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LH Thinking About DUS-DEL/PVG  
User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 535 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8945 times:

Just read that LH is thinking of starting more long-haul services ex DUS.
DEL and PVG are strongly considered. LH will also be upping the amount of feeder flights in to DUS for this reason.

Quite a nice move for LH it if goes through.
Below is the link, only in dutch sorry.

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...bcsseldorf_ook_naar_China_en_India


Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8944 times:

Quoting DALCA (Thread starter):
Just read that LH is thinking of starting more long-haul services ex DUS.
DEL and PVG are strongly considered. LH will also be upping the amount of feeder flights in to DUS for this reason.

Quite a nice move for LH it if goes through.
Below is the link, only in dutch sorry.

Now we know, what the two additional 333s ordered last year are for.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8771 times:

It surprised me a bit. I'd have thought that now Germany has the EUR 45 tax on long-haul flights, and the Netherlands have abolished it last year, that LH's long-haul network from DUS would be suffering. Apparantly, LH still sees a market potential.

PVG was served by AB some 2 years ago, together with PEK, but cancelled after only 1 or 2 seasons.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1712 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Why not, DUS catchment area is large enough. LH is slowly settling at DUS again.
I still wonder what LH will do when BBI opens..... I bet they will fight AB there too....



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8200 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
It surprised me a bit. I'd have thought that now Germany has the EUR 45 tax on long-haul flights, and the Netherlands have abolished it last year, that LH's long-haul network from DUS would be suffering. Apparantly, LH still sees a market potential.

The tax will be up for review in the summer - my guess is LH is betting it will not be renewed. I personally do not think it will be.



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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

DUS has the potential and since other carriers from overseas have discovered that potential plus AB LH will not repeat the mistake BA has made in giving up their secondary cities in the home country.

This is good news for DUS, it will boost the pax figures likely over 20 million this year, if no vlcanos erupt. Thiese services are viable only with transit traffic, which has excellent connecting times at DUS and the departure tax does not apply either. There is a good chance that the departure tax, an excellent program to boost economic downturn, will be abolished.



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User currently offlineiainbhx From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

I always enjoy connecting at DUS from BHX, although a little consistency about whether we can be admitted 'clean' or not would be helpful. I'd certainly consider connecting to long-haul there as well because it's so easy.

I would have thought DUS-NRT might work or don't LH want to cannibalise their FRA traffic?



iainbhx
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7778 times:

Quoting iainbhx (Reply 6):
I would have thought DUS-NRT might work or don't LH want to cannibalise their FRA traffic?

That may be a consideration. Also, I am not sure whether LH would be allowed to fly the route under the current bilateral.



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User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7623 times:

I wonder if this development has been prompted by the arrival of EK at DUS and the ever stronger competition from carriers serving AMS ?

User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3272 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7595 times:

I thought LH was done with it's capacity as per the India-Germany bilateral? I imagine that DEL-DUS would be primarily for O&D traffic, or does LH have a large hub operation there as well enabling flights to other European cities with convenient connections?

The LH family's coverage to DEL will be phenomenal:

LH 744 to FRA
LH 346 to MUCH
LX 333 to ZRH
OS 767 to VIE

And now a potential 333 to DUS!



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7573 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 8):
I wonder if this development has been prompted by the arrival of EK at DUS and the ever stronger competition from carriers serving AMS ?
Quoting DALCE (Reply 3):
Why not, DUS catchment area is large enough. LH is slowly settling at DUS again.
I still wonder what LH will do when BBI opens..... I bet they will fight AB there too....

DEL and PVG have little to do with AB, because AB doesn't fly to these two, not from DUS or from anywhere else. AB's services from DUS to North America were the reason for LH offering USA flights ex DUS themselves.

It might have to do a lot more with EK, which serves DUS now double daily, AFAIK. DUS-DXB-PVG is 29% longer than DUS-PVG. It ill be hard for EK to compete with a direct flight. In DEL LH has the advantage of having AI with a hub there. This could cut into EK's DUS-India/Southeast Asia business. Say you want to go from DUS to MAA, you can now go DUS-DXB-MAA with EK or then DUS-DEL-MAA with LH/AI.

This shows one thing: EK opens a successful connection to a German airport - LH drastically improves their service there. The airport, the passengers, the region, they all profit.

When will the German government finally give EK more destinations in Germany so that they can start BERLIN.   


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7473 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
This shows one thing: EK opens a successful connection to a German airport - LH drastically improves their service there. The airport, the passengers, the region, they all profit.

Excuse me, but the EK double daily to DUS is already available since several years. LH would be a very slow starter of that would be the reaction on an EK service. India is a very energetic market and DUS serves a region which hosts many companies doing business there. This will be a good alternate also for Indian passengers, including the connection potentials and the quick transfer DUS offers.

Your MAA passenger also has the choice to fly via FRA to MAA.

That final line - why should the Government change a contract without any reason? Berlin passengers have access to direct flights to DXB and a large number of one-stop services and HAM is only 90 minutes away by train. There are cities in the world where it takes longer to access the local airport. .



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7394 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):

Excuse me, but the EK double daily to DUS is already available since several years. LH would be a very slow starter of that would be the reaction on an EK service.

Right, but things like these take time to evolve. DEL doesn't have that T3 for so long and AI is actually not going to be a Star Alliance member before mid 2011. It also took the US flights at DUS, that were to counter AB's flights, which started some small LH hub activity at DUS.

It might also be a pre-emptive move against oneworld, considering that DUS is AB's biggest hub. Once AB and IT become full OW members, they might - partially with BA's help - try to get a bigger market share on the Germany-India market. DEL is not IT's prime hub, but they offer some good connections from it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
Your MAA passenger also has the choice to fly via FRA to MAA.

Right, but those are both one-stop and it is good to offer an alternative.

However, look at some places in India that LH does not fly to from FRA, but that is served by AI (or subsidies) from DEL. I think there are many. Offering DUS-FRA-DEL-place is not much better than EK with DUS-DXB-DEL-place. But DUS-DEL-place is one connecting flight shorter and therefore somewhat more attractive.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
That final line - why should the Government change a contract without any reason?

They shouldn't - without reason. But there are many good reasons to allow EK a fifth (and sixth) destination in Germany. The other side wants to change the contract. You would profit from the changes. Why not change it then?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
Berlin passengers have access to direct flights to DXB and a large number of one-stop services

Yes, on AB with a monopoly?

Is a monopoly good?   

Is AB as good as EK?   

Do EK and AB use the same terminal at DXB?   

Do they harmonize their schedules?   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
HAM is only 90 minutes away by train.

My home to TXL: 40 minutes by public transport (including ten minutes walking), 16 by car (unless the Autobahn is full).

My home to SXF: 55 minutes by public transport (including ten minutes walking), 22 by car (unless the Autobahn is full).

My home to HAM: 33 minutes (including ten minutes walking) to Berlin Hauptbahnhof, 99 minutes on ICE to HH Hauptbahnhof, 25 from HH Hbf. to HAM. That's 157 minutes of transportation time, add to that waiting time at the connections of at least 10 minutes.

Why should I take the train to HAM for 100 € there and back (plus local transportation fees in Berlin and Hamburg) when I can take the S-Bahn for less than 6 € to go to BER?

Why does Berlin (and the Bund) invest billions of Euros into the new airport and then lock out the world's most important airline?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
There are cities in the world where it takes longer to access the local airport. .

There are cities that don't even have an airport. Why compare apples and oranges here?


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7366 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
But there are many good reasons to allow EK a fifth (and sixth) destination in Germany. The other side wants to change the contract. You would profit from the changes. Why not change it then?

EK may fly from BER is they want, they just have to reduce frequencies elsewhere to Germany then (e;g; drop a FRA flight), so if they are really that fond of going to Berlin and giving more Germans direct access to their network, they can decide to do so at present.

and if they'd serve Berlin according to the current rules of the bilateral contract, the benefits for Germans would still be still there (competition, daily connection from FRA), but clearly not for EK (less volume from FRA): it is however not up to Germany to sign up to bilaterals which are beneficial for foreign carriers (alone) as they don't really want to serve as many places as possible, but rather want to attract as much volume as possible and only need to add new places in Germany to increase their volume....


User currently offlinexXMHxLHx5LXx From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 51 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7191 times:

and there goes the thread...


A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A300 A388 B722 B732 B733 B734 B735 B738 B742 B744 B748 B752 B763 B772 DC-3 DC10 DHC4
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

Thorben, Lufthansa developes a secondary hub at DUS since a couple of years and they seem to be quite successful with that. The primary factor for LH is to make money with these services and as we know LH, they are very good at that and their strategy to focus not only on the two prime hubs but to develop a secondary hub which is only about 200 km from their firts hub is an excellent strategy. Look what happens to airlines that give up the provinsces and concentrate on a congested hib which all of a sudden gets hit by a political decision not to build the required third runway.

LH has made several routes ex DUS to North America viable by starting a 737 C class only service, developing into 343/333 services and now the next target is Asia. Makes only sense and additonbal European feeder flights or larger aircraft on existing services are good for the local economy as well.

As to your EK bias, someone wrote in the EK/BUF thread about that carrier, that children not always get what they want. Carriers who build their business only on 5th and 6th freedom rights can whine as much as they like, they will have to face reality that they do not alway get what they want. EK has plenty already and if thjey wish they can fly DUS-DXB double daily with 380s. What seems to be the problem?



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User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6934 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
but to develop a secondary hub which is only about 200 km from their firts hub is an excellent strategy.

The fact that the 2-hour catchment area from DUS is probably the biggest in the world (in terms of population * disposable income) certainly helps the case too...


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6803 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):

EK may fly from BER is they want, they just have to reduce frequencies elsewhere to Germany then (e;g; drop a FRA flight), so if they are really that fond of going to Berlin and giving more Germans direct access to their network, they can decide to do so at present.

Berlin is 5th in their priority list behind FRA, MUC, DUS, and HAM. EK certainly has invested some money in those routes and they seem to work. Why give them up? Why pass the disadvantage to those cities?

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
and if they'd serve Berlin according to the current rules of the bilateral contract, the benefits for Germans would still be still there (competition, daily connection from FRA), but clearly not for EK (less volume from FRA): it is however not up to Germany to sign up to bilaterals which are beneficial for foreign carriers (alone) as they don't really want to serve as many places as possible, but rather want to attract as much volume as possible and only need to add new places in Germany to increase their volume...

The German government shouldn't sign things that are beneficial for foreign carriers only, they should sign things that benefit their own country. Berlin is a rather poor city (due to its history) and any needs benefit it can get. But the government protects its stakes at FRA and MUC and its former owned carrier LH and lets the people of Berlin standing in the rain.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Thorben, Lufthansa developes a secondary hub at DUS since a couple of years and they seem to be quite successful with that. The primary factor for LH is to make money with these services and as we know LH, they are very good at that and their strategy to focus not only on the two prime hubs but to develop a secondary hub which is only about 200 km from their firts hub is an excellent strategy. Look what happens to airlines that give up the provinsces and concentrate on a congested hib which all of a sudden gets hit by a political decision not to build the required third runway

To me it is pretty clear that LH would never have started any long-haul at DUS without the competition of AB and now EK.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
LH has made several routes ex DUS to North America viable by starting a 737 C class only service, developing into 343/333 services and now the next target is Asia. Makes only sense and additonbal European feeder flights or larger aircraft on existing services are good for the local economy as well.

Yes, but again, without competition and (to a lesser extent) congestion at FRA and MUC, LH would never have done this. They'd rather fly A321s to FRA and MUC every 30 minutes instead.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
As to your EK bias, someone wrote in the EK/BUF thread about that carrier, that children not always get what they want. Carriers who build their business only on 5th and 6th freedom rights can whine as much as they like, they will have to face reality that they do not alway get what they want.

What does this have to do with children? Berlin is losing the race in competition with many other cities, due to bad governance, that is the problem here.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
As to your EK bias

I don't have an EK bias. I have a Berlin bias. This is the largest city and the capital of Germany. However, our economic power, and our airports, make us look as if we were NUE or HAJ. This city needs improvements, not stupid regulations that keeps us down.

Somebody needs to tell Mr. Ramsauer that he is a federal minister, not the transportation minister of Bavaria.

And for the EK bias: I want everything to fly here, EK, EY, AI, IT, 9W, PK, WY, IY, SV, JL, NH, BC, CA, MU, CZ, QF, KQ, VN, SQ, TG, MH, D7 and everything else that can fly.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
EK has plenty already and if thjey wish they can fly DUS-DXB double daily with 380s. What seems to be the problem?

Again, why should people of Berlin need to go to DUS, HAM, MUC, FRA, CPH, AMS, BRU, VIE, ZRH, GVA etc. before they can board an EK plane? There are airports here.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6631 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):
Berlin is 5th in their priority list behind FRA, MUC, DUS, and HAM. EK certainly has invested some money in those routes and they seem to work. Why give them up? Why pass the disadvantage to those cities?

Thorben, did I say anything like what you suggest here? Don't put your thoughts into my mouth please. this is a thread about DUS and not about BER and if you think that the whole world should fly to Posemuckel you have to convince your NIMBYs and politicians that they should keep TXL open and make the departure routes of BBI viable. YOUR problem is, that most likely BBI will be crippled before it becomes operational. Keep on dreaming.

DUS was the first intercont station for LH before incompetent politicians in NRW intervened and made DUS a "prop airport" and CGN a "jet airport". These guys had no idea about marketing, no idea of how the business would develop, they had no idea that DUS was and is the core of one of the biggest catchment areas in the world as Joost rightfully says. DUS is right smack on the top third of the blue banana which extends from the Randstad to Milan. Interesting is that the Bureau Bongers, which planned LH before it became operational in 1955, realised that already then. LH was driven to FRA as they could not grow in DUS, the rest is history.

The development of DUS, making use of the potential the region offers, was possible after the courts had drafted the necessary compromise on movement numbers, giving DUS additional capacity whoich they had before in theory only. Still not all the possible capacity of the 2 runways is used, that may be something for the futre, but the tenantds can live with what is available in slot capacity and with the number of regional jets and the obvioius move from 50 seaters to at least 70 seaters and larger, there is ample room for growth.

LH is making use of exactly that situation. They extend the services they offer to and from a large and viable catchment area with a huge manufacturing and services base. Competition is good for the business but their main competitior is AB with their extensive European network centred on DUS.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1712 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6397 times:

So let's throw some extra feeder flights in the box, and LH has another semi-hub to please their customers.
The way they are managing an airline is really stunning!
FRA,MUC,ZRH,VIE, DUS......what will be the next one? BRU??



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Thorben, did I say anything like what you suggest here? Don't put your thoughts into my mouth please.

I didn't. I was answering a post of Slz396.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
this is a thread about DUS and not about BER

OK. But the development at DUS shows what could be done at BER.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
that the whole world should fly to Posemuckel you have to convince your NIMBYs and politicians that they should keep TXL open and make the departure routes of BBI viable.

Not to Posemuckel, but to Berlin.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
YOUR problem is, that most likely BBI will be crippled before it becomes operational. Keep on dreaming.

Crippled? By what?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):

DUS was the first intercont station for LH before incompetent politicians in NRW intervened and made DUS a "prop airport" and CGN a "jet airport". These guys had no idea about marketing, no idea of how the business would develop, they had no idea that DUS was and is the core of one of the biggest catchment areas in the world as Joost rightfully says. DUS is right smack on the top third of the blue banana which extends from the Randstad to Milan. Interesting is that the Bureau Bongers, which planned LH before it became operational in 1955, realised that already then. LH was driven to FRA as they could not grow in DUS, the rest is history.

Too much history for me.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):

LH is making use of exactly that situation. They extend the services they offer to and from a large and viable catchment area with a huge manufacturing and services base. Competition is good for the business but their main competitior is AB with their extensive European network centred on DUS.

LH has not been paying much attention to DUS for a very long time. It was mainly the hub for charter carriers, especially LTU, which has a different business than LH. Other carriers didn't do much and LH was mainly flying pax to/from FRA, later MUC as well for international travel, and offered some inner-German destinations. They were happy with it. Two things changed that over the course of the years.

Emirates started flying to DUS in 2001. Back then, they weren't as "scary" to LH as they are today. They only had seven A380s (including two F) on order back then. They went to double daily in 2006.

LTU was taken over by AB in 2007. Since then, AB has established DUS as a hub for scheduled traffic, not only for charter. With their announced entry into oneworld, AB finally woke up LH.

LH's first counter move was to offer flights to JFK, MIA, ORD, and YYZ from DUS.

Their second move was to call in Air China (sarcastically I would speak of "LH China") to fly PEK-DUS (starts in March 2011). This is to counter AB's codeshare with HU on TXL-PEK.

Their third move is now to offer two new destinations, probably DEL and PVG. What they'll do I wrote above.

Without AB and EK, DUS would still be a "charter and fly to hubs" airport. If I was living there, I'd be dancing in the streets to celebrate all the new WBs coming in and all the new non-stop flights. (So, I'll not switch to Berlin, now).


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4030 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6218 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):
This is the largest city and the capital of Germany. However, our economic power...make us look as if we were NUE or HAJ.

So what? Brasilia is the Brazilian capital, Canberra is the Australian capital, Ottawa is the Canadian capital. You have given the answer yourself: It is the economic power that matters. Berlin has a much smaller catchment area than DUS, FRA and MUC. It does not really matter how big the city where the airport is located is, but it is the catchment area that matters. In BER, it is comparatively small - and add to that the poor economic power (no industry, very few blue chip companies etc.) and there is every reason why long-hauls go to MUC, FRA and DUS - or even HAM and STR rather than to BER.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6179 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):

Not to Posemuckel, but to Berlin

which is the same, and so much for that.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
Too much history for me.

There has to be an advantage of having started in business in 1967, an amazing development of this industry has talken place in that time.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
LH has not been paying much attention to DUS for a very long time. It was mainly the hub for charter carriers, especially LTU, which has a different business than LH.

I mentioned the reason, there was no slot capacity due to a pending law suit, they had only one runway, a second was build but could not be used until the legalprocedutres ended. The compromise the airport is working on has made the development possible. Not what you imagine. During this time, "charter carriers" have changed their business model as well, selling single seats. DUS was always , until MUC Franz-Josef Strauß- opened, the second airport behind FRA in terms of pax. MUC passed them and likely, should BBI become operational and retain their low cost carriers, DUS might drop to #4. However the way things are going with DUS, they pass 210 million this year.

Your assumption about DUS is plain rubbish, the airport has always been a viable business airport with a lot of business traffic.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
Their second move was to call in Air China (sarcastically I would speak of "LH China") to fly PEK-DUS

Thanks for the good laugh on that one. LH call in Air China and they salute: Yessirmassabwana Lufthansa, we fly to DUS yessir. LOL.

BTW AB flew both routes for a short period of time a couple of years ago and they could not do it.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6045 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 21):
So what? Brasilia is the Brazilian capital, Canberra is the Australian capital, Ottawa is the Canadian capital.

Brasilia and Canberra are "planned capitals", Ottawa became the capital in 1877. Their may be the seats of their governments, but they are small cities.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 21):
ou have given the answer yourself: It is the economic power that matters. Berlin has a much smaller catchment area than DUS, FRA and MUC. It does not really matter how big the city where the airport is located is, but it is the catchment area that matters. In BER, it is comparatively small - and add to that the poor economic power (no industry, very few blue chip companies etc.) and there is every reason why long-hauls go to MUC, FRA and DUS - or even HAM and STR rather than to BER.

BER is before STR. Apart from that you're right. And now a company wants to fly long-haul to Berlin, and the government just says "NO". That's silly. They should go to the UAE and say: "EK can fly to Berlin, but only if EY does, too." They should improve the situation of the city, not make it worse.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
There has to be an advantage of having started in business in 1967, an amazing development of this industry has talken place in that time.

  

But don't get to comfy in the past. Things are changing now.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
During this time, "charter carriers" have changed their business model as well, selling single seats. DUS was always , until MUC Franz-Josef Strauß- opened, the second airport behind FRA in terms of pax. MUC passed them and likely, should BBI become operational and retain their low cost carriers, DUS might drop to #4. However the way things are going with DUS, they pass 210 million this year.

DUS went from 14,42 million pax in 1996 to 18,89 million in 2010. Compare that to Berlin.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Your assumption about DUS is plain rubbish, the airport has always been a viable business airport with a lot of business traffic.

But there still was little LH long-haul.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Thanks for the good laugh on that one. LH call in Air China and they salute: Yessirmassabwana Lufthansa, we fly to DUS yessir. LOL.

Close to that. LH is the chief monkey of Star Alliance. They own half the other carriers (BD, LX, OS, SN, EN, LO, SK) and have code-shares, subsidies (XQ, JI), maintenance cooperations (Ameco) and who knows what else with the other members. Every route between Germany and China will be discussed between them and Air China. LH probably wanted CA to fly DUS-PEK, because they have a cheaper cost base. CA offers so many connections at PEK, LH a few at DUS. It'll work.

Link for you:
http://www.staralliance.com/de/legal/impressum-legal/

Star Alliance Services GmbH
Frankfurt Airport Centre, Main Lobby
60546 Frankfurt/Main



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
BTW AB flew both routes for a short period of time a couple of years ago and they could not do it.

Right. But the HU route TXL-PEK seems to work. HU has a hub at PEK, AB has a hub at TXL. Maybe it didn't work out back then, because AB had no conncetions in China. Now it works.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):

Not to Posemuckel, but to Berlin

which is the same, and so much for that.

This is where I laugh.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
But don't get to comfy in the past. Things are changing now.

no kidding? I'm keeping pace quite well

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
But there still was little LH long-haul.

wrong, there always has been LH long haul at DUS, to JFK/EWR and to NRT/OSA in a joint venture with JAL. I said that FRA was chosen as the long haul hub due to the circumstances. i mentiuoned. It is good to see that LH now makes use of the potential the catchment area provides as well as the available slots they can sell. The slot productivity in terms of passengers per flight and traffic units per flight will increase.

Interesting also that DUS, which is not a dedicated cargo hub like FRA/LEJ/CGN or HHN shows a healthy amount of cargo actually flown. Add MUC to the ones mentioned above and DUS comes in straight behind. LH might still need to truck some pallets with TD-Pro shipments to fill the capacity of a l/d flight form DUS but the region should be able to fill these flights with origin cargo, adding to the overall profitability of the flights.

BTW some conciliation to you, EK is a major factor in cargo at DUS and they get a red carpet treatment there. Unfortunately, cargo is almost non existant in Posemuckel, sorry to say that.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 Globeex : Because the German government is sooo supportive towards LH!...... I think it's hardly possible to be even more counter productive concering the nati
26 stylo777 : probably slot restrictions at NRT
27 dalca : Let's not forget that LH now flies the A380 ex FRA so there are already a lot of seats out of the area to NRT on LH. Count with that the daily MUC-NR
28 DALCE : and add LX from ZRH with daily 343 service, totalling more than 800 seats daily ex LH to NRT.
29 dalca : We also forgot VIE-NRT, add another 300 seats. I wonder if LH might 1 day also try DUS-HKG or DUS-ICN.
30 Thorben : Come on, 3 destinations (4, if you count EWR and JFK as two places), not even all on their own metal. That is little long-haul. EK certainly is a big
31 Globeex : LH and CA don't revenue share, so that doesn't have any relevance. The metroploitan area of Nurmberg by EUREK standard which is based on an economical
32 miaintl : Does DUS even have the infastructure to handle more LH long-haul flights? From what i know they only have 3 wide-body gates at their Star alliance con
33 xiaotung : But they certainly talk a lot. Just a few weeks ago LH CEO was in China and he said he wanted more cooperation with CA in an interview. And it only m
34 Post contains links Thorben : But it is easier for CA to compete with HU than for LH themselves. By those standards Berlin has 6 million inhabitants and 140 billion € GDP. http:
35 Globeex : I agree with you here. But I don't really see a big issue with Berlin's connection to the rest of the world. I don't think a company with a HQ in BKK
36 PanHAM : yes, they do. The new flights are likely at different times than the north atlantic departures. DUS is also the prime A380 diversion airport for LH.
37 Post contains images Andie007 : Exactly, in the morning LH will have capacity problems in handling more LH operations from Terminal A - but after the US rush hour the gates are perfe
38 brons2 : I would like to see more *A traffic out of DUS to the US, right now it's pretty limited. DUS is a much more convenient entry point into Germany for my
39 Post contains links Thorben : Thanks for the post. I think you underestimate the effect of direct flights for business and tourists. For many business people and managers, time is
40 Post contains images PanHAM : Nice routing, YVR-DXB-TXL And DE is such a good airline for businessmen. Anyhow, God created hubs because their ain't enough traffic point -to-point o
41 Post contains images Thorben : I'd fly TXL-DXB-HAM on EK, if money didn't play a role and if EK served Berlin. Not every businessman is a millionaire. DE cost 430 €, LH (for the
42 Andie007 : No, CO stopped their services to DUS some years ago (after a history of DC10, B762)
43 PanHAM : Thorben, I agree with you on NIMBYs and don't share your optimism concerning Concorde. Indeed did Berliners love the sound of freedom in the form of B
44 fraT : You are talking about direct (nonstop ?) flights and then you come up with the above example. But where is the advantage to fly EK rather than LH fro
45 Thorben : DUS profits a lot from the fact that AB took over LTU and made DUS their largest hub and from the fact that EK started serving it. Without that they
46 PanHAM : you are still dreaming. No other city in Germany has the catchment area DUS has. FRA happens to be at the geographic AND the demographic centre of no
47 Post contains images tolmachevo : That made my day...
48 flyingalex : It nearly knocked me out of mine as well. I would have thought that someone who so vociferously argues for Emirates would have at least flown the car
49 Glareskin : AT this point I would say changes are slim that United will start up DUS again as their most important east-coast and midwest hubs are covered by LH
50 Globeex : Yes, but again: With EK we are not talking of direct flight. We are just relocating the stop from FRA, MUC, AMS etc. to DXB There is nothing like a t
51 Post contains links and images Thorben : First of all, I know that Berlin is never going to be what Paris, London, Athens, or Lisbon are in their countries. Second, I am not saying that Berl
52 Post contains links and images Thorben : Don't tell me, I'm tall and heavy, I wasn't comfy in the 3-3-3 T7 and wondered how another seat would fit in there. Yes, they can't phase out their o
53 Post contains links Globeex : You realise that this article is 6 years old, and that the general percetion of EK has changed greatly since then! Not that I think Skytrax is that,
54 flyingalex : Again, it's an EU rule. And it's a rule that is the same elsewhere - if I land in the US on an international flight, I will be rescreened before a co
55 Thorben : Yes, if you're going Berlin-Singapore, than you have one stop on TXL-FRA-SIN and one on TXL-DXB-SIN. But it is nice to have an alternative. If you're
56 flyingalex : There are many things which Berlin needs a lot more than longhaul flights. Better schools, a more effective police force, and a more competent local
57 Thorben : Yes, but it was actually me who wrote it. It does. Germany is not as single-centered as other countries, but as the biggest city and the capital it s
58 Post contains links Thorben : Yes, but EK flights would be a start. We're talking about aviation here, not about schools, the police etc. No sir, you're really wrong on this one.
59 flyingalex : Hmm, then I misunderstood the terms of the agreement. But in any case, EK could serve Berlin tomorrow if it wanted to - the question is which of the
60 miaintl : Is there a chance that LH would make MIA-DUS a year round service instead of just a winter service?
61 PanHAM : Don't you have the Diercke school atlas? A city between Frankfurt and Cologne, happens to have an ICE stop sand happens for me to be equal distance ,
62 Cricket : DEL has a lot of LH metal then, LH wants to bring in a A380 to FRA to replace the 744 and MUC is already a 346. I've flown on both services and a lot
63 Post contains images Thorben : They could serve Berlin if they quit another city. But why do that? The routes are working and EK has invested a lot of money into that and employs p
64 PanHAM : Close but not my place. I live in the Rhein-Main area, I have FRA and Wiesbaden in my doorstep and it takes me less than 20 mins to drive to FRA and
65 Thorben : Good for you. I live in Berlin. It takes me less than 20 minutes to drive to THF or TXL and park my car there. SXF takes a little longer. Nice. With
66 Post contains links Glareskin : ????? It is clearly a province in The Netherlands.Limburg
67 PanHAM : scusi, I said HAM-THF-NUE. But in the days of the iron curtain HAJ-THF was the most dense route in Germany. and a city in Germany. which can be attri
68 Post contains images Thorben : Right, sorry, confused THF and TXL. Most dense route in Germany? From province to province? Sure it wasn't center-capital, such as CGN-FRA? A 747 eve
69 LHPII : one thing to be clear......nobody prevents EK from operating BER, they can start their operations anytime there, but then they would have to cease on
70 PanHAM : I looked at your profile, sorry you are too young to know and obviously they either did not have history lessons at your school or were taught the wr
71 Thorben : Not one of their double daily, they would have to cut the whole city. Right, it doesn't benefit German carriers at all. -not even LH flying to DXB -n
72 flyingalex : Yes, that's what he was saying. "They would have to cease one of their double-daily operations", meaning they would have to cut one of the cities whe
73 Post contains images PanHAM : that's exactly what I said you still did not understand why THF-HAJ was such heavily travelled. People continued by train, they just had to hop over
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