Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
RE: Boeing: We're Going To Do A New Airplane  
User currently onlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 323 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41896 times:

I know we've had a lot of threads related to the future of the 737. Flightblogger just reported that Boeing's CEO is speaking at a conference in NYC today and said "We're gonna do a new airplane that will go beyond the capability of what the [A320] NEO can do." I'm hoping this is more than the usual talk and he has some more specifics this time, but I won't hold my breath.


Developing story: Boeing CEO Jim McNerney: "We're gonna do a new airplane" (Update1)

[Edited 2011-02-10 08:46:18 by SA7700]

214 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1624 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41882 times:

Exciting times for the aviation enthusiast!  

I really am curious what Boeing is having up their sleeve. Hopefully they'll announce anything soon, but not too soon, the NEO has to sell a few more before Boeing makes their move (IMHO   ).



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41794 times:

They better haved taken a loooonnngg look at the B787 disaster before they shoot for the moon again.


What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9076 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41748 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I hope Boeing will build a very nice airplane. A top seller as the 737. But hopefully it won't take that long to actually be in service as the 787....

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6951 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41697 times:

This is the news I have been waiting and hoping for. I hope this means that Boeing is reassessing how they do things, and go back to being the Boeing that built the 707, 727, 737, and 747 in a decade and a half. The problem is that nobody can predict how long it will take, how much money it will cost, and what problems will be encountered. What it takes is the guts and determination to set out into unknown territory with the determination to see it through, no matter what the cost. From what I have read on other threads a large part of the 787 debacle came from bet hedging, and an unwillingness to accept reality. I really hope that they have gotten that out of their system.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41679 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
Exciting times for the aviation enthusiast!

I really am curious what Boeing is having up their sleeve. Hopefully they'll announce anything soon, but not too soon, the NEO has to sell a few more before Boeing makes their move (IMHO ).



   I've said the latter over and over again. Boeing was playing cat and mouse. They wait for Airbus to firm up the 320NEO and then they strike with an all new frame. All these "What will Boeing do against the NEO" was quite laughable, really. To think an a/c manufacturer the likes of Boeing would just seed a market was crazy. They had an answer all along.

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
but I won't hold my breath.



What would lead you to think otherwise? Exactly when, other than speculation on a.net, did Boeing ever say they were launching a clean sheet mid size a/c or a 737NEO for that matter? Someone took some mock-up that Boeing had of a possible NEO and ran with it. One of dozens that they have i'm sure.

The "answer" to the 320NEO (more like the answer to the 737 IMHO) has been in the works for quite a while. They don't just up and say, let's make an airplane say today when their competitor is already selling frames. They have been working on different strategies for quite some time now i'll imagine. These things just don't happen.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinesteffenbn From Denmark, joined Apr 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41581 times:

Finally... Some words from Boeing themselves 

Boeing did the best thing, who wants to buy an old design with new engines, rather than a totally new airplane where the design and the engines are new? And I'm sure that Boeing will make the new airplane somehow "compatible" with the 737NG!

This will also satisfy there greatest customers, Southwest and Ryanair! I will eat my old hat if this 7x7 will become less popular than the NEO-Airbus!

Are we going to have the "Which route will it fly" thread already?? 



A330, A319, 737,738,752,763,763ER,764ER,777-200LR
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6951 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41548 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 5):
The "answer" to the 320NEO (more like the answer to the 737 IMHO) has been in the works for quite a while. They don't just up and say, let's make an airplane say today when their competitor is already selling frames. They have been working on different strategies for quite some time now i'll imagine. These things just don't happen.

I agree. The thing is it is a monumental decision; they are betting the company (again.) Another fiasco like the 787 would finish them, and an inadequate plane would condemn them to slowly fading away, like MD. They HAVE to get this one right. I have said all along that they have a window of opportunity, because Airbus presently is totally tied up with the A350 and A380, and cannot launch a new plane. I do think they have timed this perfectly; it was good to wait for Airbus to commit to the NEO first, and then launch theirs. This should keep SW and DL happy; I think they will wait for the new plane.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineN623JB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41468 times:

I hope this is a plane thats capable of long-haul routes, but the size of a A320 or a lilttle bit larger. I hope its a plane that JetBlue can get.


Bring JetBlue To Mexico City! (TLC and/or MEX would be great)
User currently onlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41338 times:

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
I won't hold my breath
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 5):
What would lead you to think otherwise?

I just meant I would love to hear more specifics on things like if it will be all carbon fiber, its seating capacity range, and a time line for when it will enter service.. However, I was saying I don't expect him to give us details like that just yet.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41306 times:

Quoting N623JB (Reply 8):
I hope this is a plane thats capable of long-haul routes, but the size of a A320 or a lilttle bit larger. I hope its a plane that JetBlue can get.

Everyone's thoughts seems to be that the capacity will be higher than the 738 max config but still below that of the 752. For all we know, Boeing may offer two variants. We all just have to wait and see how this all unfolds.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinetsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41067 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
Another fiasco like the 787 would finish them, and an inadequate plane would condemn them to slowly fading away, like MD.

I'm afraid I have to disagree; Boeing will either fail spectactularly, or not at all. MDC was under substantial pressure from the very beginning of the commercial jet age; failure to capitalize on the roaring demand for the DC-9, lack of clean-sheet commercial designs, and the entry of Airbus into the foray were some of the main factors that eventually brought them down. Boeing, however, is not even in remotely the same situation--they have had success after success up to the 787, and I'd be willing to bet that once it enters revenue service (whenever that might be), it will be yet another success. The C-series and other similar-sized upstarts are not yet a threat (and may never be), so right now Boeing only has to guard one flank--its competition from Airbus. If Boeing ever fails (and I don't think it will anytime during my life), it will be a sudden and catastrophic failure. My bet, however, is on lessons learned and continued commercial success with their new narrow-body.

(Now, if we want to talk about Boeing's military contracts... that side has me worried. MDC used to dominate, or at least lead, the US military aircraft market. Haven't heard much from them since the Boeing merger--now it's all Lockheed, all the time)


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6854 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40900 times:

Kudos to Boeing for taking the best step forward, even though it's the riskiest.

I think the pain (hopefully) of the 787 program management, command and control of vendors and partners, plus the massive leap in technology will all have cycled out and there will be some lessons learned, if McNerney's not too dense to heed those lessons, that is.

That said, a new airframe, composite based, that can be a 737 and 757 replacement longer term, with max efficiency is the way to go.


User currently offlinesteffenbn From Denmark, joined Apr 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40665 times:

Of course they need to make it FBW, what I meant was the maintaining part, same tools, some sparparts and so on, if they could do that, it would be a huge success  I personally hope not that it will look like the 787 cockpit, it's to design'ish, like something from startrek 

I really can't see the mistake in making to aircraft common to each other? Was it a mistake to make the 717, 727 and the 737 VERY common?? Same cockpit section? I'm just sayin'

Any ways, I will be glad to see the design.

[Edited 2011-02-10 08:52:14 by SA7700]


A330, A319, 737,738,752,763,763ER,764ER,777-200LR
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40179 times:

Hey guys, here's the whole quote:

More here too:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeing-ceo-jim-mcnerney-were-g.html

"What we've seen so far is Airbus focused on their current customer base, which has shown some vulnerability to the CSeries. That doesn't mean that as they get deeper in the development they're not going to approach our customer base. I think they will. The NEO, on paper closes, the value gap that we have enjoyed on a typical cash on cash analysis, we tend to do better. And I think part of the rationale of the neo is to close that gap. Now, will that put some pressure on our margins. Yes. Maybe, but they've got to complete the development. We're gonna do a new airplane. We're not done evaluating this whole situation yet, but our current bias is to not re-engine, is to move to an all-new airplane at the end of the decade, beginning of the next decade.

"It's our judgment that our customers will wait for us, rather than move to an airplane that will obsolete itself when they do a new airplane. I understand why they're doing it, we haven't seen the need for it yet. I feel pretty comfortable we can defend our customer base both because they're not going ahead of us, they're catching up to us and because we're going to be doing a new airplane that will go beyond the capability of what the neo can do. I feel very good about our position there."



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlinetsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40547 times:

Quoting tsugambler (Reply 12):
the entry of Airbus into the foray

Sorry, I meant "fray." My bad.


User currently offlinealwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40517 times:

What about the 737-600 market?
If this new Boeing will be bigger than the 738, does that mean Boeing is leaving this market up to Embraer / A319 etc?

###"I´m always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40471 times:

Wow what a great thread to start my Thursday off! There are a lot of smart folks in Chicago and Washington and the 787 program has got to have taught them something. I, along with everyone else in the world I'm sure, have very high hopes for this project. It makes me wonder what radical new design techniques will be employed (besides the obvious). What kind of capacity will it have and will the performance come close to the 757? I know we will find everything out in due time but I wanna know now!   In all seriousness though, this is a GIANT leap for Boeing. They're committed to replacing the best selling airliner of all time, which definitely brings a lot of pressure to get it right...the first time. I'm sort of regretting not getting my Master's in Supply Chain Management now.  

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40416 times:

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 15):
Of course they need to make it FBW, what I meant was the maintaining part, same tools, some sparparts and so on, if they could do that, it would be a huge success  I personally hope not that it will look like the 787 cockpit, it's to design'ish, like something from startrek

So you expect a composite aircraft to share repair procedures and tools with the 737? Given that it will undoubtedly have more in common with the 787 than the 737, I think the former is where you should look for commonality.

It's already pretty clear where Boeing wants you to go in the future:

MRJ < 737RS < 787 < 777NG/747-8 (for now, eventually Y3)



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40330 times:

Way to go Boeing, slapping on engines to an old air frame made no sense at all IMHO. This new design will I am sure see a massive order from the likes of the big three UA, DL and AA before we take into account overseas orders.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 14):
. It will more likely resemble the 787 cockpit

I sure hope so and would it expect it to.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 704 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40237 times:

Boeing will re-engine the 737 AND launch a new aircraft for 2020

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9891 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40145 times:

This is good news. As I said from the beginning, I expect Boeing to offer the 787 in the size of the 737. That should be enough as "new design from scratch". If Boeing does along this way, the A320NEO will probably need to be redesigned completely as well and be offered as a composite material aircraft as well just as the 787 now is. The added advantage of having the exact same cockpit as the 787 gives Boeing true cross crew qualification as well in the same way Airbus has done with their A320/A330/A340 models. In any case, this is just my opinion and I'm looking forward to seeing the new 737/A320 replacement Boeing will come up with.

A388


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 40141 times:

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 15):
I really can't see the mistake in making to aircraft common to each other? Was it a mistake to make the 717, 727 and the 737 VERY common?? Same cockpit section? I'm just sayin'

It's not a mistake when you talk about same/close generation aircraft. But the current 737 cockpit has still elements dating from the 60's, and is clearly outdated. Some even argue it leads to accidents.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 18):
What about the 737-600 market?
If this new Boeing will be bigger than the 738, does that mean Boeing is leaving this market up to Embraer / A319 etc?

###"I´m always on the Run"###

The 736 is a competitor to the A318 in Airbus range, not the A319. Both the 736 and A318 are horrible sellers so A & B will certainly not replace them, in fact even the A318 neo is not currently envisioned.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 39973 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 24):
And not just the "evaluating" bit - but even the time frame - end of decade begining of next.This too they have always said. ie a decade plus away - maybe more .And why all this delay? - propulsion systems - OR.

Yes, I quoted the "next decade" without commenting. Some here were thinking end of current decade meant 2018, they will not like that new twist.

I would really like information about a new plane, but unlike FlyASAGuy2005 seems to think, I don't see the announcement as "we have a new plane ready to launch", on the contrary this looks more like "we won't do anything for at least a few years". Because you don't launch a plane 10 years ahead of planned EIS.

[Edited 2011-02-10 09:02:21]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinealwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 39897 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
The 736 is a competitor to the A318 in Airbus range, not the A319. Both the 736 and A318 are horrible sellers so A & B will certainly not replace them, in fact even the A318 neo is not currently envisioned.

Fair enough……..let me re-phrase that:

What about the 737-700 market?
If this new Boeing will be bigger than the 738, does that mean Boeing is leaving this market up to Embraer / A319 etc?

###"I´m always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
25 multimark : On the other hand, airlines may be gun-shy and not be willing to indulge in the situation that they did with the 787 vs the original A350. Then they
26 Post contains images osteogenesis : Excellent decision Boeing! Congratulations for being brave! Still I find the following words ridiculous: "they're not going ahead of us, they're catch
27 N328KF : The only thing really unsatisfactory about the 787 is the delivery date. I'm sure airlines would have been fine with signing on to the 787 project ju
28 sofianec : I don't know if it's time to celebrate. Boeing are certainly trying to slow A320NEO orders. Whether they will offer a truly new 737 replacement ot 73
29 Post contains images Stabilator : Read:
30 antidote : It'll be really interesting to see how Boeing applies the learnings from the 787 program. Not just the supply chain but whether the airframe will be m
31 Post contains images PlymSpotter : That will play right into the hands of Airbus I feel. Entry is too far away for many carriers, meaning the NEO is much more likely to gain orders and
32 Post contains images Chiad : What's to be excited about? Quote: "We're not done evaluating this whole situation yet, but our current bias is to not re-engine, is to move to an all
33 tistpaa727 : We have to keep in mind this isn't an official announcement so let's hold back a little. Instead, this is a strong indication of which way they will g
34 Post contains images Renfro747 : Exciting times indeed... Congrats to Boeing! Makes me wonder if they will be considering their patented "twin-aisle narrowbody" idea?
35 parapente : Re Reply 23 (which has not been deleted - yet!). I had better not talk about the thread headline.Perhaps I should refer to a large potental takover th
36 Post contains images Revelation : I'm not sure I'd go as far, but certainly they've been saying for many months now that a 737NEO was not making sense to them. See, they already slipp
37 CharlieNoble : I don't disagree at all that the 737NG cockpit is less advanced compared to the A320s, but after a quick review of accidents in A320s vs. 737NGs I'm
38 rj777 : I am assuming this is going to eventually be the 797?
39 Post contains links travelavnut : Well looking at the numbers the 737/A320 are incredibly close when it comes to safety; http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf (p. 21)
40 flyglobal : By all full understanding that there needs to be some glorification around the own products and some 'photoshop like' painting of the Boeing picture
41 Post contains images astuteman : And from memory, Airbus, at the launch of the NEO, predicted an all-new narrobody by c. 2025 or so...... I have to say I can see a number of reasons
42 lhrnue : Is it just me or does anybody else have the impression that Boeing panicing a little bit.
43 American 767 : It is strongly possible. The 797 will be the 737NG replacement and it can also be the 757 replacement. I can feel that more threads about what will B
44 Aesma : Please let's not debate the safety of the 737, I was just mentioning the argument as it has already been discussed here (and on tech ops). Anyway, it'
45 CharlieNoble : No, you are correct...although I guess one could say the first A320 crash would never have happened in a 737 because nobody would have tried that stu
46 Sankaps : Frankly, this quote does not quite make me jump and start congratulating Boeing like many on this thread have done. This is just a vision statement,
47 RoseFlyer : The areas where maintenance and repair really cost the airlines have little to do with fuselage and structure. It's the systems such as flight contro
48 SEPilot : The safety record of the A320 series is slightly better than the 737Classics, and slightly worse than the 737NG. But that is misleading; safety of mo
49 Sankaps : I assume you mean "cede". Not sure we can claim they "had an answer all along", it is pretty clear from the quote that they are still trying to work
50 ER757 : Pretty much my take on it too. One thing I read into it that others didn't see as definite is that they've pretty much ruled out a re-engine of the 7
51 Post contains images PSA53 : The 737 is a super workhorse aircraft of many airlines and has been a magnificent plane. But I felt that Boeing needed to move on a long time ago,clos
52 Post contains images travelavnut : I actually thought of that one after I posted. I stand corrected. For a huge chunk of today's airlines it still is! And if Y1 will something very dif
53 Aloha717200 : Two things: Firstly, just as Airbus re-did the concept for the A350 to better compete with the 787, what's to stop Airbus from going to the airlines t
54 WingedMigrator : So the formal launch (i.e. authority to offer) would be around 2016?
55 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing is not going to just cede the narrowbody market to Airbus from 2016 to Y1's EIS. I believe it was Boeing CFO James Bell who said that the compa
56 JAAlbert : We know Boeing is doing a new plane -- the question is, what's it gonna look like? Whaddil it do that the 737 can't? Jeez, will it have a roomier cabi
57 KGRB : You say this... And follow it with... Moving on with a new 727? How would that "make a dent in the marketplace?" You may find the configuration boring
58 Sankaps : Based on the quotes-to-date, this is precisely what Boeing says they need to work on next! I highly doubt they have an agreed design in place already
59 VC10DC10 : Room for more than two? IMHO, that depends on what you mean. Historically, there have been numerous manufacturers of jet airliners. Some that come to
60 davs5032 : The only way that Boeing could cover the -600 market would be to include two different fuselages in the designs for this new plane, a 3x3 and 2x3 var
61 CALPSAFltSkeds : 797? Carbon fiber and upgrades of the 787? 797-200? Same fuselage and tube length of a 738 or 739, taller stance for clearance, true transcon and Hawa
62 Post contains images Aloha717200 : Since there are many who feel that this plane will replace both the 737 and the 757, there are various concepts for what it will likely look like. Bu
63 Post contains images KELPkid : I think the market for downsized narrowbodies will be going the way of the dodo bird, with Embraer and Bombardier left to pick up the pieces, with th
64 Aloha717200 : Besides, if high speed rail starts to become a national phenomenon in the next couple decades, you'll see the need for sub-100 pax airliners become e
65 rikkus67 : I agree with EMB and BBD battling it out for the low end of the 100-seaters. I am sure the "797" will be closely associated to the 787 in technology,
66 PSA53 : Correct to all the above.Not disagreeing at all. But the DC-9(MD's) and 727's made them very popular to the flying public.I understand the business s
67 Post contains images travelavnut : Fashion statement is not something taken into account when buying airliners, I can assure you. Just look at the 380
68 tsugambler : Not to mention, a T-tail would allow the new airframe to accept open-rotor engines, should they come to pass. (I'm highly doubtful they will ever cat
69 SEPilot : There is a reason all new airliners look the same; it's the most efficient layout. Even RJ's, which used to have tail-mounted engines, are going to t
70 ckfred : You have to figure that Boeing has learned a lot about building a composite aircraft, as well as about overdoing the outsourcing of design and manufa
71 a320211 : If the new aircraft is so far out then the likes of FR could replace their 737 fleet at least once more before the end of the decade if they wanted. B
72 kanban : if one wants to be picky, there are components that date back to the 50's and the KC135 and even a few designed for the B377... However they're all m
73 abba : All the many airlines that brought the 737NG for a start. Your logic i completely flawed. Airlines don't select equipment in the same way as you sele
74 SEPilot : Based on what I see as Airbus's commitments over the next several years plus their public statements I believe that the reason Boeing is pretty sure
75 RoseFlyer : What is going to happen in a half decade that will make a new design blow a 7x7 out of the market? Technology does not magically appear and it appear
76 Post contains images steffenbn : Both A and B knows what they are doing, I don't think that if Boeing was first out and said "We build new" that it would have changes anything at Air
77 davs5032 : ...ahh yes. The never-ending game of leap frog. It's sure fun to watch! Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think Boeing will finally give i
78 scbriml : He said: The option to re-engine is clearly still on the table. It may not be their preferred solution, but it hasn't yet been discarded.
79 SEPilot : I would doubt it; I think they want commonality with all of their other products as much as possible. If they were going to make a switch I think the
80 YULWinterSkies : Yes, it will have a transatlantic capability, therefore point-to-point routes such as BDL-MRS will become reality. Or will it be pointless-to-pointle
81 motech722 : Boeing can say all it wants to about creating a 737 replacement, but in the end, only time will tell if it can be a successful competitor to the A320N
82 Post contains images BoeEngr : Since we have no idea what the 737RS will be, I think it's pretty premature to assign a percentage to it's efficiency over the A320NEO. It's just gue
83 ghost77 : A small 787 called the Boeing 797. g77
84 Post contains links kanban : While all this hashing is going on, I notice that nobody is paying attention to a 737UP (upgrade - my term) that is quietly going through flight test
85 Post contains images astuteman : For a c. 2020 - 2021 EIS, I'd guess on a c. 2013 authority to offer. I can't see Boeing leaving it any later than that About the same amount as will
86 flyingAY : Of course they're gonna do a new airplane at some point of time. And the re-engine option is still there. Careful marketing tactics, I'd say. We are
87 JoeCanuck : The only things potentially coming down the pike that could possibly make a significant difference are Open Rotors and maybe some nifty, new super st
88 Post contains images Stitch : I've been mentioning the CFM56-7E Evolution engine and new nacelle and the ~2% SFC improvement it will bring to mid-2011 737 deliveries in these thre
89 spr773 : Thats an interesting piece of news. If Boeing is really has something with a minimum time to market A320 NEO would have some competition. However if t
90 Navigator : Do you still have confidence in what Boeing management says after the 787 debacle...? I think less talk and more appropriate action in building and c
91 planemaker : Incredibly, it was actually only $1-billion for all four.
92 Post contains images steffenbn : So Where my post, if you look at the threads on this forum, you will see 3 kinds of threads - "when is AS going to merge, and with who? - "Should 'in
93 oykie : Since Boeing and Airbus keeps doing incremental improvements all the time, perhaps this is why it does not get as much attention as it should. Still
94 turbofan1960 : and Boeing isn't with the 787 & 747-8?
95 NorthstarBoy : No, Boeing needs to move now, ASAP, yesterday, before yesterday, to try and kill the A320NEO before it gains a foothold! all they need to do is look
96 flyglobal : That may work if you are the only manufacturer. But the NEO will be out there and Airbus wants to fill production slots. Either they get some calls f
97 flyglobal : Wasn't it 5% + 2% to come with the 2011 improvements as per Boeings CEO information. regards Flyglobal
98 Post contains images rheinwaldner : After 2016 Boeing can not really hope that Airbus is still busy with more than some cleanup tasks. Or do you see a AXXX product binding significant d
99 na : Finally. Its so odd, that while a new longhaul plane appears every other year, the manufacturers held on to their old narrowbodies for ages. Its a tac
100 Post contains images Garpd : I should imagine the replacement 737 will look like this. (A mini 787 in terms of aerodynamic form) This is a model equivalent to the 737-800
101 Burkhard : Thanks for the picture - this is the outcome when a 787 and an Embraer have a night in a hangar. I do not expect 6 cockpit windows.
102 parapente : All of this "timing" is about one thing - Engines.What and when. Below is the latest musings on RR/Cfm on the sublect and timings.But this is not just
103 Post contains images scbriml : I'm not quite sure how we can ever be more than 10 years from the beginning of the next decade? The single-aisle market is too big for either Airbus
104 astuteman : My understanding of Boeing's latest comments was that there was more probability of the new narrowbody having composite wings than there was of it ha
105 Post contains images frigatebird : Yes, but while the A350 (especially the -1000) and A32xNEO will keep Airbus busy till 2018 at least, Boeing's work on the 747-8 should be finished by
106 na : Nice drawing, did you do it? Really good. I only hope Boeing comes up with a bit more than just shrinking the 787. A plane built for the 2020s and 20
107 rheinwaldner : A very nice aircraft! Of course! I did not speak about Boeing. But just looking at Airbus I don't see the amount of tasks in 2016 that they manage to
108 bjorn14 : I think Boeing was not only thinking about the new A320NEO but maybe the C919 as well. At this time it's only a Chinese-bought a/c but after it enters
109 Acheron : Indeed. It makes me question the "aviation fan" status of some here when they go around wishing for the demise of a particular airliner or manufactur
110 astuteman : Are you seriously trying to suggest that Airbus have no surplus engineering bandwidth until 2018? Come on. All of the aircraft you highlight will be
111 SEPilot : A smaller company usually can do the same development job that a large company does for a lot less. Plus it is a smaller plane; and while a lot of th
112 Post contains images Garpd : Thank you, yes I did. I only ever post my own work unless otherwise labelled
113 Garpd : Neither do I to be honest, but I wanted to add something to make this obvious this is not a 787.
114 Post contains images frigatebird : I've never meant to imply such a thing. Being busy is one thing, having no resources at all to do anything else is another. Sorry if it came over tha
115 Post contains images manfredj : Anyone care to comment on the impact the 787 will have on this new 7xx Boeing is proposiing? What happens if the 787 becomes problomatic for airlines
116 kanban : I can only echo others, this is a multi supplier market and neither supplier has the capacity to dominate which is good.. Boeing for years has Airbus
117 rheinwaldner : Sorry I did not mean that the 797 would not be up to the job (but I probably failed to explain properly what I meant). I wanted to say that Airbus si
118 SEPilot : I do agree with this; however, I think it may take Airbus (assuming Boeing does not shoot themselves in the foot again) longer than you think to do a
119 kanban : Thanks for the clarification However from a competition view, (in my opinion) Boeing would like Airbus to jump in with a replacement or serious upgra
120 Stitch : I just don't see how it possibly could, anymore than I don't see how the A320neo could possibly get 100% of the market against an unchanged 737NG.
121 md80fanatic : Back again to bolster the case for a tail engined replacement for the 737. I've heard again and again the incorrect reasons to go the status quo of an
122 rj777 : Another question I have is: will it be a 717 look-a-like (2 engines) or the resurrection of the 727? (3 engines)
123 Post contains links XT6Wagon : The MD80 is lighter due to smaller fuselage diamiter, and lower performance. The MD80 would have been even lighter had it been built as a conventiona
124 SEPilot : You made most of the points I was going to, and expressed them extremely well. I would just like to add that even the RJ manufacturers have gone from
125 msp747 : I know a lot of the speculation is that the new plane would be no smaller than a current 737-800, but wouldn't doing that eliminate one of Boeing's bi
126 XT6Wagon : No, the new 737RS-800 will have lower trip costs than a 737NG-700. So WN can buy them and save money on routes with 0 extra passengers to be hauled.
127 SEPilot : I suspect that they will start with the 73G as the smallest and drop the 736 size.
128 mham001 : I have gotten in the habit skipping over the exagerated rhetoric but this one stayed on the screen. Where do you get this? If it were all that easy,
129 Post contains links rheinwaldner : I meant in the long run. Just like a rather small difference between e.g. 777NG and A340NG in an undisturbed market after some time completely would
130 Post contains links affirmative : nice post, a lot of interesting information for someone like me who's too lazy to look it up.. I'm definitely on your side on the open rotor but read
131 parapente : I believe that two of the problems with the BWB concept is that it's advantages diminish with both size and flight (cruise) length. This mitigates str
132 Post contains images affirmative : 100% with you on that..
133 rheinwaldner : IMO your assumption is not quite correct. There is a very simply answer! Problem is only the banking rate. Establishing a turn as quick as normal wou
134 Burkhard : If Boeing wants to have the all new aircraft in the air before 2020, there is not much time left for basic research of new technologies, it must be ba
135 rheinwaldner : The BWB does not need to become available for Boeing or Airbus. They are those who WILL make it available. I don't really see the limiting factor why
136 SEPilot : A cheap and quick airliner is not possible, and certainly not one that beats the A320NEO. The only thing that will is an all-out effort. As to your c
137 Post contains images affirmative : Sure, this is the obvious solution. But if a roll to 30° to do a 2km radius, 90° turn would normally take 15 seconds in airplanes of today a BWB wo
138 bikerthai : Well, for a BWB, couldn't you keep the problem of the roll rate down if you keep the size of the plane down? (say stick with a twin or three aisles co
139 JoeCanuck : A BWB has other issues besides roll forces on passengers...emergency egress and pressurizing a wide oval among them. I suspect the BWB will first mak
140 Burkhard : That we know to be the reason France cannot produce enough Champaign for Airbus to celebrate a 2020 B797. Or. Just make another iteration of the 737,
141 Post contains images rheinwaldner : In 15 seconds an airplane of today easily banks 75°. Max bank rate in alternate mode of an A320 is 25°/sec. Does this solve your issue? The resulti
142 XT6Wagon : Open rotor has been right around the corner for how many decades now? Don't forget the A340 was supposed to have them and that had a EIS nearly 20 ye
143 Aesma : Personally I like the open rotor concept, it's "new" and exciting, and it has props ! But I feel Rolls is touting it only because they're out of the A
144 sirtoby : Totally agreee! Boeing is not convinced that the OR will be an alternative even in 2025, otherwise they would not think about a 797 in the 2020 timef
145 parapente : Re XT6 Wagon. Unless I am very much mistaken the A340 was going to have GTF engines not OR . Of course there are still big questions about OR no one d
146 Post contains images rheinwaldner : Regarding Open Rotor and BWB: I don't argue about the risks. It is easily possible that they are not ready in the next 15 years. But I did say that we
147 Klaus : BWB is almost certainly not an option in the 737/A320 class, simply because there would not be enough room for a cabin at these dimensions (let alone
148 Klaus : Including for Airbus, who could trounce such an intermediate design relatively easily with a clean-sheet design which is due in a few years anyway.
149 parapente : Reply 146 " If there is a probability of only 30% that BWB and Open Rotor will be ready to fly in 15 years this simply means, that Boeings new convent
150 SEPilot : I suggest that Boeing is much more closely connected with OR developments than any of us are, and are very much aware of what the problems are and ho
151 Burkhard : Management never bets an own cent, they are betting on shareholders money and workers future income. Nevertheless, I think that if the 797 isn't OR,
152 Post contains images MadameConcorde : What B-787 disaster? The B-787 is a genius aircraft and a true beauty so elegant and stylish but that's not all. A new aircraft type such as the B-78
153 rheinwaldner : You are right. One of the "win" belongs to them. But that is exactly my argument. If this new 797 is endangered to be leapfroged by a new Airbus NB i
154 Klaus : Not "anyway" – that is the whole point. Only if they don't do it properly! The whole appeal of the 737NG was that they could carry over the old mod
155 Post contains images parapente : Putting the questions of "if's" aside The only additional point I would make is the general one of Sfc.I read yeaterday an article about "nanopaint" t
156 SEPilot : Except that most managers own substantial amounts of company stock; this is precisely why bonuses are almost always in stock or options. The company
157 davs5032 : ..but if fuel prices continue to rise (which we both seem to think it will), then the threat posed by that "little paper aircraft" is going to increa
158 zippyjet : At least get the ball rolling. The 737 is a tough act to follow. Chances are it will be based on the 787 frame and shrunken for your flying convenien
159 Sankaps : Agree in principle, but the whole rationale gets significantly compromised by the emergence of obscenely large "golden parachutes", which negates the
160 affirmative : I guess for easyjet the number is easy to calculate and the relative young age of the fleet makes the fuel figure quite uniform. But to blindly focus
161 SEPilot : Very true; however, most managers at that level are driven by more than just money. They are driven to be successful, and being driven into retiremen
162 davs5032 : That's interesting. Thanks for sharing it. Useful for those of use who have never worked in the industry!
163 Post contains links oykie : I might got my numbers wrong, but winglets, carbon fiber brakes, tech insertion program and other updates prior to these 2% should calculate for more
164 Stitch : Going the New Engine Option route is clearly the less-risky option for both OEMs. But if Boeing can secure two to three thousand "launch" orders for t
165 SEPilot : This reinforces the feeling I have had for some time, and have voiced it frequently. Boeing IS concerned about the new entrants, and does not want to
166 rheinwaldner : They seem to have quite a volatile opinion. Because until only a few days ago they still claimed that only the A320 would vulnerable (to the C-Series
167 SEPilot : What they say publicly and what they say behind closed doors are not necessarily the same thing. I pay little attention to public statements; I look
168 parapente : They seem to have quite a volatile opinion Quote Rheiwaldner. Could not agree more.What they choose to say from one day to another is of course absolu
169 Burkhard : Boeing sees one danger: Let us assume there are two or three more big A320NEO orders, so that 2017/18 delivery slots of Airbus get rare - this might c
170 flyglobal : As many of us said in the beginning of this thread: What the biggest boss said in regard to his position (the 737 position) compared to Airbus situat
171 oykie : At this stage he has to caution his wording. At the end of his comment he stressed that no decision has been made. He said he wants a new airplane, b
172 JoeCanuck : It doesn't do them the least bit of harm either. As has been said many times, Boeing and customers do not do business based on press releases. If any
173 affirmative : Since new tech engines are still about 5 years away Boeing is in no hurry to publicize their plans. Why? Because they can. And there's no reason to te
174 DocLightning : The one where it's 3.5 years late, requires a second assembly line, and has been delayed eight times now. Eight, right? I've lost count.
175 Revelation : MD90 doesn't have the payload/range of the 737, so it's not a valid comparison. I wonder why the manufacturers don't aim right at the current flight
176 Post contains links Rheinbote : Have a look at this May 2010 Boeing Product Update presentation: http://www.boeingcapital.com/einvite...010_NY_Product_Strategy_edited.pdf Page 11 sho
177 davs5032 : Wasn't the Charleston assembly line in the works from the beginning? I think it's more due to the "success" of the program (850 orders before EIS), t
178 Rheinbote : The interim goal for the Everett final assembly line was a 6 M-day factory flow (a calendar month has 20 M-days). With three positions (plus one for
179 odwyerpw : Revelation.... I've thought the same thing...... aim right at 149, 199 & 249! Let Embraer have 99. and Bombardier have 129.
180 Stitch : Some real interesting data in that on the 747 and 777. Thank you for posting the link. In regards to the 737, interesting to see how Boeing feels a 7
181 Revelation : 'Twas interesting to read that around 1400 out of around 1800 737 Classics are still in service! They show 737NG going out to 2025, but that sounds p
182 JoeCanuck : A BWB could offer a much more versatile cargo space than a winged tube. Also, the efficiencies that airlines like as fuel savings can be translated i
183 DocLightning : I think that the BWB will probably catch on as a cargo design. I think that the challenges involved in using it with passengers (excess motion, emerg
184 JoeCanuck : I don't know of any studies done that have tested the maximum comfortable distance away from the roll axis for passengers but I wouldn't be surprised
185 Post contains images affirmative : This is exactly what I had in mind, almost like a SR-71 shape exept for wing configuration. Ovoid shape cabin with wings blending into the body. If t
186 Aesma : I thought those had nothing to do with Boeing Commercial Airplanes ?
187 tdscanuck : They're built by Boeing Commercial then passed over to Boeing Defense to have the mission systems installed. Commercial will be involved for as long
188 RoseFlyer : There is a third 737 production line at a slower rate that produces the P8. It likely will be running for over 10-20 years for the US navy, Indian Na
189 nomadd22 : Been hearing few rumors on the fuselage. Most have been predicting carbon fiber because even though it doesn't scale down well weight wise because of
190 tdscanuck : Short in what regard? CFRP is still better for fatigue, corrosion, and buy-to-fly ratio. Tom.
191 Stitch : Boeing and Lamborghini have developed a new form of carbon fiber that can be pressed into shape. It does not need to be layered like current CFRP. A
192 astuteman : I'm pretty sure I've heard Boeing Management say publicly something along the lines of that, on a narrowbody, it's looking more like there's a better
193 kaybear1968 : Fairly typical of Boeing. Let Airbus make the first announcement then follow up. A380 followed by 747-8 (which noone wants) then A350XWB followed by 7
194 Post contains images Stitch : The A350XWB followed the 787. And the A380 followed the 747 and the A320 followed the 737. The 767 did follow the A300, however.
195 nomadd22 : Weight
196 dfwrevolution : Jim McNerney said in an interview with the Seattle PI that at narrowbody-sized aircraft, CFRP skin thickness stop being sized by distributed loads an
197 billreid : Disagree with you. The NEO followed by a new B means that AB is behind the new B. The NEO is already entering a very very short sales cycle. Customer
198 tdscanuck : Fuselage panels would not be a particularly good application for isotropic CFRP...the loading on skin panels is *really* anisotropic, so you're givin
199 StressedOut : This statement is true, but with 787 type composites one probably would end up with the fuselage being too heavy. This problem is one of the biggies
200 JoeCanuck : Any new material has to be a significant improvement in at least one area to be considered and cannot be worse in any way than the current aluminum. F
201 Post contains images DocLightning : I think that the trend is for CFRP. If we compare the CFRP used on the 787 to what is coming out of laboratories right now, the 787 is woefully obsole
202 SEPilot : I agree. I do not think Boeing will build another Al aircraft; not even Al-Li. If they did not think they could make CFRP work they would stick with
203 rheinwaldner : Absolutely. If product A and product B perform equally good, how does one of them need to catch up? Improving product A will never create a balance i
204 SEPilot : Hasn't the 737 outsold the A320 in the past few years? But I get your point, which is valid; the 737 and A320 are as close to equal at present as is
205 rheinwaldner : And still flawed: - Columns: advantage per trip of the 748 / seats 748 / seats A380 / advantage per seat of the 748 - Boeing PR talk: 26% / 467 / 555
206 Burkhard : There are 4 big applications of carbon possible ( besides the obvious one like tail, doors, etc) a) The structure. Making the structure out of large b
207 SEPilot : Where is this from? It makes no sense to me; the problem with CFRP on a narrowbody from what I understand is that the skins would be too thin when si
208 bikerthai : And don't forget with a composite fuselage, you get rid of all the fasteners between the stringers and skin. (I don't know if the shear ties are fast
209 SEPilot : Precisely; and I suspect that is a big part of the cost savings as well. All of those rivets are expensive to install.
210 Post contains links kanban : we used to joke about coming up with an extruded fuselage...you just cut to length, bake and then do cutouts for door, windows and wing box. The tape
211 Stitch : The 787's underlying structure is predominately CFRP. Airbus was considering an Al frame for the A350XWB, but Al and CFRP don't always play well toge
212 tdscanuck : There are public photos (and a barrel section at the Future Of Flight Museum) that show this pretty clearly...the floor panels, floor beams, stanchio
213 Post contains links and images Revelation : That was one of my xmas presents to myself. The other was the RR Jet Engine Book. http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/publications/jet_engine_book/ It h
214 Post contains links BlueBus : Some of you posted some pretty good mock ups of what the next Boeing 737 might look like, but I also found two more. One in standard Boeing livery and
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Boeing Adds Lufthansa Video To "New Airplane" Site posted Thu Dec 7 2006 07:08:45 by Thebry
What Are We Going To Do For The Big 100,000? posted Thu Aug 3 2000 18:19:16 by RWally
Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes? posted Mon Feb 22 2010 03:35:15 by fab747
What Is AS Going To Do In LAX? posted Sat May 30 2009 22:39:31 by DeltaL1011man
RE: B6 To Announce 3 New Cities From FLL Later Today posted Thu Aug 23 2007 17:41:23 by MAH4546
How Do We Find A Aircraft To Do Charters OZ/NZ? posted Wed Apr 25 2007 07:02:43 by Easyas321
When Are NWA Going To Announce New 757 Routes? posted Tue Apr 24 2007 18:06:45 by 8herveg
Is Airbus Going To Do Better This Year? posted Wed Feb 7 2007 19:26:31 by Glom
Anybody Going To FAA New Tech Workshop Or TRB Mtg? posted Sun Jan 7 2007 18:16:53 by NW748i
What Is Emirates Going To Do With 45 A380s? posted Sun Jun 18 2006 23:12:12 by FSPilot747