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AA: Third 777-300ER  
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 62
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 25823 times:

Among a few other things announced today, including a reduction in projected 2011 capacity growth (following Delta's recent similar announcement), AA also announced that it has increased its order for the 777-300ER from 2 to 3 - still not enough to really make an economically viable fleet, but does tend to hint that, as expected, there is more to come ...

A news story about it is here:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/03/american-airlines-cuts-capacit.html

And the actual AMR presentation is here:

(Long url)

81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12408 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 25525 times:

Well, they're building it bit by bit, I'll give them that ... a 50% increase over the last order!

Has that rumour about AA taking cancelled JL 77Ws or even ex-JL 744s died completely now?


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 24793 times:

This "AA way" of ordering aircraft is not uncommon, sure there will more 77W to come.

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 24660 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 2):
This "AA way" of ordering aircraft is not uncommon, sure there will more 77W to come.

Crazy. Still have no idea WTH they are thinking on this tack.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8280 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 24248 times:
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This is the drip system of getting 77W's. Lets order one every 2 months.

User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 23280 times:

On what routes wiould we see the B773?

User currently offlinecloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 23133 times:

As soon as the unions sign off on them, expect a bigger order.


Boston, USA
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 23128 times:

Do we know who is financing these, or will AA pay cash for them? Maybe the financing arrangements are why they are announcing the orders this way.

p.s. that's a total WAG. Anyone with real info feel free to correct me.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinegspflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 23060 times:

Good thing their not ordering 738s like this to replace the MD-80s, it would take nearly 38 years to replace them! By then the 737NG would seem ancient.

(taking into consideration that they currently have 225, if they replaced 6 per year)


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22896 times:
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Why would the pilots have an issue with AA flying the 77W? i'd think bigger aircraft=more money for the people at the top of the seniority list, whom i assume would have first right of refusal to transition to it.

Also, when are these aircraft expected to be delivered?



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3736 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22731 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Still have no idea WTH they are thinking on this tack.

I'm guessing they are currently fighting internal battles with various unions regarding salaries and benefits. Those are usually not good times to announce billion dollar orders.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22658 times:

the problem with ordering one-at-a-time is that it's hard for Boeing to give any major volume discounts (other than the standard preferred-airline discounts).

Without any MoU or LoI or options, it's hard for Boeing to know whether today's add-on order will be the last one for a while, or it'll be the same pattern until they order 30

Better to order a bunch of options than cancel later (no cost other than minimal deposit) than to pay nearly full unit price. For a business that knows to milk last-minute customers with Y fares, it's not a totally smart move.


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22140 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
the problem with ordering one-at-a-time is that it's hard for Boeing to give any major volume discounts (other than the standard preferred-airline discounts).

Without any MoU or LoI or options, it's hard for Boeing to know whether today's add-on order will be the last one for a while, or it'll be the same pattern until they order 30

Better to order a bunch of options than cancel later (no cost other than minimal deposit) than to pay nearly full unit price. For a business that knows to milk last-minute customers with Y fares, it's not a totally smart move.

I am guessing there is more to this story than we know. How do we know they don't have a MoU, LoI or Options, just because they haven't publically stated so. I would bet that this order for one 777-300ER is based on a previously agreed upon price and terms and that additional orders will be for the same.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 21318 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
the problem with ordering one-at-a-time is that it's hard for Boeing to give any major volume discounts (other than the standard preferred-airline discounts).

AA has a standing contract for volume discounts on any aircraft they choose. They also have a few never to be delivered 77Es on order. As one of the largest airlines in the world, and one with an "all Boeing" fleet, counting the MD80s which Boeing supplies profitable parts for, AA really need not worry about not getting good pricing.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5174 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 21129 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
Why would the pilots have an issue with AA flying the 77W? i'd think bigger aircraft=more money for the people at the top of the seniority list, whom i assume would have first right of refusal to transition to it.

There is a limit on the length of a flight segment that the pilots can fly under the current agreement. Longer flights have been negotiated in the past. Remember that AA had to give up its DFW-China routes, because the pilots wouldn't agree to a longer flight, thanks to contract negotiations.

My guess is that AA doesn't want to announce a large order for 777-300s until there is a tentative agreement, or at least substantial progress towards a new contract.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2983 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 21135 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
AA really need not worry about not getting good pricing.

Boeing values AA as an important customer and treats them accordingly.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 19738 times:

Three frames would be enough to run a daily MIA-JNB-MIA-NRT-MIA, no?

Just speculating...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30564 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 19515 times:
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Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
the problem with ordering one-at-a-time is that it's hard for Boeing to give any major volume discounts (other than the standard preferred-airline discounts).

Without any MoU or LoI or options, it's hard for Boeing to know whether today's add-on order will be the last one for a while, or it'll be the same pattern until they order 30.

As United787 and ikramerica have noted, AA need not worry about getting a good price.

What I would like to know is the delivery schedule for these aircraft. It is possible that AA would like to receive a number of 77Ws in short order and Boeing is working with other customers on delivery slots. As Boeing frees up a slot that AA wants, AA places a follow-on order to fill it.

It could also be that AA is converting their 77E orders to 77W, but is securing funding one frame at a time so the conversions are coming piecemeal, instead of all at once.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19416 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
AA has a standing contract for volume discounts on any aircraft they choose. They also have a few never to be delivered 77Es on order. As one of the largest airlines in the world, and one with an "all Boeing" fleet, counting the MD80s which Boeing supplies profitable parts for, AA really need not worry about not getting good pricing.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
It could also be that AA is converting their 77E orders to 77W

My first thought, too, but no. The charts that Beverly Goulet briefed at the JP conference today confirm that these 777-300ER orders are in addition to the existing 7 outstanding 777-200ER orders, which are still in place and still confirmed (at least as of now) for delivery over the next few years.

That being said, I definitely could see AA converting the remaining 777-200ER orders to -300ERs in due time, when financing, scheduling, delivery terms and the pilot contract all fall into alignment. 7 outstanding (converted) -200ERs + 3 new -300ERs would make a fleet of at least 10, which I still don't think is large enough to be economically sustainable, but it's definitely getting there.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19261 times:

I think that these planes will be primarly used to launch Asian and African routes from MIA. I cant think of a better use of such aircraft other than using them to expand from MIA.

User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19154 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
That being said, I definitely could see AA converting the remaining 777-200ER orders to -300ERs in due time, when financing, scheduling, delivery terms and the pilot contract all fall into alignment. 7 outstanding (converted) -200ERs + 3 new -300ERs would make a fleet of at least 10, which I still don't think is large enough to be economically sustainable, but it's definitely getting there.

I think 10 77W's would likely be enough to be sustainable, not that I think they'd stop there. This would put them @ 56 total 777's in their fleet. With total numbers at that level, I'd think that a smaller group of 77W's would be OK seeing as how there's so much operational commonality between the two sub-types.

Edit: Just realized that AA's 772 are Trent-powered. I guess adding the 77W to their existing fleet would be more complicated than I presumed.

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
outstanding 777-200ER orders, which are still in place and still confirmed (at least as of now) for delivery over the next few years.

I'm curious how long will we have to wait to see if these conversions actually take place. Any idea when the first of these are scheduled to be delivered?

[Edited 2011-03-01 15:10:24]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7497 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19025 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 19):
I think that these planes will be primarly used to launch Asian and African routes from MIA. I cant think of a better use of such aircraft other than using them to expand from MIA.

South Africa. I agree completely. Asia? Definately not. The 77W is way too much plane for any MIA-Asia flight assuming were talking about the Far East.

If we are talking existing routes that would be best suited for the 77W, DFW-NRT or MIA-EZE are at the very top of the list.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2342 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18977 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Has that rumour about AA taking cancelled JL 77Ws or even ex-JL 744s died completely now?

If I'm not mistaken, I've heard that all of JAL's 744 fleet have already been placed with other carriers (Transaero was a name I've heard a lot). 77W's I could see as a possibility, but not their 744s...



"Drunks run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineflyabr From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18317 times:

The bigger question in my mind is when is AA gonna firm up that 40 plus 787 order??

User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1504 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18090 times:

Quoting flyabr (Reply 23):
The bigger question in my mind is when is AA gonna firm up that 40 plus 787 order??

When they work things out with their pilots.


25 lucky777 : But can't the 77E make these routes with relative ease?
26 FlyAA757 : I would imagine these are 772 options that need to be exercised or expire. I would bet we see up to 7 more of these converted over the next several mo
27 LAXtoATL : MIA-JNB would be outside of the range of the 77E (at least with profit generating load). And the return trip would be even worse (probably would requi
28 Stitch : AA could have signed a "Power by the Hour" contract with GE where they take care of all the maintenance and spares.
29 DocLightning : Union contracts are byzantine things that have certain causes dedicated for aircraft of a given type. Each aircraft needs certain details settled. Ex
30 lucky777 : The 77W only has about 200nm more range than does a 77E so i'm not sure it makes that much difference really. MIA-JNB is 7000nm so i would think both
31 willyj : Would AA's economy section be the first 77W's configured 2x5x2 (assuming they keep that configuration)? Going through the list of airlines flying 77W'
32 LAXtoATL : Are you sure about this? Delta says ATL-JNB is 8439 miles. I know MIA can't be 1400 miles closer than ATL, they are only a few hundred miles a part.
33 LAXtoATL : If this is true I don't think either plane can economically fly the route. It seems like it would be a push eastbound, but impossible carrying any me
34 Post contains links max550 : That is statute miles. ATL-JNB is 7334nm. http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=a...STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=
35 LAXtoATL : thanks for that.
36 LAXtoATL : Can someone confirm or deny whether in fact either of or both (77E, 77W) could economically fly MIA-JNB-MIA? The route is shorter than I initially th
37 American 767 : The issue would be not to be able to fly JNB-MIA nonstop. The aircraft would not be able to take off with a full load of fuel because of the high ele
38 LAXtoATL : Thanks. Now does this apply to the 77E or 77W or both?
39 warren747sp : Unless they order the 772LR like Delta otherwise not feasible from JNB.
40 miaintl : How about MIA-NRT, how much shorter is the distance compared to JNB/CPT?
41 SESGDL : MIA-NRT is a considerably shorter distance than MIA-JNB, some 600nm. However, why would AA need the 77W for MIA-NRT? The 77E flew ATL-PVG with DL, wh
42 washingtonian : I can't wait to see what routes they put the 77Ws on...I imagine they will initially be used on current 77E routes, and thus the 77Es will be freed up
43 Post contains images aeroflot001 : God, I have my fingers, arms legs and toes crossed for that! I would love for my Flagship flight (909 EZE-MIA) to be a 77W and the demand is definite
44 American 767 : I think it applies to both. I remember when SAA flew the 744 JFK-JNB, it couldn't do it nonstop on the reverse route.
45 EK413 : Just curious what influrence the union have on AA fleet planning? I ask the same question...? EK413
46 OA412 : Such an odd way of ordering this aircraft. Don't get me wrong, it's good to see them ordering these. And, you just know it's going to be one awesome l
47 deltal1011man : because the APA has been waiting for a while for a new contract..... they will likely tell AA to get the contract done with 787 and 77W pay rates in
48 jmc1975 : You know it's a really sad world when you see what used to be the world's largest airline make a grandiose announcement about ordering one additional
49 VC10er : Will AA take this opportunity to upgrade seat design in C now that they trail UA and DL who have real flat seats?
50 SCL767 : AA has real flat seats in C on both the B772s and B763s. DL still has a "cuddle seat" in C on certain a/c.
51 lucky777 : If i'm not mistaken, by 2013 all of Delta's international widebody fleet will have the lie-flats.
52 SCL767 : That's great, especially for long-haul flights. AA has them installed on all widebody a/c except the B762. Thus it's guaranteed on all B772 and B763
53 UAL777UK : Since when?. The "new" seats in J were angled not lie flat, hence there was talk they were going to roll out a completely new seat, perhaps on the ne
54 Post contains links SCL767 : I would think that AA would introduce a new product both in First and Business when they receive the new a/c. Is the current product not lie-flat? Am
55 ATLflyer : First is a true lie-flat while Business is angled lie-flat. Definitely will be time for a new product by the end of 2012 when they begin receiving th
56 Post contains images deltal1011man : Got to order em before you put seats on em.
57 UAL777UK : Thought so. They missed a trick when the installed those and now will have to pay more big $$$$ to install a new seat, however I look forward to seei
58 Post contains links SCL767 : American intends to acquire an initial 42 Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners, scheduled for delivery beginning in 2012 and ending in 2018. Under Purchase Agree
59 deltal1011man : yea I know about the no order PR. Half a year after that we sit with no APA/APFA/TWU CBA any where close to happening which means we aren't any where
60 SCL767 : AA will eventually operate the B787s, along with other oneworld® partners BA, JL, LA, QF, RJ, etc. When people think AA is going to fail miserably,
61 deltal1011man : Not saying they wont, but I am saying they A) don't have any real orders and B) wouldn't bet on them placing any real orders anytime soon. My guess i
62 mogandoCI : As a publicly traded company, they have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to report on a major purchase (or potential purchase) like this th
63 SCL767 : The delay affected Boeing's first customers, so AA's may come around that time. AA is focusing on doing things the right way, which will benefit all
64 DFWEagle : That was the original delivery schedule, before the latest round of delays to the 787 program. Boeing has since informed AA that their first 787-9 wi
65 DFWEagle : Perhaps an AA pilot could confirm here, but looking at the current AA-APA contract, it seems to me that a pay-scale applicable to the 77W is already
66 deltal1011man : true but it has happened. (not at AA but Delta did it) to a point. All it takes is a LOA like they did with ORD-DEL. The question becomes would the A
67 N328KF : Because AA can. Their late 90s-era umbrella agreement (which formerly included an exclusivity clause) allows AA the flexibility to order aircraft in
68 SCL767 : AA will already have B787s in their fleet during 2013-2014.
69 Post contains links MiAAmi : Does anyone know when the new 737's for this year will start being delivered? IIRC the last delivery was around the end of 2010. It is my understandin
70 Post contains images AA777223 : Optimistic much? At this point, I will be surprised to even see the plane flying with ANY airline by then. The delays have been eternal. Considering
71 delimit : AA still gets extremely preferential pricing from Boeing (exclusivity agreement still in effect, minus the exclusivity part). We'd need to know the t
72 A388 : Yes, I also don't see AA getting the 787 before 2014 looking at the current state of the 787 program. 2014 seems more realistic, especially seeing th
73 Stitch : I do not recall the specifics (they have been posted to a.net), but AA does have a contract with Boeing for the 787-9 and that contract requires AA to
74 DFWEagle : Yes, that's right, AA must give 18 months notice and currently the first delivery slot they have allocated to them is in 2014. Here's the details:
75 Viscount724 : Many AA orders for other aircaft types included many small orders. Following shows the order date and numbers of aircraft involved for AA's 777-200ER
76 American 767 : ANA will get it soon. But yes I agree, American definitely won't get it before 2014 if not 2015. It depends as discussed above and on other threads o
77 LDVAviation : When the announcement was made, Tom Horton explained that even though it was not a firm order yet AA had put down deposits on the slots.
78 AA767400 : Is this for 772s only? Because as far as I'm concerned, AA's first 777 was delivered in 1998. That I'm very curious to find out. I hope they go with
79 LAXtoATL : I think he is listing order dates, not delivery dates. I believe he is comparing how AA is ordering the 77W in several small orders to a similar (alt
80 deltal1011man : the best is 2014 and again they have to order them before we even worry about when they get them.
81 American 767 : Correct. I remember it was in 1996 that American placed its initial order for the 777, it was the time Bill Clinton was president. The first 777 was
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