls in a dead zone between the better per-seat costs of bigger narrowbodies for mainline routes and the lower risk of 90 seat jets for thin routes and hub-feeding.

  

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
If DL sign for 100 or so CS300, I think the doors are wide open for the future.

I think they will order 20 CS300s with an option for 20 or 30 more. The options will be converted once the product and markets prove themselves.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

I think flightglobal put the Cseries and the NEO waaaay closer than they are. What are the seat counts of both airplanes, in a comparable layout? What are, for ewample the floor areas of both aircraft? Although the CS300 is supposed to go up to 149 seats, it seems in a legacy configuration the seat count would be closer to 125, where the A319 takes 145 and the A320 seats 165.

Quote:
Citing the roughly 20-seat differential between the larger CS300 and the A320neo, RBC Capital Markets analyst Walter Spracklin says the equivalent CSeries competitor is the A319neo, which is not expected to be available until six months or a year after the A320neo's debut.

Isn't this "20 seat difference" more between CS300 and A319? Can the former really seat 145 seats in a typical legacy layout?

That would, as illustrated by Delta's RFP, make Cseries complement A32Xneo's more than compete with them. Indeed, the gap is narrow (and BBD knew it when they went for the 110-130 seats range) but bear in mind the mission profiles are different as well.

I think the Cseries will ultimately benefit from the A320neo's development. They can use a "big brother", that endorses the GTF technology but, in the end, not compete head to head.
Maybe Airbus and Bombardier *could* work together and offer a "package" to the likes of DL. There are many things that would need to be overcome but why not?


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

I don't disagree that the CS100 is in a bit of a dead zone being too close to the commuter market, but there is definitely a market between 100 and 150 seats. In my opinion a fleet of Q400s, CS300s, A321NEO, 787, 777-300 or A350-100, and A380 would make a very efficient and complimentary fleet.

User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

Quoting icna05e (Reply 16):
think flightglobal put the Cseries and the NEO waaaay closer than they are.
Quoting icna05e (Reply 16):
Although the CS300 is supposed to go up to 149 seats, it seems in a legacy configuration the seat count would be closer to 125, where the A319 takes 145

I don't agree with your first statement above. The fact of the matter is that a CS300 and an A319 each require a total flight crew of 5 (2 pilots + 3 FAs). The CS300 according to Bombardier has about 15% to 20% lower seat mile costs, Those benefits are derived primarily from lower fuel burn of the Pratt GTF Engine over the CFM56 and that the CSeries will be cheaper to maintain (the later is not so easily attained, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt). But, the A319 has 16% higher revenue trip potential (according to your second statement), So an A319NEO would really close the gap. And that is the basis of the FI article.

[Edited 2011-01-30 20:21:37]


Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5176 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):

I think working against the CSeries is perceived mission risk: clean sheet design basically in a whole different league than the manufacturer has competed in before + a new concept engine. BBD really do need to get it right, 1st time. They can't possibly afford a 787 scenario.

Did I miss something, or isn't this pretty much what Embraer did with the E-Jets?


User currently offlineKGRB From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 714 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
The CSeries was formally offered for sale in February 2008.

From then until last month, Boeing sold 154 737-700s.

Yes, the C-Series was first offered at the beginning of the worldwide economic crisis. Not many airlines were investing in new airliner families at the time. Those 737-700 orders were mostly top-offs, most likely, not airlines buying 737NGs for the first time.

As long as the C-Series enters service on time and has the advertised economics, airlines will bite. Airlines are just trying to avoid another MD-11/L-1011/787 fiasco.

The market is far from "d-e-a-d, dead, dead, dead," as one user put it.



Δ D E L T A: Keep Climbing
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 19):
Did I miss something, or isn't this pretty much what Embraer did with the E-Jets?

Yes you did. The CSeries is using a composite wing, all fly by wire, an entirely all new engine, and much more risky partners. The E-Jets were based on the CF34-8 built for the CRJ700 and this engine does not use unproven airline service or any service GTF technology. The E-Jets are command by wire (as opposed to fly by wire), and the E-Jets are conventional materials design.

Quoting KGRB (Reply 20):
The market is far from "d-e-a-d, dead, dead, dead," as one user put it.

He is talking about the CS100 seat range and various points were made to illustrate that. Care to elaborate why you think this market range is "far from dead"



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

CSeruies isn't selling because Bombardier's sales force does not know how to sell it. There have been several deals where they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

User currently offlineKGRB From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 714 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
Care to elaborate why you think this market range is "far from dead"

Don't sales of the E-190 & E-195 (and to a lesser extent, CRJ-900 & CRJ-1000) speak for themselves? Comparing the CS100 to the 736 or A318 is preposterous -- those aircraft didn't sell because of their economics, not their size.



Δ D E L T A: Keep Climbing
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

There sems to be two points of view here.
1.There is a gap in the market but no market in the gap.

2. That due to "new technology" operators are waiting to see whether it works.

Perhaps the MRJ and NEO can shed some light on the matter.

The MRJ has only attracted 2 orders and that in the larger 86-96 version (the smaller one a big fat zero). On this evidence one might say that (Option 1.) That taking in both manufacturers that there is no market betwwen 100-140 seats. This I do not believe. So it (to me) suggests the latter.2.That airlines are wiling to wait and see.The MRJ for instance is due to fly next year - so not much waiting time.

What technology are they waiting for?

Well it is obvious.The 20% reducing game changing engine -the GTF. Again this is endorsed by the engine choices made on the recent 320NEO purchases.....No engine choice - thay too are waiting for the same reason - the GTF.

Final proof could be in what South West are saying and indeed Boeing themselves. SW said they would be interested in an aircraft that had them (-20% engines) - if they work, but Boeing are saying that their NEO studies only throuw up single didgit improvements.Single didgit from a -20% SFC? Naw thats the new Cfm all right not the GTF. They too are waiting (and waiting!) to see if it works.

Thats not one but 4 aircraft manufacturers.And no doubt loads or airline companies for 90 seaters.130 seaters.150plus seaters etc. all waiting for the same piece of technology.

So I do believe that the market is there - for all of them.And yes P&W wil scoop the pot if they get this right. "IF".


25 manfredj : From Article: "At the same time, Virgin America chief executive David Cush explained that the carrier examined the CSeries, but stressed that it was a
26 Stitch : Actually, the CSeries was first offered during the worldwide airliner sales boom (when Boeing and Airbus were regularly selling over 1000 frames annu
27 SEPilot : Can you offer specifics? Also, how do you know this? I do think that if the C-series fulfills its expectations that it will be ultimately successful.
28 LHCVG : Thanks for the info! I was speaking just about how E-Jets were not a derivative of the other airframes Embraer was producing, but it certainly does a
29 tistpaa727 : You definitely have taken a lot of flak for this type of viewpoint and, in this case, I think you are correct. The C-Series biggest challenge is goin
30 Tangowhisky : Thank you for putting it this way. And I guess that is pretty much how the two sides differ.
31 SEPilot : For the record, I vote "#2".
32 bravo1six : The CSeries that was launched at the start of the Great Recession is not the same CSeries that was being contemplated during the boom you speak of.
33 Tangowhisky : Does not matter. Whether it was BRJ-X in the 90's, CSeries era before boom, boom-post-boom in 2004-2008, current era, you name it, I have not seen a
34 Viscount724 : That's not what LH said at the time of the order. They said they were to replace LX's Avro RJ100s, not LH 737s.
35 planemaker : One really can't exclusively look at the E195 as the E190 is close enough to cover many of the same missions. Considering that there is over 95% comm
36 icna05e : So, you say CS300 and A319neo will achieve similar trip costs? That seems hard to believe, even though I have to admit we lack hard numbers to compar
37 cloudboy : How does it compare to the Superjet? That is selling at least a few planes.
38 Tangowhisky : Yes. The CS300 will have a slight advantage. I will give you the small savings in ATC and landing charges, but those are small. Fuel, labor, and main
39 planemaker : More so in Europe than in N. America where ATC, landing and enviro charges are higher. But there is the logistical cost tail that varies from airline
40 Post contains images RussianJet : Ah yes, the A319 - what a complete flop that has been, eh?
41 dbo861 : Assuming the airline needs and can fill those 20 extra seats. If an airline needs a C300 sized aircraft on a route, the full (not to mention lighter)
42 astuteman : LH's EVP of fleet procurement Nico Bucholz said that "in a European environment" (1-2 hour sectors) the C Series would have a 2.5% - 4.5% cost advant
43 icna05e : SSJ is smaller, more like a E190 competitor (98pax std config). It has new engines but of conventional technology. But it would still be interesting
44 Viscount724 : Depends what you mean by large. But since you mention the 737-700, in the past 4 years Boeing has taken orders for 401 737-700s (including 17 -700BBJ
45 davs5032 : I can't disagree with you altogether, as you make several good points. However, I don't think the landing fee savings are small enough to simply writ
46 EnviroTO : Who said the A319 has been a flop? I'm saying that the CSeries will compete against it... that has nothing to do with having been a flop.
47 RussianJet : Nobody, but you mentioned the A319 (and the 73G) amongst other aircraft when saying this - .....which appeared to suggest that there was not much mar
48 AirNZ : What is this 737neo, or where did it come from other than a particular perchant here for inventing aircraft names? Or is because Airbus have the A320
49 QFA787380 : I think you well know what he is talking about. If Boeing chose to re-engine the 737NG, it would be a neo(new engine option). Maybe Boeing would call
50 EnviroTO : No, I am suggesting that with the CS300 coming out that post 2014 there will be a significantly reduced market for those aircraft. There will likely
51 Stitch : Why not use consistency in names instead of create something new that people will have to ask again and again what it means? Y(ellowstone) 1 was the
52 Tangowhisky : Sorry to bring this up again but I would like those on the side of the fence "2" to explain why they take that position given the analysis below. Mos
53 Post contains images planemaker : For a variety of reasons. The "less aerodynamic" is not the factor that many make it out to be on most of the routes that it flies. Same with the "so
54 JoeCanuck : The F-100, was killed when Fokker ran itself into bankruptcy. The Avro was/is a gas sucking pig. The B717 was an orphan for Boeing and the plane died
55 Tangowhisky : So, what if the F100 sold well, wouldn't Fokker still be alive? The company went into bankruptcy because it could not generate the cash it needed to
56 JoeCanuck : Fokker had over 200 f-100's sold. They went bankrupt due to crappy management. Their sales were fine. Development costs spiraling out of control basi
57 Tangowhisky : Excuses, excuses for a meager market.
58 JoeCanuck : Hey...everyone is entitled to their opinion...no skin off of my nose either way. BBD doesn't need me to make excuses for them. I just call them as I
59 ytz : Tangowhiskey, I'm sorry, but you seem to have a real hate-on for Bombardier. Did a CSeries jet run over your dog or something? Why this desire to see
60 davs5032 : Why bring up 50 seat RJ, which obviously has no comparison whatsoever to the market demand of the CS300. If the market didn't want or need a C series
61 Tangowhisky : ....and hence the purpose of this forum. Don't get me wrong, I do wish Bombardier success, it is just that I am not convinced that the CS100/CS300 ca
62 Post contains images LAXDESI : I have my doubts about CS100 being a good replacement for current 100 seaters. It is just too heavy. A E190/E195 NEO will be a better replacement. Ag
63 Dash9 : AFAIK BBD said the CS100 is the baseline and first to market, and CS300 is the stretch. If so then why is it that the CS100 would be too heavy? If it
64 Tangowhisky : One item that would push the CS100 weight higher is the fact that it has nearly 700 nautical miles of more range (bigger wing, larger gear wheels and
65 davs5032 : Yet another reason, IMO, why BBD should have gone with the "CS200 & CS400." I've all but given up on the CS100, but we'll see if it can find its
66 ytz : That's right. And how about holding your fire till then? You seem to be going out of your way to bash the thing before you've even seen any hard spec
67 JoeCanuck : The cs100 should be a superb hi/hot/short field performer. I think that's where it will find its niche. It should be able to haul a full load out of a
68 Tangowhisky : Out of my way to bash the thing? Is making points about the CSeries "market" bashing the thing or the plane? If you can't contribute to the discussio
69 BlueSky1976 : Very good comment. In my opinion, it will be a repeat of the Embraer's E-series. Embraer generally struggled with sales, especially for the larger E-
70 ThePinnacleKid : You guys all have some valid points... I personally was really excited and impressed by first impressions of the CSeries... that said, I now really d
71 apodino : I think one of the things that has hurt the 100 seat market in recent years is the Pilot Scope issue at the majors. Majors were trying to get lax scop
72 ThePinnacleKid : No they can't (most hubs are size oriented gate space and would have to be repainted/sized for larger equipment)... it was a big undertaking to re-si
73 apodino : Ok, in Terminal 1 in ORD, every gate is sized for a 737. I still don't see the problem here for UA. AA may have an issue, but I don't see it in T1. In
74 ThePinnacleKid : Oh, I agree... It CAN be done.. the issue I raise is because the 100 seat market would likely actually be a very large market with lots of airframes.
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