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Egyptair seeks to lease out 30% of its fleet  
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16200 times:

Egyptair is seeking to lease out 30% of its fleet, including all of its brandnew 77Ws:
http://www.flightglobal.com/home/default.aspx
www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/0...ffer-a-third-of-its-fleet-for.html

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1100 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16129 times:

Well they won't be getting rid of them completely since they want to wet-lease the aircraft with their own crew. It will be like Jet Airways when the originally leased their 77Ws to TK.

A real shame though that MS must do this.


User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2586 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 16076 times:

Perhaps the thread title should be altered? It focuses incorrectly on the 77W.
The articles own heading would be appropriate "EgyptAir to offer a third of its fleet for lease"

We don't want resident Boeing-Boys to get annoyed!

[Edited 2011-02-21 07:20:29]


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User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 16048 times:

They're not "dropping" the aircraft, they are wet leasing the aircraft and crews until the situation stabilizes. They still own the aircraft.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15992 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 1):
It will be like Jet Airways when the originally leased their 77Ws to TK.

I can see the same thing happening, TK to lease them for 2-3 years. I think MS 77Ws 2 class is similar to TKs, correct me if I am wrong.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15987 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 1):
Well they won't be getting rid of them completely since they want to wet-lease the aircraft with their own crew. It will be like Jet Airways when the originally leased their 77Ws to TK.

A real shame though that MS must do this.

Its not too much of a surprise that they cant fill those planes which are just months old when looking at the current political situation. But the crisis in Egypt seems to be mostly over, so at least holiday travel should recover very soon. A positive trend should set in within the next weeks already. If they want to lease those planes out so quickly there must be more behind it. The 77W seems to be too big for them. Like Jet Airways, you´re right.


User currently offlineac033 From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2008, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15238 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
They're not "dropping" the aircraft, they are wet leasing the aircraft and crews until the situation stabilizes. They still own the aircraft.

They don't own the aircraft...GECAS does. The question is will GECAS allow them to wet-lease it out? Since they are the real owner of the plane


User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14982 times:
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any airlines short of 777-3er and need them immediately to speed up the expansion??

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14948 times:

Quoting na (Reply 5):
But the crisis in Egypt seems to be mostly over,

I suspect that you're wildly optimistic; I suspect that the trouble in Egypt is only just beginning. I see the likelihood of a good outcome here as pretty near zero.

Quoting ac033 (Reply 10):
The question is will GECAS allow them to wet-lease it out?

I suspect that as long as they fulfill lease conditions (which I would expect to include maintenance, pilot qualification, and other operational conditions) they can fly for anyone they want. That is probably why they want to wet-lease them; if they were to just sublease them GECAS would have more cause to object. You could consider it a long-term charter; that is pretty much what it is. I see no reason for GECAS to object.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14824 times:

Quoting cx828 (Reply 12):
any airlines short of 777-3er and need them immediately to speed up the expansion??

Emirates for interim lift perhaps? They could sell their older 777s then. Might be a problem because of the configuration though. But its a helping hand for the neighbour so may be politically interesting.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):
I suspect that you're wildly optimistic; I suspect that the trouble in Egypt is only just beginning. I see the likelihood of a good outcome here as pretty near zero.

Why? As for Egypt Im not that negative. Even the most stupid man in Egypt knows that the tourism business is vital for the country. And unrest means death for tourism. There is a risk in the process towards democracy and many hurdles to come over. I doubt the military would tolerate serious, I mean violent, civil unrest though.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14446 times:

Probably the short to moderate term reductions in tourism and business travel means it makes sense to wet-lease part of their fleet. They are a good airline, they need to keep up and recover some revenue, keep their staff employed and paid, so this is a good decision. Perhaps they could do some seasonal charter work, cover for airlines needing to rotate out a/c for major mx or or updates, especially in the Middle East and the rest of Africa.

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3241 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14293 times:
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This is a very smart move by MS.
But i really wonder if this is not a signal that there is some people in there who do not think that Egypt will recover soon from the problem it is in now, taking into consideration that the interim PM was the minister of aviation.
All the best for the Egyptian people.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3715 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13766 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 5):
But the crisis in Egypt seems to be mostly over, so at least holiday travel should recover very soon.

Package tour operators are quick to pull out and slow to go back in. Reconfiguring the schedule to fly customers out at a moment's notice is expensive, and they'd rather wait until they're pretty confident it isn't going to happen overnight again. That means the end of whatever "transition phase" we're under and a new, stable government (democratically elected or not).



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11575 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
I suspect that you're wildly optimistic; I suspect that the trouble in Egypt is only just beginning. I see the likelihood of a good outcome here as pretty near zero.

It's always funny how people assess the situation from thousands of miles away. I talk to my Egyptian colleagues every day and I am not that pessimistic.

I agree with you that there is a certain risk: the next government - whoever it will be - will not be able to solve the structural problems or at least not quickly. People might lose their current enthusiasm after they realize that the situation will not change significantly and might get frustrated again. This would be the big moment for the Muslim Brotherhood. However, as I said above I am not that pessimistic.

Quoting Garpd (Reply 2):
Perhaps the thread title should be altered? It focuses incorrectly on the 77W.
The articles own heading would be appropriate "EgyptAir to offer a third of its fleet for lease"

You are right, I was confused as well.

Best regards from Damietta, Egypt


User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1867 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10832 times:
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I changed the thread title to properly reflect that MS is trying to lease out more than just its 77W's. Thanks!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10658 times:

Scandinavian tour operators are also coming back to the tourist cities this spring already.

Sad to see that EgyptAir has to do this, although not as a surprice. The problem for European tour operators is that Egypt is one of the most visited turist destination, so no other desitnation can fill that gap. Egypt needs the turists and Europeans do not seem that frightened, yet.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2256 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10334 times:

What is the impact of this on the new flights to YYZ this summer?

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10294 times:

Quoting acidradio (Reply 20):
I changed the thread title to properly reflect that MS is trying to lease out more than just its 77W's. Thanks!

Sigh. I think that the original title brought readers here, not the new title. And that was my intention.
Who cares about a few old 737s going to Absurdistan? The core news is that the 77Ws are too big for them and that they have to go, for short or forever remains to be seen.

Quoting oykie (Reply 21):
Egypt needs the turists and Europeans do not seem that frightened, yet.

Every tourist going to Egypt knows that there´s a military jeep ahead and behind your bus when travelling overland. Whats more dangerous now that Mubarak has left than in the 90s when ideed tourists were shot by islamists I cant see. Egypt has uncomparable and unique places which arent affected by the political uproar. If I wouldnt have done a Nile cruise already (one of the must-see holidays anyone should make once in his life), it would feature as one of the next three places to go to on my list.


User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1867 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10260 times:
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Quoting oykie (Reply 21):
Scandinavian tour operators are also coming back to the tourist cities this spring already.

Sad to see that EgyptAir has to do this, although not as a surprice. The problem for European tour operators is that Egypt is one of the most visited turist destination, so no other desitnation can fill that gap. Egypt needs the turists and Europeans do not seem that frightened, yet.

I think as you get further away in the world the picture that is painted of the conditions in Egypt and hope for the future is worse and worse. If I asked any other American if they would consider going to Egypt on vacation this year I can assure you I would get a resounding "No!". Obviously things are difficult in Egypt right now but the American media paints a picture of utter chaos and mayhem. Things will eventually get back to normal. The American tourist does not want to become embroiled in this and will take their tourism dollars to one of the 190+ other countries on Earth. They might consider trying Egypt next year or in a few years when things "calm down."

On one hand I hope the best for the Egyptian protesters fighting for their rights. On the other hand I feel for the many Egyptians who depend on tourism, travel, hospitality and international trade for their livelihoods. When a country's national carrier decides to drop ONE-THIRD(!) of their fleet that speaks highly of the far-reaching economic repercussions of something like this.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10195 times:

Quoting acidradio (Reply 24):
If I asked any other American if they would consider going to Egypt on vacation this year I can assure you I would get a resounding "No!".

I am fairly certain you would have gotten the same response from them even if none of this had happened! Espcially from right wingers that are now trying to portray Egypt as "our solid allly, that we are turning our backs on"..Sheesh!


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

Quoting acidradio (Reply 24):
Obviously things are difficult in Egypt right now but the American media paints a picture of utter chaos and mayhem.

Really? This is what I hate. Ahh but wait, the headline "Utter chaos" sells better than "things are back to normal"...

Quoting acidradio (Reply 24):
Things will eventually get back to normal.

Hmm, I am working here with public instiutions, I even rented an appartment two days ago. Except for some strikes everything IS back to normal.

Quoting acidradio (Reply 24):
On one hand I hope the best for the Egyptian protesters fighting for their rights.

Which protesters? There are no protesters anymore.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to give the impression as if I am a self-nominated Egypt-Expert but I find it important to give some feedback, which obviously differs significantly from what the media prefers to report.   


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10107 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 27):

Thanks for your post from Egypt. It reflects the non-sensationial reports in the German media these days.

I have great respect for the people of Egypt for what they´ve achieved and how they´ve achieved it in the past weeks.


User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1867 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9797 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 27):
Which protesters? There are no protesters anymore.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to give the impression as if I am a self-nominated Egypt-Expert but I find it important to give some feedback, which obviously differs significantly from what the media prefers to report

As far as American tourism goes there are two factors here:
- Consistent bad press on the safety and security of Egypt
- US State Dept. still has a travel advisory out on Egypt and still only has "emergency essential personnel" on staff. That never looks good to Americans choosing a vacation destination.

The US media portrays all these sensational and crazy things going on in Egypt. I haven't seen one story on the news here that portrays Egypt as anything but a fireball or a protest right now.

This perceived danger - whether non-existent or real - causes American tourists who spend plenty of money in a place like Egypt to take their money elsewhere. Lost tourism revenue makes it hard for the vast number of people in Egypt who work in tourism, hospitality or transportation to stay employed. When a carrier like MS does something as big as sublease 1/3 of its fleet it shows how tough the economy is now and how tough it will be for the foreseeable future. It isn't like they are just loaning out these aircraft for a week or a month.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 27):
Really? This is what I hate. Ahh but wait, the headline "Utter chaos" sells better than "things are back to normal"...

Agreed. The TV news does not garner ratings by showing happy things.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9542 times:

Quoting na (Thread starter):
Egyptair is seeking to lease out 30% of its fleet, including all of its brandnew 77Ws

Which routes were served with B77Ws?! Which a/c will replace these birds, any routes cutting?!


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10368 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9381 times:

Quoting debonair (Reply 31):
Which a/c will replace these birds, any routes cutting?!

The 77Ws didnt replace anything so far, at least I havent heard of Egyptair having effectively retired some of their older 772s (or A342s) which were said to be the type to be superseded. All A342s and 772s are still listed as active, so the 77Ws at the moment are just fleet growth.
It just looks like overcapacity with a type too big, and that at exactly the wrong moment.


25 KC135TopBoom : Doesn't MS have two new B-77Ws scheduled for delivery this year? Will they accept delivery from Boeing, or will they (or Boeing) put them in sotrage i
26 TK787 : I have seen pics of one sitting at KPAE now.
27 na : Surely too early to tell, the news that MS wants to place the 77Ws elsewhere ist brandnew. The situation for Egyptair could change for the better soo
28 lightsaber : Yep... Ouch But for those considering going now, the state department advisory is having an impact. While Egypt tourism is only a fraction Americans,
29 OP3000 : I'm just arriving into this thread, but I would suggest minimizing the political discussions on the forum. Having said that, I believe the wet-leasing
30 traindoc : It is not just Egypt, but also the Persian Gulf and North Africa that are in turmoil and crisis. Even if everything was (is) fine in Egypt, the unrest
31 Post contains links OyKIE : At least until there have been an legal election, and that the military has given up its power I believe that many Europeans will wait and see as wel
32 Burkhard : They must mix it up with the neighbor, Libya. One long term problem for tourism is that alot of world famous sites and collections suffered heavy dam
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