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QF Int - "slowly Dying" According To Alan Joyce  
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1523 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32740 times:

Interesting news item here.

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-international-slowly-dying-alan-joyce

Speaking in Melbourne, QF's CEO Alan Joyce says that his airline's international division may develop a new business model.

Joyce says that QF's market share in and out of Australia has dropped from 35 to 20 per cent. He maintains that 39 per cent more seats are being placed on the market by international carriers despite only a 10 per cent growth in passenger numbers.

Matters might get even worse [for QF Int] he says because "our competitors aren't even using their quota."

The QF boss believes future travel growth will come from Asia, especially out of India and mainland China.

I imagine one of the reasons for QF's loss of traffic is that the indirect carriers like SQ, EK, CX etc can target so many secondary destinations in Europe and Asia and feed them via the likes of SIN, DXB and HKG to various cities Down Under.

Look at Europe, for example, and QF itself only offers service out of two cities: LHR and FRA.

What do you think ?

194 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32752 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
What do you think ?

Short answer? Well Duh!

Long answer? QF, SA, NZ are only in the early phases of being seriously challenged. It's gonna get a lot worse. More European carriers will face the same challenges. Closer cooperation between these carriers may be needed in the long run. Form a block somehow. Better get crackin'.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32638 times:

That is what alliances are made for - bundle your traffic in airports that are well reachable by your partners. To my experience, One World is not working, tickets booked through BA are not accepted by AA I experienced. Cannot judge if it works between BA and QF.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5009 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32517 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
Cannot judge if it works between BA and QF.

Any idea if BA will accept QF e-tickets? I tried to travel BA once using a QF e-ticket and it wouldn't be accepted!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqblue From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32309 times:

Maybe the Canadian goverment have it right and The Austrailian goverment not to be so open with it's agreements.

User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32219 times:

Quoting qblue (Reply 4):
Maybe the Canadian goverment have it right and The Austrailian goverment not to be so open with it's agreements.

utter. garbage.

If the Australian government protected QF to the nth degree and heavily restricted foreign carriers inbound to Australia, then Australian travellers wouldn't travel as much as we do now.


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32155 times:

Quoting qblue (Reply 4):
Maybe the Canadian goverment have it right and The Austrailian goverment not to be so open with it's agreements.

The two countries cannot be compared in this way. Australia is the most isolated continent on earth. It can only prosper through ever better air links with the outside world even though this might be to the detriment of Qantas.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5009 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 31940 times:

Qantas is a survivor, I'm confident the brand will live on under the name JetStar*...


EK413

[Edited 2011-02-03 06:14:44]


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 31883 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
The two countries cannot be compared in this way. Australia is the most isolated continent on earth. It can only prosper through ever better air links with the outside world even though this might be to the detriment of Qantas.

Yes but in granting all those slots the government should have demanded rights for Australian carriers to have better access to those markets.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8498 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 31703 times:
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Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
Yes but in granting all those slots the government should have demanded rights for Australian carriers to have better access to those markets.

Australia and Qantas have always been getting slammed from Asia, its just its reached a level no one expected it to reach. The Asian airlines( SQ, CX, THai) ave been serving the australian cities from their hubs for years and several times daily to the larger Ausssie cities. Its the Middle East airlines that tipped this beyond a comfortable balance. Emirates, Qatar and Etihad have become larger then any one really predicted, could you blame part of this on the British government ? Its the UK who let Emirates and Qatar fly to EDI, GLA, Birmingham and Manchester allowoing one-stop connections to any Australian city.


User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31493 times:

Looks like they need to make more of an effort to codeshare with BA, CX and IB (and a lesser extent AY and MA) via LHR and HKG to feed their European and Asian flights.

Surely the point of OneWorld is to allow greater cooperation between airlines and to feed off each others networks?

Cheers

MCO 2 BRS


User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31483 times:

Personally I think they made a mistake putting all their eggs in the VLA bucket, first with the 744ER's then with the 380s. More 330's or 777's (either works) would have allowed them to becomes a much more relevant airline reaching many destinations that passengers actually want to go to. An airline that just shuttles passengers to LHR or LAX, will become increasingly irrelevant. With smaller aircraft SIN or HKG could have turned into a useful scissor hub allowing them to access more European destinations than just two big hubs.

Many Australians I know no longer fly them because they won't connect in LHR and they can use emirates or SQ to easily reach where they are going. Why take two hops when you can take one?


User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31344 times:

They need a new parent company/merger and fast. My guess is that before long Willie will be at the TOPof theCO  

Seriosly I don't know how this is happening as they don't face half the competition of say UA/BA/CX/NZ to name a few, fair enough they have EY/EY/SQ but they hava a much easier home market than half the legacy operators out there.


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31346 times:

Quoting scorpy (Reply 11):
Many Australians I know no longer fly them because they won't connect in LHR and they can use emirates or SQ to easily reach where they are going. Why take two hops when you can take one?

IMO, QF should look into PER-LHR/FCO/CDG. Perth is currently the only major city in Australia (bar ADL) with only one Middle Eastern carrier (EK 2 x daily) which means less competition. We also have significantly less competition regarding Asian carriers too (major players like SQ, MH, TG, CX are here but we have no CZ/VN/PR/JL etc)

This way, you're not only linking every single city in the Eastern states with a one stop service to Europe, you get a short flight followed by a long one, rather than two long flights sectors sliced in between. Perth may not currently have the most ideal airport for connections, but with the new international expansion project who knows what could happen? EK are keen to fly 380's here as soon as they can, and no wonder why - they are dominating the WA-Europe market!


User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31342 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 5):


If the Australian government protected QF to the nth degree and heavily restricted foreign carriers inbound to Australia, then Australian travellers wouldn't travel as much as we do now.

Actually, I'm thinking that the Australian government has been protectionist on the Australia-North America routes, but not in the direction of Europe. I haven't really understood the policy for that reason. For example, when Air Canada wanted to use fifth freedom rights to fly LAX-SYD, the Australian government said no. At the time, it seemed like this ruling was also meant to justify keeping SQ off the same corridor. And Air Canada and Air New Zealand were denied the right by Australia to operate a joint venture between Canada and Australia. If customer convenience was paramount, one would have expected Australia to agree to a liberalization of the Australian-Canada bilateral, but such is not the case.

I'm not saying Australia is right or wrong, just that the application of policy seems to have been different, depending on the corridor involved.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 30957 times:

The only viable business for QF beyond O&D Australia/NZ is flying passengers between SE Asia and South America. That is a tiny market to enrich QF's longhauls. Other competitors like EK and SQ live off conneting traffic.


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User currently onlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 30595 times:

Whilst the cause of this demise is much debated, I am far more excited and interested as to what recommendations from NZ executive Lesely Grant will come up with. Alan Joyce's comments regarding the growth of India and China are interesting along with the need to be a global airline, not just an airline moving passengers from And to Australia.... Any thoughts or ideas what this could mean?

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 30554 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 1):
Short answer? Well Duh!

My thoughts exactly.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Its the Middle East airlines that tipped this beyond a comfortable balance. Emirates, Qatar and Etihad have become larger then any one really predicted, could you blame part of this on the British government ? Its the UK who let Emirates and Qatar fly to EDI, GLA, Birmingham and Manchester allowoing one-stop connections to any Australian city.

So we should blame the UK - and M/E carriers - for QF's issues. It was not the UK or Emirates which forced Qantas to use 747s only on European flights, to the extent that they had to withdraw from AMS, CDG and various other destinations. That was Qantas's doing. Qantas chose not to get A340s or 777s - whose fault is this? I don't think that QF's long haul decisions would have stopped Emirates becoming as big as it did, but I don't think one can blame EK for building its business as it did. Australia gave EK the rights it has, including the right to fly to NZ (with the green light from them too).

The fact of the matter is that these decisions have been made; nothing can stop that now. The big question is that with EK and others having taken advantage of QF's strategic decisions, can QF now come back and rebuild its presence in those markets? I think JQ will see most of the international growth, but QF needs to decide its mission, purpose and "positioning" in the market. If it's going to be a premium carrier, BE a premium carrier and be very clear about that in its product and in its training. Its product needs to be better than JQ's the Australian consumer, shy and diplomatic as they tend to be, will let QF know if it's falling short.

Unlike EK, SQ and others, QF is the "terminus" airline; it's not a hub carrier, so really it needs to focus on how it can best re-establish itself in its home market. One way might be to aim at ULH flying; it can do the Hamlet act ("whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous Emirates ..."), or it can actually take decisions. If it doesn't VA will overtake it; why should QF lie still and allow VA to be the first to establish a ULH hub in PER, for example, when it could do it. Will it? I'm betting against it.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5157 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 30387 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 5):
utter. garbage.

If the Australian government protected QF to the nth degree and heavily restricted foreign carriers inbound to Australia, then Australian travellers wouldn't travel as much as we do now.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
The two countries cannot be compared in this way. Australia is the most isolated continent on earth. It can only prosper through ever better air links with the outside world even though this might be to the detriment of Qantas.


I have to assume from a lot of these comments, that the average Australian is quite happy to let its international traffic be carried and controlled by non-Australian carriers. So be it, it is their country, and they have the final say how it should be run.

At some point though, the needs of Australians are going to come second to those of the need for profit for a foreign carrier. By then it will be too late, and any new Australian carrier with Australia at heart, will be unable to compete with the behemoths now carrying their country's traffic.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 29892 times:

It seems to me that there are a plenty of holes in the the QF network. Can anyone explain the lack of GRU? I also see MAD, MEX, GIG, CDG, DXB, DEL, PEK, FCO as some glaring holes.

To combat the EK threat will take a combined alliance effort, where all members who are capable begin flights to DXB.

To DXB:
AA - JFK/ORD-DXB ?
AB - TXL/DUS-DXB
AY - HEL-DXB
BA - LHR/MAN-DXB
IB - MAD-DXB
MA - BUD-DXB
S7 - DME-DXB

From DXB:
CX - DXB-HKG
JL - DXB-NRT
QF - MEL/PER/SYD-DXB
3K - DXB-SIN



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5316 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 29568 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 19):

To combat the EK threat will take a combined alliance effort, where all members who are capable begin flights to DXB.

Why should they fly to Dubai? It is not Dubai that has the demand.... it is the connections on offer.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 29304 times:

Quoting ANstar (Reply 20):
It is not Dubai that has the demand.... it is the connections on offer.

Yes and no.
Most major carriers already fly to DXB. So, if they are allowed to cooperate from within their alliances and sell through tickets on each other, these carriers can try to emulate EK in a way, in EK's own backyard.

Big winner with this scenario would be DXB airport operations and Dubai. The whole world converging in Dubai.
If this is one way for major alliances to compete with EK, I see a great future for the new DWC airport.

EK may not be happy. But Dubai would be.
In the grand scheme of things, I think if Dubai is happy, EK will be happy after all, right? It's all one and the same, for now.

Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordania, Iraq, Oman and others could have all done this with a little vision. It's all about location and passenger redistribution. Kind of like a Grand Central train station.

How could other carriers compete with little investments? Meet somewhere where they all fly. DXB is still "it" in that region.

The fact that Dubai is in such a politically dicey region of the world may also hurt them. It's not all roses.

[Edited 2011-02-03 11:11:34]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinespud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 29212 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
Look at Europe, for example, and QF itself only offers service out of two cities: LHR and FRA.

So why carry on with these?

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 10):
Looks like they need to make more of an effort to codeshare with BA, CX and IB (and a lesser extent AY and MA) via LHR and HKG to feed their European and Asian flights.

Why not re-focus on delivering european bound passengers (and vice versa) to hubs like SIN, BKK, HKG and then let BA, AY, CX etc deliver those pax onto european airports using code shares and JVA. This would allow BA to go as far as these hubs (rather than continuing to SYD as they do from BKK and SIN) and then let QF and CX continue onto the Oz & NZ destinations.

Shame MH isn't in oneworld. KUL could be an excellent hub for oneworld carriers in the SE Asia region (since SIN and BKK are *A hubs) to complement the HKG hub further to the north. Has anything come of previous speculation that perhaps QF and MH might merge or at least work closer together?

Key to a lot of this is the OW partners need to work closer.

[Edited 2011-02-03 10:58:28]

[Edited 2011-02-03 10:59:32]

User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 27496 times:
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Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 10):
Surely the point of OneWorld is to allow greater cooperation between airlines and to feed off each others networks?

It most definitely will and don't call me Surely.      


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 25661 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
At some point though, the needs of Australians are going to come second to those of the need for profit for a foreign carrier. By then it will be too late, and any new Australian carrier with Australia at heart

QF has not helped itself here. It is has been Sydney-centric which meant airlines such as EK,QR etc could establish their Australian presence through cities like MEL, PER and BNE.

QF is a private business and it has to operate in what it perceives to be its best interests but it is a bit rich to court protection when it suits it whilst at the same time pursuing a strategy such as its Sydneycentricity and bypassing Australian employees through JQ and QF employees being based in Asia..

Quoting spud757 (Reply 22):
Key to a lot of this is the OW partners need to work closer.

Where QF is being slaughtered is on European routes where the Middle Eastern and Asian carriers can use their hubs to offer one-stop from Australian cities to just about every major and secondary European city. Oneworld is of limited assistance here because there is no Oneworld operator with a significant hub in Eastern Europe or Middle East. IB and BA are in Western Europe which means pax headed to Eastern adn Central Europe have to spend many hours backtracking. QF could use CX to offer one stop to many Euroopean cities via HKG but the relationship between QF and CX is testy at best due to competition on the Aust-HKG routes and the influence of JQ in Asia. Other Oneworld operators such as Royal Jordanian are too small to be of any assistance. For example had TK joined Oneworld rather than Star QF could have opened up a route between Aust and IST and then had TK offer the next sector into Europe.

I don't believe fleet choice is the killer decision everyone makes it out to be. Sure a 777 would have meant QF could have offered more European cities than it currently does but even then they could never offer the diversity of routes offered by SQ, EK etc. What is needs is a pseudo-hub in Europe/Middle East other than LHR. QF needs a partner to hub with just like it hubs with AA in LAX (and soon DFW).



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
25 ABpositive : One of the largest industries in Australia in recent times has been education - international students primarily from S.E. Asia, subcontinent and Chin
26 tayser : The average Australian probably doesn't give two hoots whether it's an Australian or foreign carrier - most foreign carriers have respectable brands
27 Viscount724 : Australia-US is an Open Skies market. It's much more liberal than the very restrictive (and old) Canada-Australia bilateral. Open skies of course doe
28 AFGMEL : Lots of competition. QF still has a good name with non-savvy locals who use travel agents. Not with me however. This year we are going to Europe again
29 ABpositive : QF can afford to jack up its J prices because most of its clientele are government and businesses here.
30 ag92 : I think QF needs to cooperate more with BA/CX/AA to really work it out. Their current system with BA I think is amazing for customers going to London
31 cpd : The average Australian prefers to fly or buy anything that isn't Australian. Because it's apparently uncool to buy or fly Australian, regardless of h
32 multimark : Let us know how it feels the morning you wake up and find international travel in/out of Australia is controlled by a small handful of non-democratic
33 Post contains images shamrock604 : I'll take your word for that as you are an Aussie, but it always seemed to me that Australians were sometimes a little bit too convinced as to the gr
34 Post contains images cpd : Here, if you buy anything Australian, or fly Australian, you are either a "bogan" or a "redneck" according to current popular culture. Ridiculous...
35 yellowtail : no suitable aircraft with the necessary range and lack ETOPS restrictions. EZE is about as far as they can get right now....nonstop.
36 shamrock604 : I agree - the production delays have hurt QF hugely. I'm not a fan of chasing market share blindly, but in OF's case, where it has just 20% of the ma
37 SexyAdonis : This is more of an opinion than actual facts. Again .. more of an opinion than an actual fact. If I were you, I sure wouldn’t. I do not know what A
38 cpd : Just look at the general public opinion, you only have to run Google search on the popular media websites to find plenty of examples of it. It's not
39 Post contains links StickShaker : QF put themselves in the position where they were very vulnerable to delays on these programs - particularly the 787. They had many opportunities to
40 MEA : I think there are 4 clear issues that QF needs to address: - the right aircraft for the right market - much needed cabin upgrades with full ife consis
41 shamrock604 : Thats a pretty good piece, that sums it up quite well I feel. Any airline that continues to cling to an obsession with premium bookings all the time
42 allrite : As I have written many times before, I've always enjoyed my flights on Qantas far more than on other, sometimes "5 star", carriers (note that I am di
43 Flighty : Thank you for that very interesting point. That has all kinds of implications.
44 Post contains images cpd : QF does a great job on the domestic flights too - and they are streets ahead of other places in the world where economy flying is a race-to-the-bottom
45 koruman : Qantas' long-haul problems are entirely of their own making. This is 2011: passengers outside Sydney no longer accept being funnelled through SYD, jus
46 allrite : Why should it bother? Is Dubai more geographically attractive than an Asian hub? On one hand the flight lengths to Europe and Africa are shorter, but
47 cpd : While all of their rivals rush to acquire the A380s - and then get even stronger on everything QF abandons? QF might as well just shut its doors and
48 LAXtoATL : That's an interesting concept.
49 jbguller : Isn't it ironic that after their monopoly has come to an end, and that more companies like VA are allowed to fly the Australia-USA routes, that QF is
50 AFGMEL : I really do not think that is true and as an Aussie, I am entitled to an opinion as well. My point above - backed up with actual dollar amounts - is
51 ZKNCL : Highly doubt that NZ is in trouble, so far they are making great profits and increasing seats plus they are planning to open more routes.
52 baw716 : He's right. Especially when they make really dumb moves like repositioning their 744 from SFO to DFW. If the flight could make DFW-SYD nonstop southb
53 gasman : Why must everyone always go looking for complex economic answers? The QF product has, over a period of approximately 15 years, progressively become ru
54 sydaircargo : well its not only that but flying these very old 747 does not help either if an SQ, EK offer modern A380 on those routes i fly to SYD next week ex FR
55 BA174 : It's not about their competitors having A380s it's about what fits QF. The statement above is probably been the line at QF and has then ultimately le
56 Post contains links N14AZ : There is an article on aero.de, apparently from the same press conference but with a different topic. However, according to that article CEO Joyces sa
57 vs25 : I dont have an answer for Qantas' declining international market share, however I have some thoughts. There is no doubt in my mind that the middle eas
58 n729pa : Qantas from Europe, have always been under a bit of pressure from traditionally the likes of SQ, TG, GA, MH, PR, CX in the past depending on your budg
59 anrec80 : IMHO, what definitely helps the "Big 3" is the strategic location of their hubs, half way between Asia and Europe, and well enroute between Europe and
60 cpd : That's interesting that there is "high demand", given the doom-and-gloom we've read above. If the B787 had actually been delivered on time, we'd be r
61 koruman : Have you ever been on a "noisy, screeching 777"? As you well know, economy passengers have always liked the 767 for its 2-3-2 configuration at the ba
62 LondonCity : [ well its not only that but flying these very old 747 does not help either if an SQ, EK offer modern A380 on those routes fly to SYD next week ex FRA
63 allrite : Based on the trip reports that I have read here on both EK and SQ (and likely others as well) I suspect that if many of their Australian/European supp
64 esdex : Joyce's comments just keep pointing at the future for QF being JQ. It would help the airline if Airbus and Boeing actually started delivering airframe
65 Flyingsottsman : The problem Qantas have is that they never want to go out of their comfort zone, (I think I have said this before when a thread about why they didnt g
66 koruman : What an extraordinary assertion! Jetstar may be the future for low-yield high-volume short-haul leisure routes, but why on earth does that mean that
67 Flyingsottsman : Couldnt agree more Koruman I have seen more QF metal parked at LAX than in Melbourne at the international gates. They are about profit first and serv
68 escapehere : No, that's not the case at all. Australians have very good bullshit detectors, and will not buy a worse product, with an equal or higher price when t
69 incitatus : The geography of air travel in Australia is very similar to that of Brazil. SYD = GRU, MEL = GIG, PER = MAO. All of you slamming QF for not flying lon
70 JerseyFlyer : BOM would fit
71 cpd : Well, you'd have guessed wrong. I will pay for quality, but I won't subscribe to the imported is better mantra that some of the people I know support
72 allrite : Look at other "terminating" carriers - those that originate everywhere other than Asia and the Middle East, eg Europe and the United States. Notice h
73 Post contains images Ben175 : Qantas has lost it's touch for me. I see it as a dry company with no personality or any Aussie spirit whatsoever. They need to get their act together
74 ElbowRoom : Fascinating thread. I am coming away with the idea that QF *desperately* need those 787s. They need to able to fly SYD-SFO and obtain reasonable yield
75 SEPilot : Passengers choose airlines for a variety of reasons. The first is price, the second is price, and the third is price. Once you get beyond that you hav
76 Post contains links Caribb : I just poseted this old Qantas route map on my flickr page... from 1973 http://www.flickr.com/photos/caribb/5408775461/ I just thought it would be int
77 LHRFlyer : Agreed. Even if the 787 makes additional destinations in Europe viable for QF, it will never be able to create a hub in Asia to rival the Middle East
78 SEPilot : Geography has a great deal to do with it. To make a truly global network you want to have a hub at a central point that is reachable from any destina
79 escapehere : Awesome map! Thanks for posting it. QF should definitely resume services to Tehran.
80 jfk777 : You want Qantas to fly to Iran, then it should fly to Caracas as well.
81 Thrust : It wouldn't surprise me if the November 4th engine explosion of QF A380 VH-OQA only caused their market share to drop further. I'm aware that the medi
82 Docpepz : Hmm SQ has: MAN MUC AMS ATH CPH FCO MXP BCN DME ATH IST ZRH CDG 13 destinations in Europe in addition to LHR FRA which QF serve. How does that indica
83 jfk777 : The economics of fly a 77W from Sydney to LHR for Singapore Air can't be that different then Emirates. Dubai to LHR is 6 hours, well Sydney to Singap
84 escapehere : Yes. Hell, QF should set up their hub there - ideally situated in the gulf region.
85 The Coachman : One of the major problems Australian passengers face with QF is that they are left with a choice of 2 departure points ex Europe on their return - LHR
86 ditzyboy : So you didn't have the Dreamtime seat in the Business cabin with 12 channel loop-based IFE? Also, the Business hard product product is better than th
87 Zkpilot : 2-2-2 is pretty standard on a WB with pretty much any airline. A 744 has 2-3-2 which is worse. The A380 has 2-2-2 on the UD (which is effectively the
88 jfk777 : Its better then the 2-4-2 of the original Business Class cabins. Is 2-3-2 really worse then BA's club in 2-4-2 with half teh seats facing backwards ?
89 Post contains images AirNiugini : I’ve been waiting for this thread for a little while now. What a great topic! I have a few questions that I’d like to ask just so I have a better
90 AusA380 : IN my case I will be going from SYD to Beijing in May. Looked at the QF fare and then SQ and Korean Airlines. Ended up booking with SQ, however, SYD -
91 shamrock604 : I bet you will find plenty of such examples across a range of routes! Here in Ireland, despite the fact that we are a major source country for Touris
92 Garpd : I said much the same thing to a friend of mine when QF ordered their A380s. We agreed that QF were pinning too much hope on large aircraft ferrying l
93 SexyAdonis : Buenos Aires is not really a “business route.” It is more oriented for leisure traffic so we do not really need to offer it on daily basis. The l
94 Ben175 : No, I didn't. I had the exact same 2-3-2 seating configuration (and the same seat, same IFE) that I had on my PER-SYD flight to connect to it. And fo
95 ditzyboy : You said you were in Business Class, unless I am mistaken?
96 Jackbr : I've always been intrigued by peoples complaints about Cabin Crew. Undoubtedly, they can sometimes be legitimate. Everyone has bad days. But I do love
97 Post contains images AirNiugini : LOL I agree.. Yeah Buenos Aires may have not been the best example to use, but the Asian examples maybe more relevant to the question
98 cpd : Bravo to that! About time someone said it. Out of all these grumpy ones, I must admit, I've never encountered them. The ones I've encountered always
99 AusA380 : Does raise another issue with QF. I require gluten free meals for medical reasons. On QF I can not get last minute upgrades as their systems/processe
100 AFGMEL : Indeed. It's a common complaint though. Fly the Asian airlines and then QF or god forbid, US based airlines and it's a shock. On QF in J, meals not b
101 Jackbr : I assume this was a JNB flight. They are very unpopular among crew as they tend to be one of the most difficult flights to work on. In addition, it i
102 Ben175 : My bad, I was getting confused with my JQ flight.
103 AFGMEL : Correct. But bear in mind I am not blaming the crew, but QF as a whole. I'm sorry, but MK is better - and cheaper.
104 ditzyboy : I don't mind JNB flights. They are busier purely because they are entirely daylight. To be honest, I do get spoken to poorly by some customers on the
105 Post contains images vheca : Could this work, say, opposed to a building funnell system in the Middle East? Everyone is promoting the growth of industry, technology and "money" o
106 eoinnz : Sorry but reducing one crew member shouldn't result in 3 hours without someone being in the cabin especially in Business Class. There is never an exc
107 allrite : Got a laugh out of your list. In the past I've had fairly little to do with flight attendants other than "chicken thanks, could I have an apple juice
108 Revelation : One of several well-written lines from that piece is: QF seems to have fallen in love with the one size fits all mentality, whereas their more nimble
109 miami1 : For all the Qantas lovers and all the Qantas haters, for all the 100 things we do wrong we do 100 things right, forget the nostalgia and the home bran
110 Post contains links ElbowRoom : The ridiculous thing is that they decided in December 2005 that they needed a big slug of 787s: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/051213h_n
111 Weebie : Most of Qantas traffic is London and Los Angeles. Tourism is not a big issue with Qantas also carry the 2 million expats overseas (who usually are cas
112 SCL767 : Also, QF competes with AR on the EZE-SYD route. AR currently operates EZE-AKL-SYD 5x weekly, however AR will soon reduce service into SYD to 3x weekl
113 tayser : Qantas STILL can do this - it is via proxy (3K / Jetstar Asia), but it has many opportunities up its sleeve to do this still. It just lacks the appro
114 escapehere : Don't you know? 99% of Australians live in Sydney, and on their holidays they only ever want to go to Disneyland, or go back to the motherland (with
115 AFGMEL : And THAT ladies and gentlemen, cutting through all the business speak, is the answer. You should be the CEO.
116 gemuser : Really, by who? The chances of CASA EVER approving the necessary EDTO ops approaches zero, The chances of them approving sub 60 degree South ops appr
117 Pnwtraveler : Fast forward a few years and calculate the loss of jobs for Australia for the prestige of having foreign carriers cream off enough traffic that intern
118 escapehere : It's not just convenience. The Australian economy benefits more from having a large number of competitors, greater choice, faster and more direct rou
119 Zkpilot : You could have been unlucky, or more likely the crew were still serving "demanding" passengers that are common on JNB flights (so serve everyone thei
120 AFGMEL : How very presumptuous. You must be work for QF. I did bother to read the menu. Lunch was supposed to be served and we did request it. For some reason
121 gemuser : Sorry, if YOU DON'T read, it is YOUR fault!!! Gemuser [Not associated with QF or ANY airline]
122 koruman : That is precisely why Qantas finds itself in this predicament. 2/3 of passengers flying from Australia to the UK actually terminate in an airport oth
123 travelhound : In Essenes I agree with the above statement / facts? as being one of the main attributes for loss of QF market share. If we look at the investment in
124 Post contains links AusA380 : smh.com.au article today Jetstar, not Qantas, as our national airline? Stay tuned "Joyce is highly regarded by many in the industry - crucially he has
125 koruman : Except for the fact that they will be afraid of undermining their A380 flagship operations if they do so.
126 Zkpilot : Chances are that none of those other flights were at the same time of day, were daytime flights like the JNB flight is crossing 10 time zones (SIN-LH
127 LAXintl : Love to know where you get those numbers. From BSP ticket survey dated June 2010, 64% of Australia-US tickets issued were for California destinations
128 Flyingsottsman : I could not imagine not having Qantas flying at all, and I dont think it will ever happen Qantas will always be around. But it realy needs to change
129 Post contains links and images EK413 : Probably QF could offer a similar connection on offer with the assistants of OW carriers IB (Madrid, Barcelona),BA (LHR,LGW,MAN), AB (Berlin,Munich,F
130 tayser : I'd still say it's less than 50% for LAX - take my upcoming trip for example, at the end of the journey I'm ending up in SFO, but my ticket to get me
131 VirginFlyer : Do you have details of the rest of the breakdown. At ~33%, is LHR the largest? Assuming it is, how large are the next ones (FRA and CDG would be my g
132 allrite : It seems like every CEO of any large Australian business is always predicting doom and gloom unless 1) The government legislates to protect them or l
133 EK413 : I hope QF lives on, however the strong and speedy growth of JQ indicate QF is heading out the door... I most certainly hope not as I always choose to
134 mdavies06 : People who choose to fly Japan - Europe with gulf state carriers should realise that the gulf state - Japan leg is almost just as long as the Europe
135 SexyAdonis : You are correct in pointing out that airlines like EK, SQ and CX have one hub only – DXB, SIN and HKG. You are also correct in bringing into view t
136 jfk777 : Lots has been made about Qantas being "Sydney centric" and not about Singapore. Qantas has a tremedous resource in hubbing in Singapore with nonstop
137 Post contains images EK413 : I see your point however if your read my quote carriers such as QR, EK, EY can swallow these loses much easier than say carriers of the likes of QF &
138 Post contains links and images allrite : Qantas to become the 'flying dragon'? Last I heard the sole remaining Qantas mainland China route - SYD-PVG wasn't yet making a profit, though it was
139 EK413 : That's strange, QF have increased capacity on the route now a B744 aircraft... So that would leave NIL mainland China routes for QF... EK413
140 allrite : I believe that the profitability trend was upward and Qantas were/are in the growth phase for the route. When we flew it mid last year on an A332 (us
141 aussie747 : The 744 has been withdrawn (think it might have been the time around when the a380'S were withdrwn from service after the QF32 incident) from the rou
142 koruman : Actually, no. You have just reported (accurately) that 46.08% of tickets sold are to LAX (72% of 64) and that 14.08% are to San Francisco, with the r
143 mariner : With the happy benefit of hindsight, I'd say the biggest fleet mistake Qantas made was staking so much of their future on the new technology of the 7
144 EK413 : Is it safe to say QF placed all their eggs in the one basket...? AC, EK, QR operate ultra long routes utilizing B77Ws / B772LRs... I'm sure QF could'v
145 Post contains images AirNiugini : Recently QF have stated that they are not interested in the A350 or 777 for now but instead are willing to wait for the 787-10 to be launched I'm not
146 escapehere : I assume it would be because they (will) have a large number of 787s, and the crew would be interchangeable between all models without extra training
147 jfk777 : QF waiting for a 787-10 is short sighted, why wait 7-10 years for an airplane that may never get made. If this doesn't make you "777" I don't know wh
148 ditzyboy : That was extra capacity for Amway, apparently. This is according to language FAs who do PVG every week. I can only see 744 flying in the FA pattern b
149 astuteman : In what way? 8 800Nm nominal with 250 pax was it's brochure range........ Of course, being in service now, it's engines, either GE or RR, wouldn't be
150 LondonCity : But remember that SQ offers Y pax the option of 2-4-2 seating on the A380's upper deck. Not sure, of course, how long SQ will maintain that nice zone
151 LAXintl : Sure people indeed might do their own thing, and purchase separate tickets which cannot be connected to their international journeys, however such su
152 Post contains images mariner : It's one of the very few times in my life - the only time? - that I have agreed with Richard Aboulafia, when he referred to "the drug like rush of th
153 LAXintl : Further, I found following information on locations visited by Australians in 2007. Places Visited in the U.S.** Los Angeles 58% San Francisco 39 New
154 Post contains images astuteman : As a direct 787-8 competitor, I'd have been comfortble with that too. It's clear in hindsight it would have been extremely successful. But Airbus had
155 mariner : Well, well, it's all water under the bridge now, or spilt milk, but I think that it would have bought Airbus the precious gift of time, and, hindsigh
156 Post contains links LondonCity : Following on from comments made last week by QF's Alan Joyce, the boss of EY now tells the " Qantas chief to stop complaining." Apparently, according
157 tayser : The dirt that is dug up and put on a boat to China may be in WA or QLD but I keep beating on about this, the corporates, the supporting industries an
158 Post contains images mariner : That may be true, but is that any reason not to take advantage of the golden west? I'm not saying it should be only the west. mariner
159 gemuser : Assuming there is sufficient money actually there to make it worth while, of course its not. I do not know if there is or not, but I am reluctant to
160 Post contains links mariner : There's enough money for Emirates. And despite this: There is formidable wealth in the west, starting with Australia's richest person - a woman - who
161 tayser : and many of them fly in/fly out of the South East. Again, it's not just about the HQ's it's all the consultants, engineers and everything else that s
162 Post contains links mariner : Yes, a great many of them are - but far from all of them. It would be strange to imagine that none of those people ever go on site. You don't think t
163 gemuser : QF does NOT have an anything centric strategy!!! EXCEPT for a PROFIT centric strategy! Even for the 49% of it's life it was government owned it was s
164 mariner : Whatever strategy you want to call it, CEO Joyce seems to think it isn't working. mariner
165 tayser : yes.... fly in / fly out - from BNE/PER/MEL to sites or between MEL/SYD and BNE/PER/ADL I have no doubt they do - but it's minute compared to the amo
166 mariner : And if I moved back to Australia, it would be to Victoria. I'm not suggesting that Qantas ignore Sydney or Melbourne or Brisbane. I'm not suggesting
167 lhr380 : What do you mean, what were you trying to do? There are hundreds of BA 125 tickets used on QF flights, and hundreds of QF 081 tickets used on BA flig
168 gemuser : Quite likely QF need to review and change tactics, the strategy to make the most profit does not change, it can't for a commercial organisation. Gemu
169 Zkpilot : Seems that after DJ/VA getting close with EY and NZ, NZ and EY are now starting up a codeshare agreement
170 mariner : Pretty much every business out there is driven by profit. I know if very few businesses set up to lose money, except non-profit organizations. The st
171 gemuser : They certainly are. Will it be successful? Who knows! There are some in the industry around SYD that think they'll fall flat on their faces, due to t
172 mogandoCI : it all equals out. SQ flies 6-7 hours out to SYD, while EK needs 14-15 hours.
173 mariner : I dunno if they'll be successful, but Mr. Borghetti is one smart cookie. Of course there are. Especially at Qantas. LOL. mariner
174 gemuser : That goes without saying! There are others, outside QF, who see JB as trying to turn DJ into QF II. Many, myself included, have doubts about THAT tac
175 mariner : I think he may be. And I don't know what else he should do. But he has a certain ruthlessness. He cut NZ domestic, for example, rather than hanging o
176 DH2Beaver : Why should Aussies pay more for less - the Qantas long haul product is more expensive and offers much less in terms of quality than a multitude of oth
177 esdex : True that this train of thought doesn't have a PhD thesis behind it, but also true that Qantas first class is a shadow of its former self from both s
178 escapehere : Err what? Where did you hear that? The entire of NSW and VIC put together only account for about 45% of Australian GDP.
179 tayser : QLD and WA have high GSPs as their net exports are huge (i.e value of commodities they export is large as opposed to what they import), VIC and NSW h
180 Post contains links mariner : I wouldn't think that - certainly not for me. As I said above, if I came back to live in Australia, it would be to Victoria. But whatever the state o
181 koruman : Let's say that the Sydney-centric network means that Qantas is doing satisfactorily out of SYD. That means that the problem must be out of BNE, MEL a
182 FlyPNS1 : QF already flies BNE-LAX and MEL-LAX. CNS-LAX is too long, thin and low-yield to have any real viability. BNE/MEL-SFO might work, but with no real Am
183 koruman : Here you are talking about a low-yield-configured 787-8 (same configuration as would be used on routes like SYD-HNL or Asia-secondary UK), probably 1
184 esdex : The 788 is an important choice for QF/JQ no doubt. Some of these routes could be interesting, but frequency supports capacity too and over long trans
185 brad330 : A friend from CNS airport says that there is enough demand for a daily 787 PER-CNS-LAX because you can sell tickets for three different sectors: -CNS
186 gemuser : I hope he is right, but I have my doubts. Gemuser
187 ADDICT4QF : To make the financially struggling Qantas International Business situation even worse, it is dissapointing to see that the Pilots Union is threatening
188 AirNiugini : Well said. The point you raise is something that I think about quite a lot. Whether Australian like it or not, Qantas is a global business. Its main
189 Zkpilot : QF had a BKK base for many years until last year. It was closed mostly because the Thai Govt had a law saying local based employees had to be paid th
190 Jackbr : Did the BKK crew just operate between LHR and Australia, or across the board like the AKL base?
191 Zkpilot : IIRC they flew everywhere except the USA due visa restrictions.
192 cpd : That whole issue is quite a hot potato to deal with. Whichever way you turn, you'll upset someone. Either existing workers whose jobs are being outso
193 EK413 : Today's QF73 departed with a very light load in the Y/C cabin... Both J/C and P/Y cabins full but more than likely points upgrades... EK413
194 Post contains links esdex : Looks like the Sydney Morning Herald - OK, yes, mainstream press - are picking up on the same vibe from AJ though... http://www.smh.com.au/business/j
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