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What Replaces The MD-11F At FDX And UPS  
User currently offlineCMB56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 231 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7923 times:

I would like to throw this out for discussion. Given that both FDX and UPS have significant numbers of MD-11F aircraft that will need to be replaced eventually. What would be the better choice (777 or 330) and how far ahead should replacement be considered given the backlog for both types.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

Well as I learned in one of my previous threads, the 777 and MD-11 have almost identical fuselage sizes, so I would go with the 777.


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlinedispatcher From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 253 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7864 times:

Since FedEx already has 777's and UPS follows what FedEx does.. my bet would be 777's.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

It's almost certainly 77Fs, what is more a mystery is what will replace FedEx's large fleet of MD-10s/DC-10s.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7811 times:
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Quoting CMB56 (Thread starter):
Given that both FDX and UPS have significant numbers of MD-11F aircraft that will need to be replaced eventually. What would be the better choice (777 or 330) and how far ahead should replacement be considered given the backlog for both types.

The 777 is a better match to the MD-11F on payload weight and payload volume than the A330-200F.

FX is adding 777 Freighters by the shedload and they are widely believed to be a customer for the Boeing Converted Freighter option of the 777-200ER passenger model.

The A330-200F makes an excellent MD-10F replacement in terms of payload weight and volume, and FX has been giving it a hard look for that role.

FX also has a pretty big A310F fleet that has passed the quarter-century mark in terms of average age, so I would not be surprised if Boeing has not been pitching them the 767-300ERF as a replacement as well as for the A300F.



As for 5X, they will almost assuredly move to the 777 Freighter as an MD-11F replacement, as well. With their 767-300ER fleet, I kind of think they may not be as interested in the A330-200F as an A300F replacement.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7762 times:

Considering FX has already ordered and started taking deliveries of the 777F (In addition to picking up some of AF's 777Fs), they've pretty much got their MD-11 replacement all but settled. The 777Fs will replace the MD-11s on international routes and the MD-11s will replace the MD-10/DC-10 on the routes they currently fly.

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As for 5X, who knows what they'll go for as an MD-11 replacement. Considering they still operated the DC-8 up until a few years ago, they may keep those MD-11s in service for years to come. The rumor is that they will order the 777F at some point as well. Then again, some of that capacity could be handled with some of the 763Fs they have added to the fleet in recent years (and will add a few more through 2012) as well as some of the 744Fs they added to the fleet a few years back. Perhaps they may look at the 748F as their MD-11 replacement seeing as they are a 747 operator and it may make more sense to just go with the 748F.


User currently offlineKHPN From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7730 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
Perhaps they may look at the 748F as their MD-11 replacement seeing as they are a 747 operator and it may make more sense to just go with the 748F.

from your lips to boeings ears


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7722 times:

There is nothing that is sacred about any particular aircraft size. I suspect that both FX and 5X are looking at what aircraft offer the best economics for the way they want to use them; they may replace a particular aircraft with one of similar capacity, but they also might upgrade or downgrade as traffic changes. But it is pretty clear that the ideal replacement for the MD-11 is the 777F. I suspect that 5X may be more likely to go for converted pax birds; they seem less interested in new planes than FX.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7513 times:
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Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
Perhaps they may look at the 748F as their MD-11 replacement seeing as they are a 747 operator and it may make more sense to just go with the 748F.

There was an interesting story on how FX and 5X treat the Chinese market. FX has gone for non-stop services between China and North America, using the 777 Freighter's range. 5X follows the more traditional model, using 747s for their raw capacity and making a stop in ANC before heading on to SDF.

5X's 744Fs are quite young, though if they choose to continue to follow their current model, the 748F would allow a nice boost in payload weight and payload volume along with efficiency.


User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2167 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7387 times:

Considering FedEx is still picking up MD11's...supposedly for charter...I don't think they are going anywhere soon. There will be some routes/charters where 3 motors will work better than etops. For the MD10 fleet I think the eyes have to looking at the 777-200f conversions....will they work for the fedex model and let them standardize cockpit and parts to a certain extent? If the conversion works then that shud be the route.

UPS? hell...you never know...grin...mebbe the an24? grin. Seriously..744f and 748f along with 777-200f.

Think airbus would have to fire sale their frames and also the 777-200f hiccups badly for either going to airbus....methinks it is Boeing's to lose.....which is not that unthinkable.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

In all comparison, the 777F has the best payload/range combination compared to the MD11. If the Airbus would come out with a stretched A333F with the greater payload and range of the A332F then I would say the 330 has a chance to compare to the MD11F.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6539 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7203 times:

A333F : not feasible.

The next freighter by Airbus will be the A350F (based on the -8 or -9 or a mix of both).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 10):
In all comparison, the 777F has the best payload/range combination compared to the MD11. If the Airbus would come out with a stretched A333F with the greater payload and range of the A332F then I would say the 330 has a chance to compare to the MD11F.

The A330 is a fundamentally smaller airfame than the 777. I do not think it is capable (at least with current technology) of matching the MD-11 in range and payload. The A350 has a better shot, and if Airbus introduces it sooner rather than later, it has a shot at replacing the MD-11F's at UPS; I think the 777 has a lock at FX.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6281 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6971 times:

Quoting dispatcher (Reply 2):
UPS follows what FedEx does

As in the case of the 757 ?   

But I think that 20 years from now we are going to have a whole new ball game and the field hasn't yet been built.



Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
The 777 is a better match to the MD-11F on payload weight and payload volume than the A330-200F.

  

When it comes time to replace the MD-11F's, it will undoubtedly be the 777F at FX. However, that time is still to come, as they just bought 4 more from Transmile.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
what is more a mystery is what will replace FedEx's large fleet of MD-10s/DC-10s.

     

From what I understand, pretty much ALL options are still being looked at. These include, but are not limited to:

777F
777BCF
A330-300P2F
A330-200F
A330-200P2F
767-300F
767-300BCF
Other. . .  

FX keeps getting strongly rumored as the launch customer for the 777BCF. However, the costs for such a program are an open question. . .

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
As for 5X, they will almost assuredly move to the 777 Freighter as an MD-11F replacement, as well. With their 767-300ER fleet, I kind of think they may not be as interested in the A330-200F as an A300F replacement.

IMO, the book closed on the A332F at 5X when they cancelled the A380F. 5X could have easily switched the deposit to A332F's (the deposit on the A380F order itself came from the A300F cancellation). Instead, they cancelled the order outright and later bought more 767F's. Once again, when the time comes, 5X will most likely go 777F, with the 748F an outside possibility.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
I suspect that both FX and 5X are looking at what aircraft offer the best economics for the way they want to use them; they may replace a particular aircraft with one of similar capacity, but they also might upgrade or downgrade as traffic changes.

100% agree. Just look at what FX bought when they cancelled the A380F. . .

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
I suspect that 5X may be more likely to go for converted pax birds; they seem less interested in new planes than FX.

   Look at 5X's fleet again. The 757F's, 767F's, A300F's, and most of the 744F's are all new-builds. 5X was the launch customer for both the 757-200F and 767-300F. As a percentage, they have much more purpose-built Freighters than FX does.


Regards,

Hamlet69   



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Could FX or 5X ever consider a C-17 for their missions?

User currently offlinecfmitch56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 14):
777BCF

Secondhand pax 777 would likely be somewhat older than the MD-11's were when they were converted, however, someday the 777 will be priced appropriately for conversion to cargo, so I agree with Hamlet here. Is there anything technically limiting pax 777 to F conversions? Install a door, new floor, plug some exits, windows, etc.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...edex-and-boeing-in-talks-on-7.html
This article gives similar capacity for a 777BCF to current DC-10 types.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):
Could FX or 5X ever consider a C-17 for their missions?

The C-17 is very overweight and inefficient for what FX and 5X do. Compared to a KC-10 (couldn't readily find info for a regular DC-10), the C-17 carries slightly more weight, but fewer pallets: 170k # and 17 pallets in a C-17, vs. 165k # and 27 pallets on a KC-10 (which carries no lower deck cargo). Of course, a C-17 can beat all but a few models with outsize cargo (big vehicles, helicopters) and short field performance.


User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6303 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
A333F : not feasible.

Why is it not feasible? What is it about the A330-300 that doesn't lend itself to being built in a freighter variant?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):

No. It's the wrong plane for them. Boeing and McDonnell Douglas offered it to airlines for outsize cargo, but the price was too high.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6164 times:
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Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):
Could FX or 5X ever consider a C-17 for their missions?

Both McD and Boeing pitched it to them, but the operating costs are just too high and neither carrier specializes in the outsized cargo that a BC-17 would be effective at moving.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5370 times:
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Quoting CMB56 (Thread starter):
What Replaces The MD-11F At FDX And UPS  

Presently, neither carrier has found an aircraft that displays sufficient handling characteristics during landing. Both the 777 and A330-200F possess a great deal of longitudinal stability, and thus, are not true MD-11F replacements.

To achieve the required instability and unpredictability during the landing flare, 5X will be outfitting a full-length half-filled water tank in a DC-8 and testing the configuration both with and without an agitated humpback whale on board. Testing is expected to commence in Q3 of 2011, pending whale sourcing and training.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently onlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5134 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
they seem less interested in new planes than FX.

Except for all the 757s, A300s and 767s they bought new from the factory.


User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 17):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
A333F : not feasible.

Why is it not feasible? What is it about the A330-300 that doesn't lend itself to being built in a freighter variant?

Interesting that of the A330 and B777 only the -200 based variants are being sold as freighters. Interestingly I do not know of any 753F, either. Do the stretched twins (-300s) simply lack the power needed to carry full loads of cargo? The 763F seems to be going fine, on the other hand.

Perhaps from Airbus, the A345 would be better to compete in a larger class of freighter - assuming the trouble with stretched freight variants, the A346 would be ruled out?



Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4596 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 22):
Do the stretched twins (-300s) simply lack the power needed to carry full loads of cargo?

The payload range capabilities would just not make it worthwhile to do, even for package carriers. I've even seen rumors that the 777-200ER would really only be suitable for package carriers if it were converted, and even that might not be a given at this point.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
A333F : not feasible.

The next freighter by Airbus will be the A350F (based on the -8 or -9 or a mix of both).

But an A-330-300P2F conversion might be an option in the future. The oldest A-330s are A-333s.

Airbus already has a freighter design for the A-350-900, called the A-350-900F, with an EIS around 2018, or so. There currently is no A-350-800F design in the works.


25 lipzoan : after completion of a 20 year pax to freighter conversion program here in VCE,easy to guess FX will run the same way with a more younger model..my bet
26 Post contains images 9VSIO : The A380F of course! Oh...wait a minute....
27 SEPilot : For one thing, there aren't enough of them out there, and all of them are still busy flying passengers. Availability has a lot to do with what frames
28 VC10er : What does BCF mean?
29 Stitch : Boeing Converted Freighter - a passenger to freighter conversion performed by a licensed third-party using official Boeing conversion guidelines and
30 fxramper : Currently, FX is actively looking at 777BCF and A33F to replace MD fleet.
31 vfw614 : Given that the average aircraft size in the fleets of FedEx and UPS has grown over time, why would they be looking at similar sized aircraft when it c
32 JerseyFlyer : I thought Airbus withdrew the A380F - in which case the order was not cancelled by the airline which would have received the deposit back.
33 Aesma : It is heavier by several tonnes, while having a similar max structural payload and MTOW. So you don't gain any payload and you lose range.
34 SEPilot : They never officially withdrew it-they just said that it was on the back burner and they wouldn't even think about it until some future date-2012, I
35 FX1816 : I'm pretty sure that the A380F was pulled off the shelf because FDX and UPS cancelled the order. That is very much true except actually the 757's are
36 Post contains links and images YVRLTN : http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...ved=1t:429,r:2,s:116&tx=279&ty=-52 http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:123&
37 upsmd11 : Sounds like someone needs to do his homework! 5X doesn't, and will never, follow what FX does. They are competitors with their own separate strategie
38 Post contains images SEPilot : Absolutely. That's a big part of why I enjoy it.
39 Post contains links Revelation : No, EK converted to pax, and both UPS and FX cancelled their orders. May 10, 2006: EK converts 3x A380F to pax models Ref: http://eu.airliners.net/av
40 luckyone : You are joking right????? If so, BRILLIANT. If not...please elaborate to the aerodynamically disinclined as to why a less stable airframe is deemed m
41 Post contains images Revelation : Didn't the agitated humpback whale part give it away?
42 fxramper : FX will order the A33F (15/15); maybe before Boeing makes a fair deal on a 77BCF program.
43 Dl767captain : I would love to have the 777F be the MD11 replacement so I could see some 777s at SAN but it will be sad to see those DC-10s we get so often leave for
44 traindoc : Whatever choices are made, there is no rush for either FedEx or UPS. They can keep operating their A/C longer due to the fact that they log much fewer
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