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B747-100 Upper Deck Windows  
User currently offlineBALandorLivery From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 360 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12601 times:

I noticed that G-AWNA was delivered as a standard 747-100 with only three upper deck windows per side but a few years later it has many more and resembles a 747-200


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I also noticed that G-AWNI didn't go through this modification.

My question is how many of the -100's were converted? Was it common?

Also how and where would this be done?

Why didn't BA do this to all their 747-100's?

Did the process add more seats as well as windows?

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12478 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12585 times:

I think that the first 150 or so 747s were delivered with three windows on the upper deck; this was regardless of whether they were -100s or -200Bs; KLM's first seven -200s (including the ill-fated -BUF) were delivered with three windows. The -200s had a slightly longer upper deck, although that time (early 70s), I think most airlines still used their upper decks as lounges, which was why the three windows probably sufficed.

I think Qantas's -200Bs were the first to receive the ten windows

I'm not sure what the process entailed, but I do recall NW's old 747-100s, which were bare metal and one could quite clearly see where the panels had been replaced to put in ten (although I'm not 100% sure it was ten) instead of three windows. I think it was just a matter of replacing the window panels.


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2438 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12535 times:

I think this thread may answer your questions. It asked about BA's 747-100 upper deck windows.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/2857715/



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User currently offlinefanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12176 times:

Most airlines with aircraft (both -100 and -200 models) with three windows on the upper deck opted for the modification. However, in a strange reverse twist, TWA had Boeing plug in the extra windows on the -131 aircraft it received after 10 windows became the standard, so as to standardize the appearance of its fleet. The ill-fated N93119 had this feature, which can be seen in photos of the recovered wreckage.


The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25373 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 11735 times:

Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Did the process add more seats as well as windows?

The number of seats on the upper deck of the 741 and 742 depended on whether there was one or two emergency exits. Early 747s only had one on the right side which restricted upper deck seating to about 16. After most carriers replaced the first class lounge with saleable seats, quite a few 747s had an additional emergency exit installed on the right side which permitted about 30 seats.

Early KL 742 below. First photo as delivered with 3 windows per side and emergency exit on the right side only. Second photo after the left side exit and additional upper deck windows added.


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User currently offline330Guy From Ireland, joined Nov 2010, 453 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11432 times:

Quoting fanofjets (Reply 3):
The ill-fated N93119 had this feature, which can be seen in photos of the recovered wreckage.

Only recently I was wondering about that that, I seen all 10 window's (the plugs obivously were blown out on impact) and was certian it was a 100 with 3 windows on each side that went down, I presumed it was stock footage and not flight 800 wreckage shown in that clip but....... Then I couldnt explain how they had stock footage of another TWA 747 crash... Then soon after I gave up thinking



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User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25373 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Did the process add more seats as well as windows?

The number of seats on the upper deck of the 741 and 742 depended on whether there was one or two emergency exits. Early 747s only had one on the right side which restricted upper deck seating to about 16. After most carriers replaced the first class lounge with saleable seats, quite a few 747s had an additional emergency exit installed on the right side which permitted about 30 seats.

Too late to edit. Last sentence above should read "...quite a few 747s had an additional emergency exit installed on the left side..."


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
The -200s had a slightly longer upper deck

Really? Do you mean internally, or externally? I'd always thought the size of the upper deck wasn't touched until the SUD?

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7545 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
My question is how many of the -100's were converted? Was it common?

Also how and where would this be done?

Why didn't BA do this to all their 747-100's?

Did the process add more seats as well as windows?


BA converted all of their retained three-window-upper-deck 747s. However two aircraft, G-AWNI and 'NK were sold to TW around the time of the conversions - see below - and were not converted prior to that sale which was in March 1981.

The first twelve 741s delivered to BOAC, G-AWNA to 'NL, were fitted with a lounge bar on the upper deck at the time of delivery. This comprised two bench seats against the bulkhead, two swivel chairs each side of a wooden table on each side of the aircraft and two in-line double bench seats, one facing right the other left, down the middle of the cabin with a wooden table separating them. Whether or not this was the standard Boeing lounge bar or if it was specific to BOAC I do not know.

The conversions were carried out by Boeing in the USA (but where?). An unconverted BA 741 would operate a trans-Atlantic revenue flight (to where, JFK?) where it would be 'exchanged' for a just-converted aircraft ferried in from the Boeing plant. The first aircraft would then be ferried to Boeing for conversion.

After conversion BA operated two upper deck configurations for their 741s. They were either configured with 20 J (Club World) seats (5 rows 2-2) or 30 M (World Traveller) seats (5 rows 3-3). (I do not know whether the converted aircraft were all configured to one of these configurations or if some were given one and others the other configuration.) (Perhaps someone has a record of which aircraft was configured which way?

The lounge bar was for use by premium class (or F Class only?) passengers seated on the main deck. So the carrying capacity of the converted aircraft was higher than that of the unconverted aircraft, which, of course, was the purpose of the conversion.

The earliest photo of a converted BA 741 I have so far found on the Internet is of G-AWNL taken on 12 July 1980. There is another photo of unconverted G-AWNK taken on 3 August 1980. These are the only dated photos of any of the ten aircraft that were converted that I have found that were taken in that year. All photos of any of these ten aircraft taken in 1979 or earlier that I have seen have just three upper-deck cabin windows. All photos of the same aircraft taken in 1981 or later that I have seen have ten upper deck windows.

I therefore conclude that the conversions were almost certainly made in the 1980-81 period, perhaps all or mainly in the second half of 1980.


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

Interesting discussion, but does anyone have any data on UA's conversion of its 741s? I vaguely remember sitting on the crescent-shaped sofa of the 3-window F-class UD lounge (presumably on their 741s) on UA1 and/or UA41 (ORD-HNL) back in the early 80s, and then later the conventional F-class UD seats on the same flights toward the mid-to-late 80s.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4996 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 7):
Really? Do you mean internally, or externally? I'd always thought the size of the upper deck wasn't touched until the SUD?


It was entirely internal.

The extension of the upper deck usually held a small galley and closets.

This shows the original upper deck of the early builds. The large sofa across the back bulkhead was standard, and you see that the last window is almost at the end of the cabin.


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Photo © Royal S King



With the conversion to 10 windows, the last window of the 3, was the last window of the 10. When you look at these cabins, you can see how much further the upper deck was extended.


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Photo © Mohammad Razzazan - Iranian Spotters




Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25373 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3027 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 8):
The lounge bar was for use by premium class (or F Class only?)

F class only. Virtually all carriers eliminated the lounge when business class was introduced. When the 747 went into service and for several years thereafter there was no business class service.

[Edited 2011-02-06 13:23:06]

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