Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
SNA Departures: New Flight Plan  
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 821 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/new-286405-route-flights.html

May be a dumb question but throwing it out there:
What is the probability of this new flight route relaxing the curfew hours at SNA in the future?

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinegmcc From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

The curfews are not going anywhere until at least 2015 which is the current term of the settlement agreement between the County of Orange and the City of Newport Beach. Even then I expect that there will be some sort of extension worked out between the two parties to extend the agreement further into the furture.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26169 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2913 times:

Actually this change is tiny in the grand scale of things. Its the 2nd RNAV departure routing at the airport, and allows equipped planes to simply navigate more accurately instead of potential being off each side on a traditional departure route.

The flights and noise will still be there.

Quoting DTWLAX (Thread starter):
What is the probability of this new flight route relaxing the curfew hours at SNA in the future?

Zero.

Curfew was a court agreement that wont be touched for a while. Come December 2015 things could be reopened however the betting is that the County will leave things alone and let current things (esp the curfew and flight volume caps) run into perpetuity.
Any talk of additional flights, extended hours, would be a political hot potato. Several elected officials and nearby cities have already stated their opposition to anything that expands activity, while some folks in Newport actually would like to see a reduction.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2185 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Interesting. I noticed a bit of a different departure out of SNA last week--a few more turns than the usual departure. Perhaps it had to do with heading north to PDX and not LAS...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Several elected officials and nearby cities have already stated their opposition to anything that expands activity, while some folks in Newport actually would like to see a reduction.

You have to wonder how many of these people lived in Newport back before SNA was built in the 1930s...It's a shame because SNA is a great airport. I wonder how many of these Newport residents who complain about the noise hike up to LAX to catch a flight or fly out of SNA.

The comments are great on the story, btw.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 3):
Interesting. I noticed a bit of a different departure out of SNA last week--a few more turns than the usual departure. Perhaps it had to do with heading north to PDX and not LAS...

When going north from 19R you are almost always flying the Channel-1 departure. Initial climb is virtually the same as eastbound flights, but ATC has more freedom to vector the flight once it is over the water --which they do to keep SNA northbound departures clear of LAX departures. Eastbounds are Musel-6 or Duuke-2 and ATC might give you a vector, but it will appear to be almost identical to the published departure (turn a little earlier, straighten a couple of legs). At least to passengers that is.  



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Do all airplanes still do the 1) engine run-up before brake release, 2) steeper than normal climb, 3) power cutback at 800 or 1000 feet?

I know that AA got approval to fly their 738s on a normal departure profile, and I don't believe the ERJs do any kind of noise abatement procedure either.

What about other airlines? Last time I flew out of SNA on an AS 73G the power cutback was pretty benign. It was barely noticeable. The captain said they went from 18 degree climb to 12 degree at the power cutback. That's not much different than normal.

It was much more dramatic on an AS 734. You'd the jolt back into the seat at brake release and a pretty noticeable drop at power cutback. Same with the MD80.

For obviously reasons, this could be unnerving to someone who didn't understand what was going on (and didn't listen to the Captain's announcement).

I understand it's much more dramatic on a 757 also.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26169 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 3):
You have to wonder how many of these people lived in Newport back before SNA was built in the 1930s...It's a shame because SNA is a great airport.

In all fairness it was not really until the 1970s when commercial flight activity grew to decent volume. The need to remove the old shack and build a real terminal in its place is how the 1985 agreement came into place. OC was already quite dense by that time.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 3):
I wonder how many of these Newport residents who complain about the noise hike up to LAX to catch a flight or fly out of SNA.

Almost 18% of local outbound LAX flyers in 2009 were OC residents.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Almost 18% of local outbound LAX flyers in 2009 were OC residents.



I'll bet a lot of that was based on price. SNA fares tend to be higher than LAX. Obviously LAX serves more destinations too. If you are going to NRT, chances are you'll hike up to LAX.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2185 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 4):
When going north from 19R you are almost always flying the Channel-1 departure. Initial climb is virtually the same as eastbound flights, but ATC has more freedom to vector the flight once it is over the water --which they do to keep SNA northbound departures clear of LAX departures. Eastbounds are Musel-6 or Duuke-2 and ATC might give you a vector, but it will appear to be almost identical to the published departure (turn a little earlier, straighten a couple of legs). At least to passengers that is.

Interesting. On my AS flight heading north it seemed we had a few more turns while over land than my WN flight heading east. It wasn't anything drastic, and I probably wasn't paying attention on my WN flight.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
Do all airplanes still do the 1) engine run-up before brake release, 2) steeper than normal climb, 3) power cutback at 800 or 1000 feet?

Not sure about all airlines, but my WN 73G flight out of SNA a few weeks ago wasn't that drastic. We were pretty light though, only going SNA-LAS with 75 people. On my AS flight last week, it was very, very noticeable. Especially since my neighbor still had a water bottle on the armrest. You could really see angle of attack change once they cut the power.

The WN capt gave a quick pep talk, the AS capt didn't--probably since the 0645a flight is a commute flight.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
In all fairness it was not really until the 1970s when commercial flight activity grew to decent volume. The need to remove the old shack and build a real terminal in its place is how the 1985 agreement came into place. OC was already quite dense by that time.

Very true. But I still stand by my statement about these people complaining about living next to an airport. It was there long before they were. It was mostly orange fields in the 30s and 40s. It's like the people who live next to LAX and complain.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I'll bet a lot of that was based on price. SNA fares tend to be higher than LAX.

I don't think that's true as much anymore. At least on my routes, SNA is within $10-20 of LAX, and for that price the convenience is well worth it. Compared to that disgusting excuse of an airport LAX, SNA is worth a little more money. Time saved at security, rental car etc is well worth it. Especially if you're going anywhere in the southland.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
Do all airplanes still do the 1) engine run-up before brake release, 2) steeper than normal climb, 3) power cutback at 800 or 1000 feet?

1. Depends upon company policy/procedure. AA 752s & 738s are not required to hold the brakes. AA MD80s ARE required to hold brakes.
2 & 3. AA 738 = no. AA MD80 & 752 = yes.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 8):
Interesting. On my AS flight heading north it seemed we had a few more turns while over land than my WN flight heading east. It wasn't anything drastic, and I probably wasn't paying attention on my WN flight.

Normally northbound departures off of 19s do not go over land until north of LAX. For destinations that are east (i.e. RNO) you might see a turn overhead LAX (area) depending upon LAX outbound traffic. Beyond that, any turns while over land are based upon enroute issues, not departure issues.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 9):
AA 738 = no

Thanks AAR90. Yeah I flew an ex-QQ MD-80 from SNA-SEA (and had jumpseat authorization). We took of on 1L and he still held the brakes and did a steep initial climb.

Question: I know that that AA got approval to do a normal takeoff profile out of SNA 19R. Why then do AS and WN still have to do the special noise abatement procedure on their 73G and 738s? Not sure about DL.

[Edited 2011-02-02 12:11:40]

[Edited 2011-02-02 12:12:26]

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Question: I know that that AA got approval to do a normal takeoff profile out of SNA 19R. Why then do AS and WN still have to do the special noise abatement procedure on their 73G and 738s? Not sure about DL.

A lot of federal rules permit other airlines to "piggyback" on the development/testing done by one airline. SNA noise is NOT a federal program. Each airline must submit a proposed change along with the plan to show how you will prove the change will not increase your current noise levels. It is not enough to stay below the limits, you have to maintain (or decrease) your current noise levels. AA spent close to $1M to accomplish that for the AA 738 fleet. Supposedly the size of the fleet justified the costs with reduced engine maintenance costs. Other airlines would be required to make similar investments. Each different model acft must be certified by the airport and AA has only one model 737. I wasn't part of the decision process, but that is what was explained to us "line pukes"... it saves AA money in the long run.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1638 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Thread starter):
What is the probability of this new flight route relaxing the curfew hours at SNA in the future?

Equal to or lesser than LHR's third runway, or LGB abolishing its strict slot regime.

SNA's curfew shouldn't really be a huge obstacle anyhow. With the vast majority of flights being regional in nature (that is, within the Pacific or Mountain time zones), there is little need to depart much before 7 AM or arrive later than 11 PM anyhow. This isn't some major airport like NRT, LHR, or SYD where the curfew poses serious operational issues for long haul traffic.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
WN Adds New Flight In SNA posted Thu Feb 23 2006 16:47:22 by Wnsocal
New DVD Out Flight Plan ANY Thoughts? posted Tue Feb 14 2006 03:05:35 by USF100FAN
New Movie- Flight Plan posted Wed Aug 17 2005 20:19:26 by Mkeflyer717
Judge Approves Sun Country's Flight Plan posted Sat Sep 11 2010 17:51:45 by sunking737
Israel To Introduce New-flight Security System posted Thu Aug 19 2010 09:21:27 by luganopirate
SBN New Flight Announcement On Wed posted Tue Apr 6 2010 18:23:19 by FATFlyer
6 New Flight From DEN From Frontier? posted Thu Feb 4 2010 12:02:29 by PI731
Calgary - Heathrow New Flight? AC 852 posted Fri May 1 2009 15:41:58 by Kevin
Rumor - DL New Flight MEM-Unique Dest. posted Mon Apr 20 2009 18:35:26 by PHXtoDCAtoMSP
CSA Publishing New Flight To Novosibirsk posted Wed Mar 18 2009 21:19:05 by PRGLY