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CX To GRU Or EZE?  
User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4358 times:
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Heard from other forum, rumors that CX may start to South America, probably to GRU and EZE via LAX (may be) or MAD (new destination) in 2012/13, is that possible and profitable??

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4785 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 4256 times:

add DMM and KWI too to that list.

MAD can be made profitable...it would be wiser to instead code share with IB via MAD to South America!


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
Heard from other forum, rumors that CX may start to South America, probably to GRU and EZE via LAX (may be) or MAD (new destination) in 2012/13, is that possible and profitable??

Well, if they do start GRU, the flight will most certainly have to arrive in the middle of the night and leave right afterwards. SQ was lucky in terms of slots. I'm afraid that CX won't be.


User currently offlines.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Quote:
Well, if they do start GRU, the flight will most certainly have to arrive in the middle of the night and leave right afterwards. SQ was lucky in terms of slots. I'm afraid that CX won't be.

I disagree. We are talking two or three years ahead from now. A lot of water will flow under the bridge until then, and now we do not even know if CX is indeed considering this route.

OTOH, routings through Europe (Iberian peninsula) will soon be in excess capacity, IB has an extensive network, Air China and soon SQ offer services on these city-pairs, I do not see any additional room for CX.

Cathay already has flights to J'bourg and these could be extended across the South Atlantic in order to serve both Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires, this would not only jeopardise SA dominance on that market but also increase One World share on the Asia-South America traffic.



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 3):

I disagree. We are talking two or three years ahead from now. A lot of water will flow under the bridge until then, and now we do not even know if CX is indeed considering this route.

Two or three years will be even worse.


User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3641 times:
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if that is true of GRU, then CX also cannot start GIG also??

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting cx828 (Reply 5):
if that is true of GRU, then CX also cannot start GIG also??

GIG is not slot-restricted, so there would be no problem.


User currently offlines.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Quote:
Two or three years will be even worse.

Really?
Could you please provide me the next Lotto numbers also?
That is indeed a bold statement and it is only valid if, and only if, zero investment is made in infrastructure, which I really doubt.

And, officially, GRU is not slot-restricted per se. The only airports officially operating with slots are CGH, FLN (for the time being), Jacarepagua and Campo de Marte (both more recently). GRU has parking space problems, this is a fact, that has nothing to do with slots, which are related to runway capacity.

Afternoons (specially early afternoons) are still rather quiet, compared with early morning and late afternoon, with not much activity going on at both Terminals.

Time will tell...



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6217 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3506 times:
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In my opinion, the Argentine economy will implode after the elections or son after, so any theoretical service by any carrier, at this willl remain theoretical. Andlets see how long Qatar and KLM last.

User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6605 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

CX have been looking at a South American destination, but then they are always looking at multiple opportunities around the world. I don't think you will see an announcement anytime too soon regarding this though, as there is plenty more money to be made elsewhere. I think they are more interested in beefing up their current longhaul routes than announcing more new destinations. We have a 5th JFK starting this year along with ORD services which will take up a chunk of the new 777-300ER's workload. Rumours are they are already looking at 10x a week or even double daily ORD services based on the incredible demand for the route which has not even started yet.

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 7):
That is indeed a bold statement and it is only valid if, and only if, zero investment is made in infrastructure, which I really doubt.

Well, investment will be made, but nothing will be ready in two or three years. If it is ready, it will be dedicated to domestic capacity.

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 7):
And, officially, GRU is not slot-restricted per se.

GRU is officially slot-restricted! If you'd like to take a look at the airport's remaining runway capacity:

S11
http://www2.anac.gov.br/ComitedeFaci...0de%20disponibilidade_S11horas.htm

W10
http://www2.anac.gov.br/ComitedeFaci...0de%20disponibilidade_W10Horas.htm

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 7):
FLN (for the time being)

FLN's peak day is Saturday with 94 movements.There are most certaily restrictions in place, but no slot restriction.

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 7):
GRU has parking space problems, this is a fact, that has nothing to do with slots, which are related to runway capacity.

Slots take all capacity restrictions in consideration. You can make a list only for the runways, but there will be another with the other aspects considered.


User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3216 times:
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Do you mean forth JFK daily or planning the fifth. But it is nice to here that ORD has already planned for the second with the first not even launched. Anyway, thanks for your news as my topic was treated as redundancy and annyoying in another forum.

User currently offlines.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quote:
GRU is officially slot-restricted! If you'd like to take a look at the airport's remaining runway capacity:

No it is not.
According to NOTAM K0027/2010:
AD - MONITORED AIRPORT, AS A RESULT, ALL SCHEDULED PASSENGER AND/OR
CARGO FLIGHTS, AS WELL AS POSTAL NETWORK FLIGHTS WILL BE
CONDITIONED TO THE RULES AND PROCEDURES DESCRIBED IN THE BRAZIL AIP
ENR 1.9 ITEM 1)

Also, if you have a log-in to CGNA webpage you will notice that you can not assign slots at GRU.

While...

Quote:
FLN's peak day is Saturday with 94 movements.There are most certaily restrictions in place, but no slot restriction.


This is also incorrect, again, according to NOTAM, this time number K0072/2011

AD - COORDINATED AP. AS A RESULT:
1 - ACCORDING THE RULES AND PROCEDURES DESCRIBED AIP
BRAZIL, ENR 1.9, ITEM 2, ALL ACFT INTENDING OPERATE
SBFL WILL BE CONDITIONED TO ACCOMMODATION AVAILABILITY
TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE APRON CAPACITY PROVIDED THE AIRPORT.
THEREFORE, ALL ACFT SHALL REQUEST THE SLOT INTEGRATED
CENTRAL FOR ACCOMMODATION IN ADVANCE OF 1 HOUR MINIMUM AND
25 HOURS MAXIMUM, BEFORE THE TIME DESIRED FOR OPERATION,
THROUGH THE WEBSITE OF CGNA (WWW.CGNA.GOV.BR), PORTUGUESE
VERSION, LINK SERVICOS. THE REQUESTED ACCOMMODATION WILL
BE CONFIRMED BY PROVIDING THE REQUESTER WITH A NUMERIC
CODE, WHICH SHALL APPEAR ON ITEM 18 OF THE FLIGHT PLAN,
PRECEDED BY THE ABBREVIATION RMK/CLR.
EXAMPLE: RMK/CLR FL 165342.

[Edited 2011-02-20 06:04:53]

[Edited 2011-02-20 06:05:46]


"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2962 times:

If you had cared to ever read the instructions, you would see that you're talking nonsense.

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 12):
No it is not.
According to NOTAM K0027/2010:
AD - MONITORED AIRPORT, AS A RESULT, ALL SCHEDULED PASSENGER AND/OR
CARGO FLIGHTS, AS WELL AS POSTAL NETWORK FLIGHTS WILL BE
CONDITIONED TO THE RULES AND PROCEDURES DESCRIBED IN THE BRAZIL AIP
ENR 1.9 ITEM 1)

Also, if you have a log-in to CGNA webpage you will notice that you can not assign slots at GRU.

While...

ENR 1.9 AIR TRAFFIC FLOW MANAGEMENT
The Rules and Procedures on the Air Traffic Flow mentioned below complete the precept in GEN 3.3
1 MONITORED AIRPORT OPERATION
1.1 When an AD whose air TFC expectation reaches 80 (eighty) per cent of the adopted capacity, it will be declared through
NOTAM as a monitored one and, as a result, all intentions of pax and/or cargo scheduled flights, as well as those of the
postal network, will be conditioned to the slot atc obtention; keeping the release to general aviation acft which had
previously obtained it, except for restrictions of the brazilian civil aviation authority;
1.2 In a period in which an airport is declared as to be monitored, an allocated ATC SLOT will be compulsory for requiring and/ or changing the HOTRAN from the Brazilian Civil Aviation Authority.

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 12):
This is also incorrect, again, according to NOTAM, this time number K0072/2011

AD - COORDINATED AP. AS A RESULT:
1 - ACCORDING THE RULES AND PROCEDURES DESCRIBED AIP
BRAZIL, ENR 1.9, ITEM 2, ALL ACFT INTENDING OPERATE
SBFL WILL BE CONDITIONED TO ACCOMMODATION AVAILABILITY
TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE APRON CAPACITY PROVIDED THE AIRPORT.
THEREFORE, ALL ACFT SHALL REQUEST THE SLOT INTEGRATED
CENTRAL FOR ACCOMMODATION IN ADVANCE OF 1 HOUR MINIMUM AND
25 HOURS MAXIMUM, BEFORE THE TIME DESIRED FOR OPERATION,
THROUGH THE WEBSITE OF CGNA (WWW.CGNA.GOV.BR), PORTUGUESE
VERSION, LINK SERVICOS. THE REQUESTED ACCOMMODATION WILL
BE CONFIRMED BY PROVIDING THE REQUESTER WITH A NUMERIC
CODE, WHICH SHALL APPEAR ON ITEM 18 OF THE FLIGHT PLAN,
PRECEDED BY THE ABBREVIATION RMK/CLR.
EXAMPLE: RMK/CLR FL 165342.

2 CO-ORDINATED AIRPORT OPERATION
2.1 When a monitored AP whose air traffic expectation is greater than the capacity adopted, it will be declared through
NOTAM as a coordinated one, as a result, all of its LDG and tkof ops are conditioned to the obtention of atc slot.
2.2 Any airport can be changed to coordinated condition on account of an atypical seasonal demand. The existing regular flights will have their expected schedules in HOTRAN adjusted to available ATC SLOT.

So, you see, a monitored airport requires pre-authorized slot allocated by the Brazilian Civil Aviation Authority, while a co-ordinated airport only requires you to apply for one before the CGNA with some hours in advance.

You can read all about it at at http://www.aisweb.aer.mil.br/railo/_...B87BF20-B2E5-48BD-9EA8D1E8504583F5


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 2):
SQ was lucky in terms of slots

I have not checked lately but I am not aware of ANAC giving them a green light, or better, of SQ asking for one.



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User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2504 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
I have not checked lately but I am not aware of ANAC giving them a green light, or better, of SQ asking for one.

Well, do you work at ANAC? If you don't how can you say that if slot applications are not public? Only HOTRAN filings are public.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
Well, do you work at ANAC? If you don't how can you say that if slot applications are not public? Only HOTRAN filings are public.

Say what? I am just saying I do not know. Did you just let out some info you were not supposed to?



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8376 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2128 times:
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IF Cathay was ever going to fly to Latin America, Sao Paulo should be first. But via what point should CX fly it ? South Africa, USA or Europe ?

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 16):
Did you just let out some info you were not supposed to?

I did nothing of the sort. Slot applications should be public, but the ANAC is very slow when it comes to transparency.

There's a clear proceeding for GRU operations. You apply for slots and, after they're granted, you file for HOTRANs. The fact that SQ has filed for HOTRANs is a sign that have gotten slots.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1767 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
IF Cathay was ever going to fly to Latin America, Sao Paulo should be first. But via what point should CX fly it ? South Africa, USA or Europe ?

USA would be longest overall amongst those. Using GC Mapper, the shortest route would be via LAD (the shortest route is essentially flies over), then CPT or JNB, and then somewhere in Europe. Flying via DME would be about 300-400 miles longer than via CPT.

[Edited 2011-02-21 19:51:04]

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