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SAS Captain Asleep, FO Locked Out..  
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 22853 times:

The PF fell asleep from fatigue at the controls while the FO was on a toilet break. The FO had to bang on the door vigorously to wake up the Pilot Sleeping and be let in. The Captain complained of heavy rostering and SAS was sympathetic.

Reported in Aftonbladet and other Swedish Newspapers:

http://www.thelocal.se/31810/20110203/

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22604 times:

This is slightly off-topic, but with the door reinforcements what happens if the pilot in the cockpit becomes incapacitated (too deep sleep, oxygen problem, stroke, etc) while the other one is on the potty break? Game over?

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22591 times:

So I'm guessing SAS doesn't require an additional crew member be on the flight deck when the Captain of First Officer leaves the flight deck?


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22592 times:

Don't some flight deck doors have combination keypads that allow access to flight crew?


Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlinetonyban From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22495 times:

Some RFID access control cards would take care of this issue....one issued to each pilot and one card hidden somwehere is the aircraft.

User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22243 times:

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 3):
Don't some flight deck doors have combination keypads that allow access to flight crew?

I believe this only happens in some aircraft/airlines.


User currently offlineYYZRWY23 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22112 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 1):

I believe there is another way to access the flight deck. Whether it be by keypad, some kind of key, or maybe even removing the door entirely. I don't know if the last one can be done or allowed, but I see it as one of the few options if the others are not in place.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
So I'm guessing SAS doesn't require an additional crew member

Only some airlines have this as part of SOP. I have heard of airlines making the pilot still in the flight deck do the oxygen mask in this circumstance in case of rapid decompression.

YYZRWY23



If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
User currently offlineMD11Bob From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 110 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22079 times:

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
The FO had to bang on the door vigorously to wake up the Pilot Sleeping and be let in.

Wouldn´t it be a more professional attempt to solve the problem by trying to call from the galley? Think it would be better than banging at the door. Do the intercom phones have some sort of loud ringtone?


User currently offlineSASDC8 From Norway, joined Mar 2006, 755 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22032 times:
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Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
The FO had to bang on the door vigorously to wake up the Pilot Sleeping and be let in

That is not correct! The FO called twice and the captain opened the door as stated in the original article in Aftonbladet.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article8506413.ab



2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
User currently offlineDogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 21943 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 1):
This is slightly off-topic, but with the door reinforcements what happens if the pilot in the cockpit becomes incapacitated (too deep sleep, oxygen problem, stroke, etc) while the other one is on the potty break? Game over?

Most airlines will not allow only one pilot to remain in the flightdeck by themselves for the exact reasons you describe. However it seems that SAS allow this to happen (incidentally so does BA - which is surprising). Not a good move in my opinion.

In my current airline and previous airlines a cabin crew member is to remain in the flightdeck with the sole pilot until the return of the second pilot.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3526 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 21780 times:

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 9):
In my current airline and previous airlines a cabin crew member is to remain in the flightdeck with the sole pilot until the return of the second pilot.

Concur - as far as I know most airlines have a cabin crew member take the leaving pilot's spot in the cockpit until he/she returns.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1783 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 21719 times:

Alot of airlines permit there to be just one flight crew member in there. What I don't understand however is why the F/O didn't use the emergency access code which allows flight/cabin crew to enter the flightdeck.


Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 768 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 21564 times:

This wouldn't be permitted in the USA (a FA or jumpseater needs to take the place of the pilot when they are using the toilet)

User currently offlineUTAH744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21421 times:

With one person in the cockpit while the other uses the toilet who looks through the peep-hole to see who is requesting entry? That is why there should be a FA up there. The other option would be to just electronically open the door to whoever rings (returning pilot, nutcase, terrorist.)


You are never too old to learn something stupid
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3047 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21369 times:

I think there are several inaccuracies here. As stated, almost every airline requires a second crew member to take the place of the exiting crew member when he/she leaves the fligth deck. Plus, the secure flight deck door has a design in place to prevent a legitimate crew member from being locked out in the event that one or both pilots are incapacitated. I don't know the details of this event, but I'm willing to bet it's an inaccurate report.

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 13):
With one person in the cockpit while the other uses the toilet who looks through the peep-hole to see who is requesting entry?

Some airplanes also have cameras around the door area so the crew can see who is near the door without having to leave their seats.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21251 times:

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 11):
What I don't understand however is why the F/O didn't use the emergency access code which allows flight/cabin crew to enter the flightdeck.

Because, as the article said, the Captain woke up and let the FO back in before that was necessary

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
Plus, the secure flight deck door has a design in place to prevent a legitimate crew member from being locked out in the event that one or both pilots are incapacitated.

  



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3047 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21029 times:

Yeah, I was being intentionally vague for obvious reasons, but they (whom I know) thought of all these issues when they designed the secure door. Keep the bad guys out, but designs are in place for stuff like decompression on either side of the door, the aforementioned incapacitation and a rescue on the ground if firefighters have to rescue the pilots.

User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1783 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19003 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
Because, as the article said, the Captain woke up and let the FO back in before that was necessary

Why would he bang on the door in that manner though when he could descreetly use the emergency code?

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 13):
With one person in the cockpit while the other uses the toilet who looks through the peep-hole to see who is requesting entry? That is why there should be a FA up there. The other option would be to just electronically open the door to whoever rings (returning pilot, nutcase, terrorist.)

They have cameras in there to see and the use of the emergency code can still be denied by the pilot if he is in a position to do so or if it is necassary to do so.

Plenty of airlines allow toilet breaks without the need for crew member to take their place on the flightdeck.



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18746 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
Plus, the secure flight deck door has a design in place to prevent a legitimate crew member from being locked out in the event that one or both pilots are incapacitated.

The crash axe? 


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3047 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18613 times:

No, the crash axe sure as heck isn't on the passenger side of the secure flight deck door these days. What do you think?

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18462 times:

There was a case where the door jammed on a CRJ and the crew had to remove the hinges.

Pilot Locked Out Of Cockpit On Air Canada Plane (by Eksath Aug 30 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I would hate to remove the door by myself with the plane on autopilot.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1207 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17432 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
So I'm guessing SAS doesn't require an additional crew member be on the flight deck when the Captain of First Officer leaves the flight deck?

Forgive me for asking, but who does?



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3047 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16882 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 21):
Forgive me for asking, but who does?



Most other operators.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1207 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16773 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 22):
Most other operators.

I know a lot of operators that do not require an additional crewmember when a pilot leaves the flight deck. To be honest I do not know any one airline with that requirement on short haul routes. Could you give me just one example?

[Edited 2011-02-03 14:39:30]


747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16300 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 23):

I've had it happen on flights with US and DL where the F attendant would stand in front of the flight deck door. I can't remember if I've ever seen them actually go into the flight deck.

A little off topic, but did they overfly MSP?!
  



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
25 KC135TopBoom : Well once the pilot woke up to let the FO in, that means he had to leave his seat, right? Then who was flying the plane in that brief minute or two? I
26 Navigator : No, I think he can let the other pilot in without leaving his seat
27 BoeingGuy : AS, AA for example. Also according to the FARs, the crew should only leave the flight deck for "physiological reasons". Thus, they probably shouldn't
28 Post contains images Navigator : To be honest I think any pilot on a shorthaulflight with the airlines you mention will leave the flight deck to visit you know what without the hassl
29 comorin : Sorry, my bad. Well at least this should restore the honor of AI as it looks they are in good company.
30 goblin211 : I think the only real answer to this problem is get enough sleep the night before. all the above scenarios are all plausible but too unlikely enough t
31 cpd : Overhead switch I think - (lock/unlock, etc).
32 Post contains links skysurfer : No door to have to worry about on this flight, hopefully the other pilot was maintaining some kind of 'awareness'! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=265_
33 DALALWAYS : At DL we are required to have 2 crew members in the flight deck at all times. However, this can be bypassed if there is a qualified flight deck jumps
34 Post contains images Stabilator : I thought that was the case, thanks for clearing that up .
35 flyfree727 : You are wrong if you are referring to AA. If a pilot leaves the cockpit for any reason on any flight, another crew member MUST be in the cockpit so t
36 CO777DAL : Continental Airlines does. I have been up front many times and seen a F/A go into the cockpit when a pilot needs a break and another FA stand in the
37 bonusonus : On B6, when a pilot needs to use the restroom, the FAs barricade entry to the cockpit door with a beverage cart. I'm not sure if they still do this, o
38 N353SK : In the US this is required by law above FL350.
39 BoeingGuy : Yeah, I was correct. I thought every US airline, at least, required another qualified crew member to go onto the flight deck if one pilot has to leave
40 YYZRWY23 : I remember reading TR's that said they used to do this on the upper deck of the 747 at NW. YYZRWY23
41 FlyASAGuy2005 : I can't think of one US operator without this policy. One of the F/As always takes the place of the pilot exiting the a/c unless there is someone in
42 Post contains images Aesma : Can you easily hear someone banging on the reinforced doors ? This makes me think of the time I wanted to visit the cockpit of a full Corsair 747 mid
43 Sandager : Aircrafts with more than 200 (?) seats or so will need to carry 2 crash axes. If the legal requirement is only one ax, this one will be in the cockpi
44 hz747300 : On Cathay, in the upper deck business class, the FA stood by the door while the pilot used the lav. This was a shorter flight on the 744, HKG-SIN.
45 baw716 : Does this policy apply to all short haul flights? I ask simply because I am curious. On long hauls where there is a third and possibly fourth pilot a
46 Post contains images Maverick623 : You must not have heard of US, DL, AA, CO, UA, WN, B6, etc... Absolutely. It works both ways... if you're sitting within about 10 feet of the door yo
47 Post contains images baw716 : Thanks for your answers...some thoughts: a) I don't need specifics on how to access a cockpit from the outside (I don't plan on flying the plane, so
48 Post contains images Maverick623 : I didn't think you'd want them, but there was a thread a while back where someone let it slip, so I thought I'd make a preemptive strike Glad I could
49 Navigator : I believe you of course.. This might be an FAA rule... But since I have not seen it in Europe it seems different rules apply here.
50 Dogbreath : Well believe me Navigator, it happens here in Europe. Is an SOP in my airline. Have been in 3 airlines and has been the same rule everytime.
51 Navigator : I believe you too of course. I pull back to scandinavia then... maybe we have too lax rules here or else we don´t follow the rules set up?
52 vfw614 : Pardon my ignorance, but if you can open the door from the outside with a security code known to (some of) the crew, doesn't that make the whole thing
53 CX Flyboy : That isn't policy though.
54 Post contains links CYatUK : What you are mentioning is very similar to the HELIOS accident where as a result of no cabin pressurization, both pilots were incapacitated and (obvi
55 Post contains images chrisair : I think you missed the in my post..... I've heard the
56 Maverick623 : There are multiple levels of security built in and around the cockpit, all of which can be overridden from inside the flight deck. If they don't want
57 bj87 : Well when you gotta go you gotta go. So I guess it is not always possible to have two people in the cockpit on relatively short flights. Can't say it
58 Post contains images Airbalticfan : Very good point! It seems like it is a game over ! But the whole situation in this case is simply priceless, this should not happen in any time, airl
59 christopherwoo : To follow up - While obviously its not a good idea to reveal security information - rest assured that measures are in place to ensure that even someo
60 flyfree727 : you seem to forget there are (depending on the size of the a/c) 100-400 "other" brute force passengers who are there also.. It's not a 1-1 any longer
61 Navigator : You must accept that there are other views on this. Disciplinary action against what? He fell asleep... And as we can see there are obviously differe
62 BoeingGuy : Concur completely. Someone was once talking about the bad guys rolling a galley cart down the aisles as a battering ram. Yeah, right. Like all the pa
63 chrisair : I read a story somewhere that a pilot recorded the fire warning and used it as his ring tone. All was well and good until he forgot to turn his phone
64 FlyASAGuy2005 : Overkill? How? Do you know how much those beverage carts weigh full? The cart is turned to the side to block the isle to the forward galley and lav/c
65 BoeingGuy : A bigger problem was that the Captain had his cell phone turned on during takeoff, or anytime in flight.
66 flyfree727 : There are so many other procedures for having a f/a stationed at the cockpit door, but since you obviously don't have the "need to know," you won't u
67 FlyASAGuy2005 : Uh oh, misquote. That wasn't me. That was bj87.
68 flyfree727 : Please accept my apology. AA ORD
69 CXfirst : Most flights I've been on have this. IIRC, the door will not unlock straight after the correct combination has been entered, allowing the pilot to ov
70 HAWK21M : Shouldn't the crew member in the Flight deck have company on such breaks ....
71 enilria : You must like the movie Aliens..."Game over, MAN!" If you hide it then a dinner knife to the throat of a crewmember might allow it to be located and
72 alwaysontherun : Although I agree that it would be more difficult for "mister Suicide" to control a plane full of pax these days, please bear in mind that there are f
73 YYZYYT : Much debate over whether this is (or is not) allowed, whether SAS captain was (or was not) ignoring rules... as always, illuminating. But it strikes
74 Post contains links ADent : Were both crew members in the cockpit when the pilot put his teenagers behind the wheel on that Aeroflot flight? There was an incident mentioned here
75 AirlineCritic : Egypt Air flight 990. Captain went to the loo, co-pilot crashed the plane (possibly on purpose). Methinks that with captain the cockpit, this would n
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