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BA: 747 Intercontinental. Will This Be Reqd?  
User currently offlinebonave From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26304 times:

Seems an obvious slot for the new 747/8 in the BA fleet so why no order?

[Edited 2011-02-15 04:16:29]

[Edited 2011-02-15 04:16:50]

90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26298 times:
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I think that they don't need it. Since they got the A380 on order. And the 77W will replace the 744's nicely.


Flying high and low
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26156 times:

Why Obvious, what's your thinking?

User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26170 times:
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Quoting richardw (Reply 2):
Why Obvious, what's your thinking?

I don't know what he means either. Sure not many 748i's have been ordered, so maybe he thinks that BA can order some and get them pretty fast.
but I don't think BA needs them. 380, 777 are just fine.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26135 times:

A380 is already ordered by BA, and B787 / B777 are arriving. It looks like BA is surviving with what it has so far and can manage until the A380 arrives.

Suggest perhaps a title change for the thread to relieve the heart rates of a few people.   You can bet many people clicked here thinking BA made some unexpected order. 

[Edited 2011-02-15 04:01:50]

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8269 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 26060 times:

How is it obvious? They have brand new 773ERs and existing 744's.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 25886 times:

Lufthansa has A346s, 744s and A380s. They still ordered the 748 because it fits perfectly between the A346 and the A380. So BA could in theory use it to fit between the 77W and the A380, hence the question.


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25794 times:

Brand new 77W + brand new A388 leaves no room for the 748. Quite typical scenario these days.

User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25736 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):
BA could in theory use it to fit between the 77W and the A380

Any route suggestions?


User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25608 times:

We will see it in BA livery, just maybe not Mainline. Global Supply Systems who operate the World Cargo Division are getting the cargo version, and they will be painted in the full BA livery.

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25563 times:

Yes in theory BA could add another sub type between the A380 and the B787 / B77W but given the lack of orders for the B747-8I AND the A380, I think we're seeing that a lot of the predictions about VLH aircraft weren't accurate. Unless your name is Mr Emirates and you have money coming out of your ears in which case you're special.

Let's have a hundred pages more of "in theory" routes for the aircraft that no one is ordering in bulk?


User currently offlinerobso2 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2010, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25462 times:

I think the 747-8 would fit perfectly in the fleet. The 77W's are mainly for route expansion and increased capacity and there will only be 6. The 787's will certainly will not replace the 747-400, they are intended for the ageing 763's. There are only 12 A380's on order... 13 of BA's existing 744's are 20 years or older so it would be logical for BA to consider the 747-8 especially in light of the lack of orders (and therefore Boeing might compromise on price).... That's just my thinking anyway!


733/4/5/6/7/8/9, 319/20/21, 752, 744, 772, 332/3, 343/6, E70/90, AT43, AR85/1, D38, D10, M82
User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25397 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
Let's have a hundred pages more of "in theory" routes for the aircraft that no one is ordering in bulk?

Sounds good!

I am surprised that there hasn't been more of an opening for the -8i between the 77W and A380.

Airbus and Boeing both offer a range of models (the A320s and B737s) with relatively small differences in capacity at the lower end, but at the upper end a hundred+ seat difference between the largest twins and the A380 is somehow "ok". I don't really understand that.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 25162 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 8):
Any route suggestions?

Not from me, I was just trying to explain why the question was asked.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24675 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 7):
Brand new 77W + brand new A388 leaves no room for the 748. Quite typical scenario these days.

Seems like KE thinks different...

Lets not kill the 748i before is born....


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24315 times:

Well, it seems to me BA could use the B-747-8I on routes from LHR to DFW, IAH, SFO, LAX, MEX, etc. These routes are currently served by B-777-200ERs or B-747-400s. The -8I could also be used on routes to closer US cities like BOS, JFK, IAD, and ATL, or to international cities like JNB, BOM, SIN, SYD, HKG, NRT, etc. Some of these cities could be shared with the A-388s. The B-77Es could be shifted to other cities, and the B-744s could begin retiring.

IIRC, BA has some 55 B-744s and the A-388 order is to replace only about 20 of them. The B-77W will also replace about 5 to 8 of them. That still leaves another 20 + B-747-400s to be replaced. Isn't BA also leasing some B-747-8Fs from Atlas or ILFC?

An order from BA for 20 B-747-8Is would be cool.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24203 times:

My reading of it tends to agree with BA saying on a couple of occasions that it is not considering the 8i for its LoHa fleet renewal.

I think they have settled on the A380 and are happy to abuse it on routes where it may not work ideally, than have another fleet type in the pool. I think what we're likely to see is a raft of A359s to replace the next batch of the 744s, as we're seeing with UA, and latterly the beginning of the 772A/ER replacements in due course.

Whether they go for more 77Ws or A3510s for the rest of the 744s is up in the air. A year ago I'd have said A3510 nailed on certs but now I'm not sure. Personally I think they'll get 12-15 of both and run them alongside each other.

788-A359-A3510 and/or 77W-A388

replaces

763-772A-772ER-744

I think they recognise that they have options in the mid/large scale twin category, and are large enough to make subfleets of both work.

I wouldnt even rule out a few 789s in due course as well as they already have the 788s in the mix. I can see them ordering a load more 788s eventually as well.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23542 times:

We should expect joint purchasing with IB from now on

User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23241 times:

Im not sure why everyone thinks this is so impossible. The 748 will fit in perfectly between the 772 and the A380. They only ordered a few 77W, nowhere near enough to replace all the 744s. The A380 will work well on routes like LAX or JFK that need that much capacity but the 748 is perfect for busy routes that need capacity instead of frequency but might not fill an A380. I'm sure if LH can find a spot for the 748 with the A346 and A380 then BA can also

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23000 times:

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 18):
Im not sure why everyone thinks this is so impossible. The 748 will fit in perfectly between the 772 and the A380. They only ordered a few 77W, nowhere near enough to replace all the 744s. The A380 will work well on routes like LAX or JFK that need that much capacity but the 748 is perfect for busy routes that need capacity instead of frequency but might not fill an A380. I'm sure if LH can find a spot for the 748 with the A346 and A380 then BA can also

Nevermind that they've said they are NOT considering it for tranche two of their LoHa fleet renewal - nobody is disputing that they COULD find a niche for it, but they've repeatedly said they dont want to.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2659 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 22760 times:

I think a BA 747-8i would look magnificent




arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 22437 times:

It would be great if it happened, but that's a pretty big if....

Could this aircraft maybe work on JFK routes? I know it wouldn't be a smart move to by an aircraft for one route, but it's the only logical pair I can think of. Maybe some Asia routes?

Would love to see the 748 successful, especially in BA colours  


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6910 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 22114 times:

Quoting Garpd (Reply 20):
I think a BA 747-8i would look magnificent

And that is why business managers buy $200,000,000(or thereabouts) aircraft, of course.      



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2659 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 21989 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):

And that is why business managers buy $200,000,000(or thereabouts) aircraft, of course.

I didn't say it would work for BA.

Last I checked, this was a forum populated for the most part by enthusiasts.
A forum for the exchange of information and opinion. I expressed an opinion.
If you don't like it, go bang your head off a wall all you like and stop patronising me.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 21532 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
And that is why business managers buy $200,000,000(or thereabouts) aircraft, of course.

Needlessly agressive... he was just pointing out that it does, indeed, look very pretty in BA colours and so, if BA ordered the 748, it would look good. Well anyway Garpd, I found your post interesting and relevant, thanks for the picture too! She sure would be a beaut. SEPilot... no need to be abrassive.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
25 manfredj : The world's largest operator of 744's and Boeing will let that go by the wayside? I'm not so convinced. Not when British has less than half their 744'
26 Klaus : I guess it first needs to be improved before it can be discovered. Let's hope they manage to get it attractive enough.
27 CargoLex : Having flown on many BA 744's, I'd love to see the 748 in the fleet. But the world is a different place now, and I don't think BA will replace the 744
28 Post contains images davs5032 : That's true, but think about where the fleet is trending. The 747 family jets are on the way out, while the 77W's are being ushered in. Makes me thin
29 wahdadli : A380 and B747-8i... the 2 are not the same at all... the A380 will never and can never replace the B747, its NOT meant to. There are many routes that
30 SEPilot : Hey, I did not mean to be offensive or abrasive; sorry if I was. My point is that the airline industry is brutally competitive, and sentiment has no
31 YULWinterSkies : Also, considering the very low seating density that BA uses and the changes in the industry towards reduced F and J cabins and more Y seats, they may
32 Post contains links theginge : I would suspect the 777-300ER can cover a lot of airlines needs rather than the 747-8. See Emirates take on it on the link below- http://www.flightglo
33 aloges : Well said, and I'd like to add that LH isn't exactly known for its poor fleet planning. So placing the 748 between the 77W/A346 and the A380 might ev
34 Klaus : Another thought: With the mergers going on at this time, I think neither BA nor LH can really be viewed in isolation any more, because part of the rea
35 Dl767captain : Which is what the OP is asking, it seems like an obvious choice, so why aren't they ordering it
36 Post contains images Garpd : Talking of classic. Were BA to order the 748i it would undoubtely be the last variant of the 747 they'll ever order. Wouldn't it be lovely to feature
37 BY738 : Dont the new engines have to be white ?
38 Garpd : I believe so, but I took a little artistic license.
39 BY738 : Of course you did, and great effort, I enjoyed looking at them. The white just wouldnt look right.
40 klmd11l : Why?!!
41 qfa787380 : Doesn't the existing BA 787 order contain a mix of -8s and -9s??? Just to confirm: BA have ordered 16 789s and 8 788s with RR engines(of course) and
42 qfa787380 : With Tim Clark's comments re the 350-1000 today I would say BA are almost certain to go for more 77Ws.
43 Stitch : I'd be shocked, frankly, if BA doesn't add more 77Ws. The type seems to endear itself with most operators and the more BA becomes familiar with the i
44 HBGDS : I might get some naughty responses for that, but any of you check the reactions at the time of the split order? (i.e. A-380 and 787&gt Just go bac
45 rj777 : Lufthansa have the A380 AND they've ordered the 748I. Why can't BA do the same?
46 VS11 : Because there is the philosophy widely used by Air France that the aircraft should fit the mission. Having more types allows you to best match the ai
47 Dano1977 : Because the airline business isn't about "keeping up with the Jones's" or placing an order for airplane just because one of your competitors does so.
48 cpd : it's about ordering the right plane that suits them. And in BA's book, the B747-8i obviously didn't. To be honest, they are better off with the A380
49 Stitch : Now that LH have released the seating configuration, I'm thinking the 747-8 is designed to (eventually) replace the A340-600 fleet, accounting for tr
50 rj777 : With that logic, other likely 748I operators might be: Cathay Singapore Etihad Iberia
51 Stitch : SQ's former Chairman stated he'd never buy it, but now that he's gone I guess the chances are now more than 0%, but I expect not much more. IB could
52 cpd : They've got B777-312/ER, B777-212/ER, B747-412 and A380-841, so I doubt the B747-812 is very likely. If anything, maybe more B777-312/ERs, and don't
53 Post contains images LimaNiner : Landor, please!
54 UAL747DEN : I think that there is still a chance for BA to go with the 748i. Look how long it took them to take the 773! What will really matter here and in a lot
55 Stitch : Well never say never, but because BA took so long before choosing the A380 and 777-300ER leads me to believe this was a conscious decision that those
56 Dano1977 : Or they could be playing the waiting game, waiting for the newer design to bed in, and get reliable numbers from other operators instead of Boeings n
57 Stitch : Well each operator's numbers are going to be operator specific based on the configuration and mission. So I'm not sure BA would find LH's or KE's dat
58 cerecl : This is not to diss the 747-8i which looks magnificent, however, Boeing's numbers were based on a "favourable" configuration and is unlikely to be re
59 SEPilot : Unfortunately, as I would dearly love to see the 748i to succeed, I agree with you. If it only had to meet specification it would have sold more by n
60 alwaysontherun : That makes a lot of sense! KL tends to that as well. 1 of the reasons I'm not too worried about the A380 sales, just yet. Why order now, (unless you
61 gemuser : OK, what am I missing here? I thought the B77W deal was part of Boeing's compensation package to BA for B787 delays, hence the very small numbers, fr
62 hotelmode : You arent missing anything. The 777-300s were at very little cost to BA. Assuming a further order is a big guess. The second tranche (or first for IA
63 Stitch : That's what everyone says, but I believe now that BA is flying it, they will realize what a fantastic platform it is and will want to buy more. That
64 richardw : How would the A350 suit IB long hauls such as MAD-EZE?
65 Stitch : Depends on the legs the A350-1000 has compared to the A340-600. There might also be a need for longer ETOPS certifications (beyond 180) for both the
66 AirNZ : Other than pure wishful thinking/hoping, can you perhaps enlighten me as on what basis you are 'thinking' that? The reason I ask is that BA have repe
67 Post contains images CHRISBA777ER : I does make me laugh to read the caustic comments from a number of our fellow members about a certain airline's choice of fleet planning. They have s
68 seabosdca : Funny you mention this... to tie back to the original topic, the 748 would also make much more sense at IB than BA. Conditions at both MAD and some o
69 VV701 : Never a truer word. And almost always the pundits totally ignore the possible reasons why the airline originally bought the aircraft, in this case th
70 VS11 : And this assumption is based on the assumption that "what it wants, and/or needs" is static and never changes. In an extremely competitive global ind
71 AirNZ : I disagree in the context of what I wrote. My comment was regarding no such assumption at all, but rather the explanation that BA (and many such inst
72 VS11 : Fair enough. But you do understand that not everyone constantly follows or researches the context in which certain airline announcements are made so
73 msp747 : I don't think BA will ever buy the 748i and I don't think the program will be a huge success, but is the number of seats really the right measure? Ai
74 gemuser : Don't see that as particularly compelling. The B77W is not new, its been around long enough that I'm sure BA had perfectly good knowledge of its perf
75 VV701 : BA needed these aircraft because of the delay in the 787 programme that, for example, resulted in the first deliveries which were originally planned
76 Stitch : Well I certainly don't see them ordering 57 A380-800s to replace their 747-400 fleet. And I'd be surprised if they want to downguage from ~300 seats
77 gemuser : Possibly. BUT BA did not order the B77W in its first L/H order. There is to be a second, in fact its late IIRC. Now BA MAY choose the B77W in that se
78 AirNZ : Absolutely, and no major disagreements there. However, that is one particular failing here and I would sadly say that in some respects it is many tim
79 richardw : How significant are BA frequent First flyers who prefer the B747 nose cabin and similarly the frequent CW flyers who prefer the upper deck?
80 Burkhard : While the A388 is bigger than the 748I, they both look for long range non ETOPS restricted high capacity flying, so they are nearby. Why not? Do you
81 Garpd : Do you have an indication they will? As far as I can tell BA want to keep their frequencies, it's a big selling point. They do not get 100% load fact
82 Stitch : I'm sure BA expects growth - they would not have ordered the A380 in the first place, otherwise. And I fully expect they will add more than 12. But I
83 VV701 : Currently BA's active long haul fleet comprises 109 aircraft: 50 (not 57) 744s 14 (excluding 7 short haul) 763s 42 772s 3 77Ws Currently BA have outst
84 United Airline : BA will definitely order more A 380s I think. Up to 40 maybe?
85 Slinky09 : Best not look at EK then ... Is somewhat hopeful - AFAIK BA has done and dusted its assessment of large aircraft needs and settled on the 380 and 777
86 Post contains links travelhound : Allan Joyce from QF recently suggested a 77W(X) with 787 technology would be a superb aircraft. In fact it could be part of the QF fleet from 2017 on
87 gemuser : Actually, if reports here and elsewhere are correct, BA DID NOT choose the B77W, they accepted them as part of a compo deal for late delivery of B787
88 dennys : I stll think that 12x 388s( should they receive them all) are not sufficient to replace 55 744s . BA (compared to AF) has not yet substituted most of
89 United Airline : I believe so too but I think they will order a lot more A 380s rather than B 747-8.
90 VV701 : I have. They have a business model that has been hugely successful. It has been based not on carefully selecting replacement aircraft but on out-and-
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