Flyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10533 times:
Wow things are realy changing fast at DJ. Using the ATR's I wounder if they will start serving the likes of King Island in the Bass Starit, and Wynard and Devonport in Northen Tasmania? Gee sounds like the E170 was not a great choice of aircraft for DJ going back in history it sounds a bit like when Ansett ordered the BAE 146s.
It sounds like the E170 is not working for them How come what is the problem with the E170 and DJ.
vhqpa From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9547 times:
This in entirely speculation but could it be possible that ATR are leasing DJ a few ATR72-500's (possibly even second hand frames) until they can deliver the -600 frames? With 4 frames due mid year and the remaining 14 later on it seems odd having 4 -500 and 14 -600.
How far off is the -600 from EIS? I couldn't find a date on the website but it seems Caribbean Airlines ordered a few ATR72-600 the other day with October 2011 deliveries.
I have to admit I'm somewhat surprised by the decision to go for the ATR's I would have thought with his experience with Qantas and the Q400 JB would've leaned more towards the Dash especially with XR planning on acquiring the same aircraft for it's own branded operations in WA not that I'm complaining as we will now have an additional type plying our skies.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
The E170 while a neat plane is a high cost platform when it comes to operating it yourself in scheduled service flying. Look at Finnair, LOT, and also in the US Republic/Frontier that have worked to reduce their exposure to the E170s.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
tullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8721 times:
The E170 is sort of like the CRJ200. Given its capacity, it is hard to operate efficiently on shorter routes where the difference in flying time between the jets and prop-jets is minimal but the operating cost of the jets is much higher.
Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 7): Does this make DJ the first airline to phase out the E170/190?
The E190 is not being phased out. Their extra capacity (and range) means they still have a role on the longer thin routes where the 737 is too much plane.
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6): They are going to directly tackle REX flying Saab 340 by being able to offer lower fares
As I understand it, the relationship between Rex and DJ remains. Rex uses its Saabs on very light routes (Cooma, Albury, Mildura, Portland etc) so it is unlikely that DJ will attempt to enter many of their markets
fuffla From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8320 times:
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 9): As I understand it, the relationship between Rex and DJ remains. Rex uses its Saabs on very light routes (Cooma, Albury, Mildura, Portland etc) so it is unlikely that DJ will attempt to enter many of their markets
REX no longer to fly to Cooma or Portland. DJ already (with the E170) compete directly with REX to Albury and Ballina ex Sydney and Mildura ex MEL. It would not be difficult at all with the ATR72 to enter the WGA and DBO markets as well from Sydney. The -72 would still be too much aircraft though for many of the markets as they are two small. I can imagine though, that many of the country towns will be trying all they can to get a -72 at their local airport.
ZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8151 times:
Thank You, dear Tullamarine.
From my relatively modest experience (about 40 domestic flights in Australia, not so bad for a European, huh?), I got an impression that there are many remote towns with inhabitants detesting high fares and willing to fly cheaper rather than drive somewhere for 7 hours one way. I naively believe that with ATR 72 Virgin could look for some market in, say, Kangaroo Island, Broken Hill, Port Lincoln and other airports where REX has numerous daily flights. I believe that many NSW and Queensland inland destinations (all kinds of Wagga Waggas) are also underserved.
And a mad idea: could they return to NZ to fight for its domestic market and make connections to Transtasman and Polynesian Blue pacific flights? With low-cost turboprop this might work better than with Boeings, right?
allrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2024 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7948 times:
I wonder if there will be routes where the DJ ATRs will compete with QF Q400s. CBR, where I have seen E170s and QF flies Q400 (and 737s) is one that comes to mind, along with ROK (though this may stay a E190 port). My understanding is that the Q400 is faster, though personally I find the ATR500 more comfortable. What will be a deciding factor for passengers?
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8548 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7931 times:
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 11): And a mad idea: could they return to NZ to fight for its domestic market and make connections to Transtasman and Polynesian Blue pacific flights? With low-cost turboprop this might work better than with Boeings, right?
Yes , you are right .... it is a mad idea .
They have their alliance with NZ so why would they want to sink money into operating in the New Zealand domestic market in their own right ?
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
StickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6786 times:
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6): Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 3):
ATR's will be wet leased from Skywest (of Western Oz)
1. But Skywest has Fokkers only, right???
The Fokker 50's date back to the 1980's and were originally operated by Ansett who were a launch customer for the type. They are long overdue for replacement and are particularly slow on some of the longer WA sectors. The ATR's could also work very well on some of the more remote mining charters operating into unsealed airstrips.
jbguller From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5161 times:
So we had the unveiling of the new uniforms yesterday, now the unveiling of their new regional plans, I wonder what they'll have in store for us tomorrow?
A friend I have at V-Aus told me a month ago that the 25th Feb was a special date in employee's calendars, but they didn't know anything more about it. This is looking promising. Can't wait for the name and livery.
vhqpa From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4339 times:
It appears the ATR72-500 are indeed temporary. Apparently the first -600's are due February 2012. Although the article does mention that the 500's will be new builds so I'm guessing this is some sort of leasing arrangement where ATR are lending DJ a few frames until the -600's are ready. I can't imagine why someone would buy new aircraft only to replace them with slightly updated aircraft 10 months later.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4144 times:
Quoting vhqpa (Reply 5): I have to admit I'm somewhat surprised by the decision to go for the ATR's I would have thought with his experience with Qantas and the Q400 JB would've leaned more towards the Dash especially with XR planning on acquiring the same aircraft for it's own branded operations in WA not that I'm complaining as we will now have an additional type plying our skies.
Horses for courses.
If the DJ stage length over which the ATRs are to operate is fairly short, then not much difference in block time between it and the Q. But it's cheaper to buy, with no real competitive disadvantage. If it's a somewhat longer stage length, then the Q wins out in terms of time, but are you willing to pay for that ?
PW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2428 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3987 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 2): Still, having a small subfleet with different engines and a new cockpit
Both -500 and -600 models are/will be delievered with PW127M engines. Earlier models ATR-72-500 were delivered with PW127F engines. However the later PW127F engines are virtually identical to the PW127M engines, and have virtually identical build standard. Thus they are fully interchangeable, and engine maintenance planning/training for these different models does not provide any noticeable inconvenience.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
r2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2596 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3883 times:
Congrats to ATR, this is very significant for them. Given that ATR's customers tend to order a/c in small batches, 18 in one go is a large order. Keep in mind that ATR is ramping up to 70 aircraft per year, so this is about a quarter of their yearly production.
Quoting vhqpa (Reply 5): This in entirely speculation but could it be possible that ATR are leasing DJ a few ATR72-500's (possibly even second hand frames) until they can deliver the -600 frames? With 4 frames due mid year and the remaining 14 later on it seems odd having 4 -500 and 14 -600
That sounds pretty right. I doubt you can place an order with ATR today and get your aircraft in a few months, they have a decent backlog (150+). So ATR probably had some -500's available in the short term, DJ probably needed the a/c in the short term, so they worked out this deal. Then DJ will return the -500's as the last -600's come online.
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6): 2. This means they sacrifice flight speed for operation costs in comparison with Dash 8-402, right?
In a simple way, yes. But I'm quite surprised that ATR got this order as for the distances in Australia the Q400's speed advantage would have been important and may have very well been worth the extra direct operating cost. But DJ has obviously made a different economic analysis.
Another factor in favor of ATR is that it is a popular a/c in the Asia-Pacific region, and ATR has a pretty good support network set up there - which must help in terms of spares, pilot training, etc