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Virgin Blue Orders 18 ATR72s.  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10647 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-blue-orders-up-to-18-atr72s.html

Finally they have made their choice between the Q400 and ATR , and chose the latter by placing an order for up to 18 ATR72 , with first ATR72-500 delivery next May.

Apparently the 500s will be replaced by the 600s.This also signs the end of the E170 , as they will phase them out.

Great deal for ATR , and congratulations to Virgin Blue.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10563 times:

Wow things are realy changing fast at DJ. Using the ATR's I wounder if they will start serving the likes of King Island in the Bass Starit, and Wynard and Devonport in Northen Tasmania? Gee sounds like the E170 was not a great choice of aircraft for DJ going back in history it sounds a bit like when Ansett ordered the BAE 146s.

It sounds like the E170 is not working for them How come what is the problem with the E170 and DJ.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

The order is a mix of -500s and -600s. Which I find strange.

The -600 isn't too far off now, surely they could have managed to get all-600s?

Maybe they were in a hurry to start deploying them and they were happy to take the last few -500s off the line while the -600s arrived.

Still, having a small subfleet with different engines and a new cockpit, on such a small fleet, can't be good for commonality.

[Edited 2011-02-23 02:18:34]


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9794 times:

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):

You forgot to mention that the ATR's will be wet leased from Skywest (of Western Oz)  

[Edited 2011-02-23 05:53:02]


Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9758 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 3):
You forgot to mention that the ATR's will be wet leased from Skywest (of Western Oz)

That is right, but it still seems odd that they didn't go for all -600's.

Can't wait to try these turboprops!

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently onlinevhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

This in entirely speculation but could it be possible that ATR are leasing DJ a few ATR72-500's (possibly even second hand frames) until they can deliver the -600 frames? With 4 frames due mid year and the remaining 14 later on it seems odd having 4 -500 and 14 -600.

How far off is the -600 from EIS? I couldn't find a date on the website but it seems Caribbean Airlines ordered a few ATR72-600 the other day with October 2011 deliveries.

I have to admit I'm somewhat surprised by the decision to go for the ATR's I would have thought with his experience with Qantas and the Q400 JB would've leaned more towards the Dash especially with XR planning on acquiring the same aircraft for it's own branded operations in WA not that I'm complaining as we will now have an additional type plying our skies.


Vhqpa.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 21 hours ago) and read 9106 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 3):
ATR's will be wet leased from Skywest (of Western Oz)

1. But Skywest has Fokkers only, right???

2. This means they sacrifice flight speed for operation costs in comparison with Dash 8-402, right?

as a result, 3. this means that they are targeting even smaller markets than would be viable if flying Embraer 170 or hypothetically Dash 8-402.

as a result, 4. They are going to directly tackle REX flying Saab 340 by being able to offer lower fares?!


User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 21 hours ago) and read 9094 times:

Does this make DJ the first airline to phase out the E170/190? I bet these ATR's are going to look sharp!

Cheers

MCO 2 BRS


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25739 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 8811 times:

Good deal. The ATRs will allow DJ to do some new things, and has great economics.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 1):
How come what is the problem with the E170 and DJ.

The E170 while a neat plane is a high cost platform when it comes to operating it yourself in scheduled service flying. Look at Finnair, LOT, and also in the US Republic/Frontier that have worked to reduce their exposure to the E170s.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 8751 times:

The E170 is sort of like the CRJ200. Given its capacity, it is hard to operate efficiently on shorter routes where the difference in flying time between the jets and prop-jets is minimal but the operating cost of the jets is much higher.

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 7):
Does this make DJ the first airline to phase out the E170/190?

The E190 is not being phased out. Their extra capacity (and range) means they still have a role on the longer thin routes where the 737 is too much plane.

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6):
They are going to directly tackle REX flying Saab 340 by being able to offer lower fares

As I understand it, the relationship between Rex and DJ remains. Rex uses its Saabs on very light routes (Cooma, Albury, Mildura, Portland etc) so it is unlikely that DJ will attempt to enter many of their markets



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
User currently offlinefuffla From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 9):
As I understand it, the relationship between Rex and DJ remains. Rex uses its Saabs on very light routes (Cooma, Albury, Mildura, Portland etc) so it is unlikely that DJ will attempt to enter many of their markets

REX no longer to fly to Cooma or Portland. DJ already (with the E170) compete directly with REX to Albury and Ballina ex Sydney and Mildura ex MEL. It would not be difficult at all with the ATR72 to enter the WGA and DBO markets as well from Sydney. The -72 would still be too much aircraft though for many of the markets as they are two small. I can imagine though, that many of the country towns will be trying all they can to get a -72 at their local airport.


User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 8181 times:

Thank You, dear Tullamarine.
From my relatively modest experience (about 40 domestic flights in Australia, not so bad for a European, huh?), I got an impression that there are many remote towns with inhabitants detesting high fares and willing to fly cheaper rather than drive somewhere for 7 hours one way. I naively believe that with ATR 72 Virgin could look for some market in, say, Kangaroo Island, Broken Hill, Port Lincoln and other airports where REX has numerous daily flights. I believe that many NSW and Queensland inland destinations (all kinds of Wagga Waggas) are also underserved.
And a mad idea: could they return to NZ to fight for its domestic market and make connections to Transtasman and Polynesian Blue pacific flights? With low-cost turboprop this might work better than with Boeings, right?


User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2142 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 7978 times:

I wonder if there will be routes where the DJ ATRs will compete with QF Q400s. CBR, where I have seen E170s and QF flies Q400 (and 737s) is one that comes to mind, along with ROK (though this may stay a E190 port). My understanding is that the Q400 is faster, though personally I find the ATR500 more comfortable. What will be a deciding factor for passengers?


Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 7961 times:
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Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 11):
And a mad idea: could they return to NZ to fight for its domestic market and make connections to Transtasman and Polynesian Blue pacific flights? With low-cost turboprop this might work better than with Boeings, right?

Yes , you are right .... it is a mad idea .

They have their alliance with NZ so why would they want to sink money into operating in the New Zealand domestic market in their own right ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineQFYMML From Australia, joined Jun 2007, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 7712 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 12):
What will be a deciding factor for passengers?

Honestly? The price of the fare.



A300,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/5/6,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8,74SP/2/3/4,752,762/3/4,77E/3/W,L1011,DC9,DC10,S340,DHC6/8,ATR72
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 758 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6):
Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 3):
ATR's will be wet leased from Skywest (of Western Oz)

1. But Skywest has Fokkers only, right???

The Fokker 50's date back to the 1980's and were originally operated by Ansett who were a launch customer for the type. They are long overdue for replacement and are particularly slow on some of the longer WA sectors. The ATR's could also work very well on some of the more remote mining charters operating into unsealed airstrips.


Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlinejbguller From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

So we had the unveiling of the new uniforms yesterday, now the unveiling of their new regional plans, I wonder what they'll have in store for us tomorrow?  

A friend I have at V-Aus told me a month ago that the 25th Feb was a special date in employee's calendars, but they didn't know anything more about it. This is looking promising. Can't wait for the name and livery.


User currently offlineDJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6):
1. But Skywest has Fokkers only, right???

They actually also have a lone A320. This link to the fleet page on Skywest's website is useful (funny what info can be found straight from the airline's website). http://www.skywest.com.au/FlightInfo/Fleet.aspx


User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

I am woundering if DJ are running their E170s into HBT my wife and I are flying down in March and it would be good to go in a E170 to see what its like to ride in.

User currently onlinevhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

It appears the ATR72-500 are indeed temporary. Apparently the first -600's are due February 2012. Although the article does mention that the 500's will be new builds so I'm guessing this is some sort of leasing arrangement where ATR are lending DJ a few frames until the -600's are ready. I can't imagine why someone would buy new aircraft only to replace them with slightly updated aircraft 10 months later.

Link



Vhqpa.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 5):
I have to admit I'm somewhat surprised by the decision to go for the ATR's I would have thought with his experience with Qantas and the Q400 JB would've leaned more towards the Dash especially with XR planning on acquiring the same aircraft for it's own branded operations in WA not that I'm complaining as we will now have an additional type plying our skies.

Horses for courses.

If the DJ stage length over which the ATRs are to operate is fairly short, then not much difference in block time between it and the Q. But it's cheaper to buy, with no real competitive disadvantage. If it's a somewhat longer stage length, then the Q wins out in terms of time, but are you willing to pay for that ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
Still, having a small subfleet with different engines

Same engine PW127M but your right about the cockpit...steam v. glass and of course IFE!



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2500 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
Still, having a small subfleet with different engines and a new cockpit

Both -500 and -600 models are/will be delievered with PW127M engines. Earlier models ATR-72-500 were delivered with PW127F engines. However the later PW127F engines are virtually identical to the PW127M engines, and have virtually identical build standard. Thus they are fully interchangeable, and engine maintenance planning/training for these different models does not provide any noticeable inconvenience.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Congrats to ATR, this is very significant for them. Given that ATR's customers tend to order a/c in small batches, 18 in one go is a large order. Keep in mind that ATR is ramping up to 70 aircraft per year, so this is about a quarter of their yearly production.

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 5):
This in entirely speculation but could it be possible that ATR are leasing DJ a few ATR72-500's (possibly even second hand frames) until they can deliver the -600 frames? With 4 frames due mid year and the remaining 14 later on it seems odd having 4 -500 and 14 -600

That sounds pretty right. I doubt you can place an order with ATR today and get your aircraft in a few months, they have a decent backlog (150+). So ATR probably had some -500's available in the short term, DJ probably needed the a/c in the short term, so they worked out this deal. Then DJ will return the -500's as the last -600's come online.

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 6):
2. This means they sacrifice flight speed for operation costs in comparison with Dash 8-402, right?

In a simple way, yes. But I'm quite surprised that ATR got this order as for the distances in Australia the Q400's speed advantage would have been important and may have very well been worth the extra direct operating cost. But DJ has obviously made a different economic analysis.
Another factor in favor of ATR is that it is a popular a/c in the Asia-Pacific region, and ATR has a pretty good support network set up there - which must help in terms of spares, pilot training, etc


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

In related news, Wings Air has converted 15 options, taking its total order to 30.

http://www.atraircraft.com/newsroom/...ress-releases-details-1134-en.html

And with 100$ oil back and here to stay, I predict this is going to be a good year for ATR!


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