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Criticism Of NZ's New And Denser Y Class  
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1494 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 23394 times:

Regular readers of this Forum will be aware that Air New Zealand is moving towards a 10-across 3-4-3 layout for its B777s. The new configuration has already been installed on NZ's new fleet of B77Ws which will enter the long route between AKL and LHR via LAX effective April 1.

But this detailed report and pics from Australia was apparently written when the B77W was demonstrated to the press and other guests when on the ground in Wellington.

Judging by the lack of space one wonders whether NZ has made a mistake with this new seating. Not only is it really dense with probably less legroom that offered by EK (another 10-across B777 airline) but the aisles are also narrow.

NZ passengers booked on a 77W will have to endure these cramped conditions on some of the world's longest flight sectors.

According to the article, "The aisles are so tight that it will be nearly impossible to wheel a carry-on bag to the back of the plane. Passengers should be prepared to be bumped all the way to their destination."

And apparently the under seat IFE boxes are "enormous" and "sharp-edged." These boxes are "stuck to the floor where your ankles go, jutting out into your space."

I realise it's a question of economics, but wouldn't it be more sensible if long-range carriers like NZ remained with 9-across on their B777s ?

http://www.ausbt.com.au/air-new-zeal...ouch-cuddle-class-on-the-777-300er

205 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlgoz66 From UK - England, joined Oct 2010, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23353 times:

Ouch! I certainly wouldn't relish the idea of sitting either on the aisle or in the middle seat.
Maybe they will be able to make it pay - time will tell. However, as you say for a long-haul carrier (and you don't get much longer-haul than New Zealand), it seems an odd decision/gamble.


User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23259 times:

Typical reporting style.

I doubt the experience is as bad as they make it out to be in all honesty, in fact the cabin looks amazing!



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlinejetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23205 times:

Any 3x4x3 on a 777 is an automatic AVOID AT ALL COSTS in my opinion..

A shame because Air New Zealand did have an excellent Y product with 34" pitch.



Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently onlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1228 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 23021 times:

Why don't all carriers put the IFE boxes under the floor like AC did? That would help a great deal. As for the 3-4-3 debate I don't mind it if the trade off is extra pitch (like EK) but NZ seem to have kept a 32" pitch which indeed makes it rather tight. The 77W looks great in the other classes though.


Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5475 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 22945 times:

If you are an airline, how do you get pax who are merely looking at numbers in an aggregator, and have no information whatsoever about cabin layout, seat width, or pitch, to pay 11% more for a ticket?

You don't.

That is why operators are switching to 3-4-3 in the 777 (and 3-3-3 in the 787) and why those configurations will be standard for all but "premium" airlines like SQ, BA, and CX in the future.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 22945 times:

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 4):
As for the 3-4-3 debate I don't mind it if the trade off is extra pitch (like EK)

EK has no extra pitch. All newly delivered / reconfigured planes offer 32".


User currently offlinebiztravelr From Australia, joined Sep 2010, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22435 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):

Typical reporting style.

I doubt the experience is as bad as they make it out to be in all honesty, in fact the cabin looks amazing!

What part of this reporting looks biased to you? We clearly state that there are improvements in the AirNZ cabin, but not everything is rosy.

Or would you prefer the "reporting style" where everything is just taken on the face value of what the airline says...?

[Edited 2011-02-18 14:28:52]

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9649 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22319 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):

Judging by the lack of space one wonders whether NZ has made a mistake with this new seating. Not only is it really dense with probably less legroom that offered by EK (another 10-across B777 airline) but the aisles are also narrow.

Seat pitch is not that bad. 33'' is a touch above industry standard and slightly better than on the 200s. EK planes range from 31'' to 34'' pitch. All aircraft are low on legroom in regular economy, so I personally think that is just the writer maintaining a negative attitude than a real comparison of different economy seat pitches.

I personally don't like 10 abreast seating on a full 777 flight. I barely notice a difference if the seat next to me is not occupied, but when sharing an armrest, I don't like it on long haul flights. On a short flight it is ok, since it is about standard for width for 737s/757s etc.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22258 times:

Quoting biztravelr (Reply 7):
What part of this reporting looks biased to you? We clearly state that there are improvements in the AirNZ cabin, but not everything is rosy.

Or would you prefer the "reporting style" where everything is just taken on the face value of what the airline says...?

I meant this....

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
I personally think that is just the writer maintaining a negative attitude than a real comparison of different economy seat pitches.

Never mind eh....



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22227 times:

I think it is probably a very good business decision.

I will still fly them and I am booked on the 77W in Y in just a few weeks on the LAX-AKL portion of my homeward journey from CDG (CDG-LAX is on AF in a 777 also - so I'll be able to compare).

I think it will boost profits and will make it possible to offer cheaper longhaul fares, and certainly fitting more Y seats in the 77E should improve profitability on NZ's China and Japan routes. If they want to compete for Y passengers with the likes of Emirates and AirAsiaX on New Zealand - Europe/Asia routes, they have to offer affordability. I don't think many Y seats are sold on the basis that they are more comfortable than the other airline's ones. It's regular business travellers that can afford to be so discerning, and they mostly occupy the premium classes.

Only the very most informed travellers (and a.netters) will say things like 3-4-3 in a 777 is 'avoid at all costs', because most people can't afford all costs, and most people couldn't tell you what model of plane they flew in. I don't think this will hurt NZ in any significant way. I suspect that many airlines will change to 3-4-3 in 777s, or will just sneakily introduce higher density seating in new-model planes, especially the 787 and A350 when they EIS.



Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlinepurplebox From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22207 times:

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
Any 3x4x3 on a 777 is an automatic AVOID AT ALL COSTS in my opinion..

A shame because Air New Zealand did have an excellent Y product with 34" pitch.

Yes - regular travelers will be appalled - SQ here I come!

The thought of NZ1/2 via LAX with horrible seats is very dark - and NZ38/39 via HKG will be the same once they retro fit the B772's.

Purplebox.

[Edited 2011-02-18 14:54:36]

[Edited 2011-02-18 14:55:10]


Next Flights:STH-ATH-STN (A3), BHX-INV-BHX(BE), LCY-FRA-BOG(LH), EZE-FRA-LHR(LH)
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22104 times:

32" pitch and 10 abreast? I am looking at heading in that direction in the next year and think I will avoid ANZ. Too bad, I flew to RAR for Xmas and their 767 product was amazing.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22102 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
I realise it's a question of economics, but wouldn't it be more sensible if long-range carriers like NZ remained with 9-across on their B777s ?
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
Any 3x4x3 on a 777 is an automatic AVOID AT ALL COSTS in my opinion..

Personally, I agree 100%. I refuse to fly on a 10-abreast 777. But 99% of passengers only care about the fare and have no idea about seating configurations. Otherwise EK wouldn't be so successful as their 777s have been 10-abreast since they went into service years ago. However, the vast majority of 777 operators are still 9-abreast, including all 6 operators based in North America (AC/AA/AM/CO/DL/UA).

AF has lost me as a customer on many routes with their switch from 9- to 10-abreast on 772s and 773s. Economy class travel is unpleasant enough without have to fly on a 10-abreast 777 when there are so many more pleasant alternatives.


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21651 times:

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
Any 3x4x3 on a 777 is an automatic AVOID AT ALL COSTS in my opinion..

bingo. coupled with a trip two years back across the ditch (320s) I couldn't earn SQ points as I bought sale fare..... very very tight and their decision on the seating config in their 77W doesn't do anything to dispel that impression IMO.


User currently onlinebananaboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1581 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21570 times:

I thought that the report was pretty balanced. Air New Zealand has done a great PR job with the new product, but this article actually cuts through all of that an examines what it will really be like in use. Whilst there are many positive improvements, particularly in the economy and premium economy classes, I think it will be down to individuals and their own priorities as to whether it will improve their overall travel experience. For me, I'm not so sure now that I'd choose to travel anywhere long haul in their economy cabin, but would try their premium economy for sure. The improvements in Business Premier seem minimal, but would definitely fly with them again "up front" and would be keen to see if the changes are really that noticeable on top of what was already a very good product.

Mark



All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21416 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

When I fly long haul I prefer Y+ due to the extra space and service but with NZs new Y+ product its going to be interesting. The best row in Y+ is the front row as you get more space and more space to exit if your in the window seat. The other Y+ window row seats have redeuced leg room and for a short person like me I actually found it slightly uncomfortable. To exit to the aisle you will basically have to practise your jumping skills before boarding as you'll be bumping into your neighbour if walking. The new style IFE set up is AMAZING and you can order food and drink from your IFE - even at 3am high above the Pacific Ocean

User currently offlineLanPeru From Peru, joined Jun 2001, 645 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21360 times:

I love how people get all bothered when they hear of a 3-4-3 configuration!

I think it's us airline geeks that freak out when we hear "specs" - most people don't care OR just wanna get there!

I understand that during a long-haul flight, rules do change...

- If I have to use the restroom (or just want to move around) and I am seated by the window...then that was MY decision and I have no choice but to ask to get to the aisle. Ok, so it's two seats...so? If my bladder is more active than not, I choose the aisle.

-AVOD at all seats, I mean come on, this isn't a cruise ship...besides that ritual walk-around, the lav and galley snack run, what else CAN I do on that plane? Might as well watch a movie (or 2 or 3) listen to some music, play some games sleep?...take advantage of it.

-You can order drinks and snacks from your seat! You don't even have to get up! And for those worried about DVT, well, how about just sticking to water, dressing comfortably and eating less - just for one day!

-At the end of this "horrible" flight, you will be at your DESTINATION, that's all I am on that plane for..is for transport.

That's just my P.O.V - if I don't have the money for F or J, I fly Y and I just deal with it!

I usually fly LAN to Lima from LAX, I only fly non-stop and the 767s because I am spoiled...money sense though, says that I should be flying the alternatives even it involves a stop!

Air New Zealand is going with the times. People are CHEAP.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21185 times:

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 17):
I love how people get all bothered when they hear of a 3-4-3 configuration!

Doesn't bother me on the 747 where 3-4-3 is fine. However the 777 cabin is about 7 inches narrower. Doesn't sound like much but it makes a noticeable difference on the 777 with narrower aisles and a smaller gap between the seats, and narrower armrests.


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 20999 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Doesn't bother me on the 747 where 3-4-3 is fine. However the 777 cabin is about 7 inches narrower. Doesn't sound like much but it makes a noticeable difference on the 777 with narrower aisles and a smaller gap between the seats, and narrower armrests.

Yes, these are points which are often overlooked. When you have 3-4-3 on the B777 there will be an extra person per row which, in turn, could mean less spare room in the overhead bin. And, of course, the aisle is narrower so less room to move around and more chance of being bumped by the trolley/fellow passengers when occupying as aisle seat.

3-4-3 might be acceptable on shorter flights, say 6 or 7 hours, but NZ is operating on some very long sectors, eg across the Pacific to California. If and when NZ's other B777s move to 10-across then passengers will have to make do with this seating on NZ's AKL-HKG-LHR route too.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6811 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 20876 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
"The aisles are so tight that it will be nearly impossible to wheel a carry-on bag to the back of the plane.

Oh, what a poor argument. One can carry that bag on the short way to the seat - but probably that's already too much for some people. What comes next - a complaint that the terminal connecting train doesn't stop directly in front of the jetway? Or that taxis cannot drive into the arrival hall?  


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 20872 times:

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
34" pitch

only on the B744 though!

I flew on EK in the 10 abreast configured B777 and found the window seat extremely cramped. I was booked on NZ's new B773 for next month, but because I avoid changing (to LH) at LAX I rebooked through SFO. So I am back on the B772.
A colleague of mine just got back from LAX a few days after the first B773 flights, and she said it was amazing. She loved it, and thought it was better than the B772. Mind you, she is not the tallest, but she flies enough to notice the difference.

Bottom line is: I'll wait to try it before I shout "never 10 abreast on a B777"!

Cheers
micha


User currently offlinelinglesou From Australia, joined Apr 2009, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 20405 times:

Does the skycouch zone cost more than the regular zone, with the couple of added amenities?


YOU SHALL BUILD A TURTLE FENCE
User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 20347 times:

Quoting linglesou (Reply 22):
Does the skycouch zone cost more than the regular zone, with the couple of added amenities?

The SkyCouch price is based on purchasing the extra seat(s) at roughly half-price. So for two people to have a skycouch, they are paying ~2.5 fares, or for one person to have the skycouch they are paying ~2 fares.

IIRC, there is no extra charge other than that, and the service is the same as ordinary Y.

[Edited 2011-02-18 18:12:46]


Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 20013 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 23):
The SkyCouch price is based on purchasing the extra seat(s) at roughly half-price. So for two people to have a skycouch, they are paying ~2.5 fares, or for one person to have the skycouch they are paying ~2 fares.

IIRC, there is no extra charge other than that, and the service is the same as ordinary Y.

hmm... the money is probably better off spent on premium economy...


25 gasman : A very balanced article I thought; it articulated clearly all the things I suspected would be an issue when this product was announced. The New Zealan
26 ZKSUJ : I've heard two sides of the story, some say the 3-4-3 is not that bad, others will not fly the airline because of it. It just seems from a very simple
27 Post contains images yodobashi : Erm, amazingly 'plasticy' and cramped ....
28 MileHighOffice : How do the seatbelts work in the SkyCouches when they are deployed?
29 Post contains images joelyboy911 : Really depends how badly you desire horizontality (if that's even a word ) Some elements of the product are definitely upgraded. In-seat power for iT
30 SchorschNG : I think many people use seatguru and similar websites. However, SeatGuru usually gives a relative rating. The absolute comfort is up to the reader, b
31 goldorak : AF is also 10-abreast in Y in all 777 (772 & 77W), in case you didn't know this.
32 pylon101 : I have worked out a algorythm of flying on long routes. The longest route for me is DME-BKK. Within last couple of years I used to make overnight stop
33 Post contains links TGV : As mentioned above in the thread AF is also 3-4-3 on all its 777, as well as KLM, and some others. For a more or less updated list, just go to the en
34 Icarus75 : Try it once like I did on AF B777 between LAX & CDG and I'm really sure you'll change your mind!
35 joelyboy911 : Yes, I know, I'm looking forward to seeing if NZ's 3-4-3 is any more comfortable than AF's.
36 planesmith : Absolutely - having had to endure EK for 13-hours I can vouch for that - NEVER, EVER AGAIN - so sorry to see a carrier like TE go the same way - they
37 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Check out the negative experience (mine and others) with the new Y+ in New Zealand Aviation Thread #92 (by 777ER Feb 18 2011 in Civil Aviation) and o
38 jetfuel : I used to use the 744 with the 34" in Y. Now refusing to fly AKL-LAX on their 777. Its not just the pitch, its the narrow seat, IFE box and the genera
39 AC330 : All I can say is this. When I booked my ticket from LAX to NZ in December for travel in March, I was very excited about the prospect of travelling on
40 Post contains links and images longhauler : I recall twenty years ago when Air New Zealand was the absolute best across the Pacific. This is a very sad choice for what was once a respectable air
41 diverdave : Wow, that aisle really looks narrow. The AVOD screens look pretty large, though. That's a nice touch. David
42 LondonCity : Yes, it is a good idea to break your journey. But NZ is not a major hub airline like the Gulf carriers you mentioned. So there are limited opportunit
43 pylon101 : I just finished my vacation by flying QR BBK-DOH-DME. With pleasant overnight stay in Doha. 9 abreast in 777 should be a must for the industry. Though
44 747m8te : The skycouch is a joke...how is anyone meant to fit on that thing! even for really short people...and when those seats in the row in front recline it
45 LondonCity : Initial advertising in the UK, now appearing in the national newspapers, for NZ's new inflight image, revolves around the catering rather than the se
46 zkncj : NZ has gone for the 17.5" seats on there 77W hence why the aisle is so narrow.
47 timf : With these seat widths, it sounds like the SkyCouch could not possibly be more than 4 /12 feet long. I could see one person curling up somewhat comfo
48 RoseFlyer : I did some research on 773 operators on various sites (correct me if I am wrong on any of them as I made a couple guesses), and while Air New Zealand
49 SchorschNG : Another thing that hurts the comfort lately: load factors increasing. When people first conceived 6-abreast layouts, the average load factor was 60%
50 Post contains images seabosdca : Don't forget that the 17.2" doesn't include armrests. With the armrests, you get another 4.5" to 6". It's about five feet long. I think if a couple i
51 ANZUS340 : I will not be flying ANZ again. I am flying to NZ in March and chose United instead of ANZ. The trip is longer than what I would have flown with ANZ.
52 Post contains images multimark : You can add Air Canada to the 9 abreast list, with 32" pitch. I'll definitely be avoiding ANZ if my travel plans take me in that direction.
53 Zkpilot : The reason why the aisles are narrower on the 77W is because the cabin is narrower than the 744. By making narrower aisles it means that each seat ca
54 aklrno : I hate to be the one to tell you, but UA doesn't fly to New Zealand. They codeshare on NZ. I presume you are flying from the US. You could choose Qan
55 Post contains images ZKEOJ : so did I - on EK though. And I found that What I meant is I will try NZ as well, before I make the decision to avoid their B77W. Apparently the seats
56 ANZUS340 : Oh I know. My trip takes me to Aussie where I change planes.
57 gasman : I feel for you! I'm in the same predicament. I've made the AKL-LAX run 2 or 3 times a year for the last ten years; and have witnessed and experienced
58 Post contains links and images ThomasCook : Hello, I was just checking out Premium Economy and I can't see anywhere to rest your arms...is there no armrests on these seats? View Large View Mediu
59 UAL777UK : 10 abreat on a 777 in Y is just wrong.Period. Been there, seen it, got the T - Shirt and it was a bloody miserable experience. You are completely on t
60 NZdsgnr : there are inside the shell. the left armrest on that pic is hidden by the pillow
61 Viscount724 : Not correct. The seating space is also narrower. While the actual seat cushion may be about the same width as on the 744, the gap between the seat cu
62 Post contains images joelyboy911 : The thing is, it's called Economy. We don't live in the golden days of flight anymore, when every airline was backed by a government and planes still
63 BOACCunard : Sure, but you have to draw the line somewhere. You don't see similar airlines putting 9-abreast seating on the A330/A340, for example. That is even m
64 gasman : And for me, that line has been crossed. I would prefer not travel at all than have to endure this product long haul.
65 longhauler : Yes, it certainly is. And we now move Air New Zealand from the list of "Good" airlines, to the list of "avoid" airlines. Fortunately, there are a lot
66 RoseFlyer : Is Emirates on your list?
67 joelyboy911 : I see AirAsiaX putting 9-abreast A330s into CHC, and doing the EK/SQ/CX hub model but to offer cheap (rather than luxurious) flights to Asia and Euro
68 gasman : And since when did Air NZ become AirAsiaX? As the product gets progressively worse, progressively more and more travellers will notice, and vote with
69 joelyboy911 : Never, I'm just saying that Air NZ is competing for a slightly different demographic. I suspect a lot of passengers in Y, especially on AKL-LAX and A
70 Post contains links 777ER : I think NZ thought they had a fantastic product when it was first announced last year, but did they actually test the product on a B77W model or a B7
71 gasman : Don't do it. Seriously. When I tried it, I concluded I'd prefer ordinary Y. Although the Y seats are narrow, and the pitch is as tight as a nun's, yo
72 NZ2 : I am tending to agree, here are my initial thoughts after the open day at AKL for the 77W +++ Again the Y+ left a little mixed feelings. I love the n
73 Post contains images 777ER : Heres some interesting photots of the toilets - especially the window view beside the main door
74 EK413 : After checking out the Y/C cabin no way in hell will you catch me travelling NZ Y/C on a AKL-LAX leg! Considering I am 6' 3" I would be in pain after
75 Post contains images Schweigend : Thanks for providing the photos for comparison between the old and new NZ 777 configs. Just for fun, here are a couple of pics from the database of U
76 ZKCIF : Turkish has 10. What about evacuation in 90 seconds??? Will it take avoidable deaths to happen in case of an accident with a fire that these hypernar
77 hb88 : Weird, what always differentiated ANZ (and other good long-haul carriers) was the *room* (personal space, legroom, how ever you want to defin it). On
78 Kaiarahi : Not true. 77W seats are 17.1", 744 seats are 17.8". I wonder how long it will take for NZ to be downgraded from a 4-star to a 3-star airline. Already
79 Post contains images TGV : On AF I was not bothered by the seat cushion width (I am not too "large") but by the very thin armrests and the fact that the window seat was stuck t
80 LongHauler : Yes. Along with Air France, KLM, etc. With information at our fingertips, it doesn't take long to weed out the airlines best avoided. I don't care ho
81 jetfuel : IMO the more long haul flying you do the more you appreciate seat comfort and space. I would rather be in Y with a 34" pitch decent seat and no IFE ve
82 sunrisevalley : My concern is not with Y class, fares are about the same as 10 to 15-years ago, this class is very much about getting what you pay for. But Y+ is quit
83 pylon101 : Are you sure, guys, that older NZ Boeing-747-300 were any better? The thing is that at least one NZ B-743 had been taken by Transaero. UN didn't chang
84 motorhussy : I'd consider NZ to be one of these "premium" airlines, perhaps they're just at the vanguard.
85 deconz : NZ never had the 743 - it's the 742 you are thinking of.
86 koruman : The irony is that New Zealanders always have paid a premium to fly on Air New Zealand long-haul: when I last lived there in the nineties it was signif
87 gasman : All true Koruman. I agree, Air NZ needs to decide what it wants to be. In my experience, "legacy" carriers that try to be low cost carriers generally
88 ZKCIF : To sum up, NZ are facing an identity crisis. They do not understand who they are competing against and who they are fighting for
89 koruman : You know, even if Air NZ wanted to be all things to all men it could have done it so much easier than it has chosen to do by sticking with more conven
90 alangirvan : Because of the way that people buy travel, prices can be hidden in offers. Many fares between NZ and the UK are sold as early bird specials in Octobe
91 cpd : Me too. I can use the iPhone (on airplane mode) for all the entertainment I need. It has games galore, lots of music that I like and movies too. I th
92 Viscount724 : No, TK is 9-abreast, unless their website and SeatGuru are both wrong.
93 PHKLM : KLM has 9 abreast on all of its 15 B777-200ER's. There's just 5 777-300ER's with 10 abreast. The 787 on almost all carriers will feature 9 abreast, w
94 kiwiandrew : I don't think much serious premium traffic goes to EK , their product and service are both consistently inconsistent , one flight good , the next ave
95 OP3000 : You'll take those factors into account once your friends tell you about flying NZ in Y is like being in a can of sardines. No, but passengers do fore
96 NZ107 : Well put. Although the Y+ seat is fine for anyone under about 1.8m, it doesn't cater for those wishing to escape the tightness of Y by paying a littl
97 LondonCity : I agree that EK can be inconsistent but look at its extensive network out of UK/mainland Europe compared to NZ's sparse network. Premium pax from the
98 ZKSUJ : By the sounds of things, they should have just got a bigger plane. NZ could probably have supported a fleet of 748I's or even a small fleet of 388's w
99 darenw : Yes, I have been thinking the same thing, after all they have 10 abreast on a A380 and look how much wider that is
100 richardw : The non-skycouch cabin may be better at 3-3-3 and may end up this way in time.
101 NZ107 : It's also to do with the shape of the cabin. The A380 is really fat around the window/eye level on the main deck and it stays like that due to the de
102 Pacific : I dislike flying longhaul on 744s but NZ's hard and soft product was simply excellent when I did LHR-HKG in 2008. I flew EK in 2001 and was surprised
103 KiwiRob : I think most here are forgetting this is an enthusiast website and we are more discerning when it comes to flying, most punters don't care they just w
104 LondonCity : I would agree with you, except that NZ's economy class prices on long routes to the US and UK are not the cheapest. So why opt for 10-across seating
105 seabosdca : Not quite. 9Y on a 787 is identical in seat and aisle width to 10Y on a 747, not a 777.
106 Viscount724 : Inconsistent standards (9-abreast on 772 and 10-abreast on 773) only attracts complaints as you don't know what to expect. Is KL planning to change f
107 gasman : True - but everyone, even "most punters" have their limits. The travelling public won't know they're on a 77W, or even a generic 777. They'll see the
108 joelyboy911 : I have to wonder where the balance of ignorance and deliberately shortchanging the customer falls with Air New Zealand's new 777 interior (remember t
109 gasman : My thoughts exactly. It reeks of arrogance. Well, yeah - but even this isn't exactly a generous config. Is it anywhere near as nice as 2-3-2 in the 7
110 joelyboy911 : True, but 8-abreast in economy is very generous for a 777, isn't it? Bordering on wasteful even, and I don't think the fares they'd have to charge to
111 BOACCunard : No, but a 777 is a much wider airplane. (And a 777 with 9-abreast seating can have wider seats than a 767 with 7-abreast.) 9-abreast is as spacious a
112 gasman : Oh yes, and I wasn't advocating it for Y. 9 abreast is what the the 777 fuselage width dictates; I was simply pointing out that it ends up not necess
113 joelyboy911 : This thread has turned my opinion, I think, about some future flights of mine. I was thinking of returning from Germany via LHR-LAX-AKL, but I think
114 gasman : I don't think so. For a person travelling alone, a skycouch isn't really an economically sensible option. In any case, it's not that comfortable. I c
115 ZKSUJ : I think EK can get away with it partially because of their network. Lets face it, if we want to go to Europe, EK flies all over the place and it woul
116 joelyboy911 : That's entirely possible, I suppose, but notwithstanding it's usefulness as a flat surface to lie on, if you're travelling as a twosome, it's not an
117 gasman : I agree. Having travelled on many a packed 744 between AKL and LAX, I was surprised and disappointed that Air NZ didn't go for the 748i. From where I
118 koruman : I think that those of us who follow Air NZ's management closely have seen this debacle coming. The CEO presided over a major corporate failure in the
119 OP3000 : I agree - there is a difference between innovation and improvisation. I would also add to that the "Sky Couch". It still baffles me as to how they th
120 gasman : As the major shareholder, the government ought to be taking an interest too. I feel a letter to Finance Minister Bill English coming on.
121 KiwiRob : The only problem is the airline is profitable, its defied all your doom and gloom predictions. Please tell me why any board would fire a management t
122 joelyboy911 : Time only will tell if the profits will last. And it is possible (quite easy, I imagine) to carry on reporting a profit while the business shrinks aw
123 sunrisevalley : Ed Sims has gone, ultimately what has happened happened in his watch as executive in charge of international operations. Seems to me his departure was
124 mdavies06 : This concept of Y+ hard shell seats is now on JL and AF as well, so NZ is not the first / second airline to do it. Perhaps there really is a market f
125 Post contains links v2fix : Gentlemen of this Thread Lets have the courage to call it as it is - There is new product being rolled out onboard Air New Zealand planes and the peop
126 koruman : As I have shown, you can generate short-term profits simply by reducing long-haul capacity to artificially inflate yields, and the airline has done t
127 Post contains images gasman : I'll take the bait - - will Koruman or v2Fix enlighten us mere mortals? At least as far as I am concerned, you couldn't be more wrong. I want Air NZ
128 BlueBus : Lots of hate for the new layout. Yes, most people won't notice or care. They will only care about the fare prices. One thing I didn't notice anyone me
129 koruman : Sure. Like you, I'm a loyal Air NZ frequent flyer, and I think that the staff and some of the management are terrific. But I think that the last few
130 koruman : I'm sorry, but I disagree. That is a characteristic of the American market, certainly. But over 80% of outbound passengers flying Air New Zealand lon
131 gasman : I have no knowledge of Air NZ management apart from knowing who Rob Fyfe is (who always seems to be in the Koru club whenever I am, wherever in the w
132 Viscount724 : The AF product is premium economy, not Y+. By Y+ I understand the meaning to be something like UA's or KL's product, where you can pay quite a low su
133 OP3000 : Yes, the fare structure is indeed different. But at least as far as BA is concerned the only substantive in-flight difference is the seat pitch and w
134 BOACCunard : You have a point ... but either way, AF's product is very similar to NZ's. And VS's, BA's, etc.
135 LondonCity : That is true. If you check NZ's prices for travel in April out of LHR with flights NZ1 and NZ2 you will find they are usually more expensive than qua
136 Post contains images Kaiarahi : The fare class on my NZ AKL-LAX ticket last week was O, but I have no idea if this is standardized even across * Alliance. And yes, it costs a substa
137 jr : Ditto. I have tried it on EK multiple times and on AF once and I am not a fan. But as others have pointed out, if the price is right, I'll make do wi
138 Post contains links KiwiRob : They don't appear to be doing that. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...ifted-by-passenger-cargo-increases
139 darenw : Interesting ariticle on Air NZs 773 in the latest Australian Aviation magazine, worth reading if you get the chance.
140 Post contains images hal9213 : I dont mind 3-4-3, as many already pointed out. For the same reason people are pointing fingers at the horrible condition LCC cabins are in, some just
141 Post contains links fodar : isn't it high time for a public interest consumer education campaign? Two ways this can be done come readily to mind: set up a web site specifically
142 Post contains links mattdell : Everything is amazing and nobody is happy. I think it's time to remind ourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk "Did you fly through the
143 Viscount724 : There's little or no correlation between low fares and the number of seats abreast. Just checked a few random dates CDG-YUL where AC and AF both oper
144 OP3000 : Only very frequent Y customers will really notice or think of seat-width. There is and will be less awareness of 9 vs. 10-abreast than about AVOD, wh
145 Post contains images Kaiarahi : 1. How many times have you flown ultra-long-haul in 10 abreast - i.e. 13 hours across 21 time zones? It's not the same as FR or DS routes. 2. The new
146 gasman : Maybe. But it won't take a "very frequent Y customer" to notice the cabin seemed cramped, full, and claustrophobic; that the person sitting next to t
147 Kaiarahi : 13 consecutive hours of noticing it is enough to make you remember.
148 Post contains links Sandgroper : Problems with the narrower aisles causing delays with serving meals. Pre meal snack and bar service now being removed: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/busin
149 joelyboy911 : Should scarcely come as a surprise, I suppose. But it is a disappointment indeed, and another sad indictment on the choice of 10-abreast.
150 koruman : I think you need to get to know the New Zealand market better before you assume that American norms apply. In this case they emphatically don't apply
151 koruman : Let me lift a passage from Flyer Talk today......... NZ CEO Tells Quebec Residents to Take A Flying Leap --------------------------------------------
152 Viscount724 : The "except Quebec" restriction is due to a Quebec law that makes contests of that type illegal without specific application and approval which invol
153 NZ2 : I agree Koruman, word gets round very quick. I was having a beer with a mate only an hour ago and told him of the withdrawal of the pre-meal bar/snac
154 koruman : +1 Sampling is soooo important. I'm reminded of the United survey a couple of years ago when they intended to remove food across the Atlantic out of
155 alangirvan : If your mate wanted to try the new offering - he could try flying the NZ/DJ/EY combo, so he would be ticketed by AirNZ, if that is important, and he
156 darenw : I think it is way to early to come to that conclusion According to the Australian Aviation article it said that Air NZ has more 'Inovations' that may
157 NZ107 : They've said that they're going to create something new for the 787 arrival. Plenty of time for that however they probably need to focus more attenti
158 RobMEL : I don't favour a 3-4-3 cabin in a T7. I've tried it on EK, and it was the worst flight I have ever taken. In a choice between ample leg room or ample
159 777ER : I found this comment in the article interesting "She said according to customer feedback, a pre-meal snack wasn't required. She supplied four passeng
160 NZ5 : Yes, when I talked to one of the Execs at Hangar 9 (the Air NZ development building) they mentioned that this new product was originally intended for
161 Post contains links NZ107 : At the end of the day, it comes down to how tall you are. Y+ Spaceseat, The Trial: NZ 77W Inaugural AKL-MEL (by NZ107 Feb 25 2011 in Trip Reports)
162 Schweigend : If it's more awfulness, I don't want to know. They had better choose eight-abreast for Y. UA/CO was supposed to begin IAH-AKL Dreamliner service this
163 NZ5 : 6'2" so I'm thinking I'll be a little crammed based on how I went at the open day. You never know though.
164 NZ107 : Ouch, doesn't sound too good at all.
165 777ER : What people on this forum seem to be forgetting is that this new layout is not operating every long haul flight and passengers can still currently ch
166 NZ5 : I'm certain with my opinion simply because my height is a limiting factor to my enjoyment, and that was proven on the open day when I experienced the
167 RobMEL : Aye, this is true. However, for the flights Im considering I don't believe they use B744's, and even if I book on the 772, what guarantee is there th
168 Kaiarahi : And how long you're in the seat. It's might be bearable (but not pleasant) for AKL-BNE/SYD/MEL, but absolutely not for AKL-LAX/SFO/YVR. I'm 6'0" and
169 CuriousFlyer : I've flown AF's Y sardine service once or twice and won't do it agai. Now it is premium economy or stay home. So it will be the same with NZ now. Less
170 LongHauler : Or more likely, it is just best to avoid airlines with this cabin layout. And now that the word is out, that is exactly what people will do. I have s
171 777ER : The B77Ws schedules are released and are in the booking system. NZ doesn't have enough coming to enable any flight to be subbed. What you see in the
172 NZ107 : I'm well aware of that. But either way, I'm glad I'm small enough to feel very comfortable in that seat and I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems tak
173 Viscount724 : And 10-abreast on the 747 and 9-abreast on on the DC-10/L-1011 was comparable in seating space/comfort to what they were already used to on narrow-bo
174 Kaiarahi : Maybe, but I'm sitting in execution and implementation, not a concept. Not meaning to be flippant, but a target market of only people 5'7" or less le
175 fodar : I wonder what proportion of NZ long-haul Y pax consists of men flying by themselves. I think the worst aspect of the 10-abreast configuration would no
176 Post contains images kl838 : I flew on the 10 abreast 777 with KLM and it wasn't that bad, the legroom was quite good and I had an average sized person next to me. I was in the wi
177 kiwiandrew : I am starting to re-think about the 10 abreast , initially I thought if that is all people are willing to pay for then let them have it , but a visit
178 Post contains images NZ2 : FYI, I had dinner last night with some folks that arrived from LAX yesterday morning. They said the service on NZ was fantastic, so I asked about whic
179 Viscount724 : I haven't been on a KL 10-abreast 77W (and will never fly a 10-abreast 777 as long as there are any alternatives) but many newer aircraft have seats
180 NZ107 : Definitely so but not according to NZ. With regards to the 'extra sleep surface for the wife' - I don't entirely get it because the armrests are unmo
181 hal9213 : I dont think you can see that by just randomly checking some dates and airlines. Fares are such a complex thing, and very fluctuating. But over the l
182 OP3000 : LOL, well put. Though the issue with NZ is that not too many of their most direct competitors have gone the pack-em-in in Y route, so that a passenge
183 sunrisevalley : The problem is that the new Y+ seat according to those who have experienced it is not a good old 70ies comfy seat. They can probably leave the 10 wid
184 Kaiarahi : Unfortunately, NZ's new Y+ seat is a disaster, unless you're 5'7" or less - you can't straighten your legs or cross them and the foot-well in the har
185 OP3000 : How does the Y+ configuration compare to that of BA and others?
186 aflyingkiwi : The new NZ 77W's have 50 PE seats (definitely a lot) compared to other airlines who usually have about 30-40. Regards, aflyingkiwi
187 777ER : Certainly won't be the private cabin feel that NZ has advertised its Y+ product for in the past!
188 LondonCity : NZ's only significant rival is EK who flies x3 a day ex-DXB (with connections from Europe etc). But only one of the three EK flights is operated by a
189 NZ107 : Nope, make that 2 out of 3. The A345 ceased service to New Zealand on New Years Day.
190 kiwiandrew : Nope , make that 3 out of 4 . The daily CHC-SYD-BKK-DXB flight is also a 777 .
191 enzedder : i dont think that most people will be aware what aircraft they will be on when booking a flight. let alone how many seats per row a particular aircraf
192 747m8te : Yes thats all well and good, we aviation nerds would know to avoid the 3-4-3 B77W with EK where possible and have a really enjoyable flight with EK o
193 koruman : For once we don't agree on this. The LHR-LAX flight is a day flight, and a 10 hour sector, and as such feedback will probably be positive. The proble
194 aerokiwi : Thing is, NZ is rarely even close to being the cheapest. So you're still paying a comparatively higher fare in return for less comfort. Oh, and not t
195 Kaiarahi : Time will tell, obviously. But having flown the thing, I think 10 hours is a long time to have your legs stuck in a box, even during daytime.
196 v2fix : I am afraid I am going to be out of step with most of the posters on this thread again - who, broadly speaking, I feel are missing the bigger picture
197 v2fix : I meant to say Singapore Airlines - not South African Airlines (with no disrespect meant to SA)
198 NZ107 : It has, but I reckon that they could have gone much further in terms of finding the absolute correct market for the Y+ cabin - that being taller peop
199 aerokiwi : So why didn't NZ learn this lesson and rectify obvious problems from the get-go? They've trumpeted their development process extensively, only for it
200 777ER : I believe that NZs design will still work even if a row of Y+ or Y has been removed to allow better space between the seats. Just because the angle o
201 Kaiarahi : It wont. I've flown it. At the current pitch, the seat cushion and the leg box in the seat in front are aligned with each other (i.e. the leg box is
202 gasman : But this is not what they've done. What we have in fact seen, is nothing but a bunch of marketing hype and hot air, followed by an in-flight cock-up.
203 koruman : As you have written, the 77W debacle has left "Skycouch" and "SpaceSeat" orders vanishing rather like Concorde orders in the 1970s. Concorde, you mig
204 777ER : Maybe giving us the option to order in seat was to compensate for the lack of space cause we wouldn't be able to exit our seats to walk to the galley
205 Viscount724 : Except for 2 firm orders from Iran Air (later cancelled) I think you'll find the "firm orders" you mention were options and far less than firm.[Edite
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