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CO's (soon To Be UA's) 767 Conversion Question  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7104 times:
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Hello all,

I was looking through the new UA site, and then went to CO's site. I found the page where they show the progress on refitting the fleet with the new product. There is an outline of a 767 and it says 12 767-400, and that's it. Now I know CO has many 767's (how many 767's do they have aside from the 12 764's ?) anyway the chart indicates that zero 764's have been refitted. No mention of the others. Is the reason that the new UA have not decided on which ones will be in CO arrangement with CO's new BF lie flat seats and which ones "may" get UA's version of a refit with First class on ex-CO metal?

I cannot imagine they would refit ALL of CO's 767's with the new CO seats, won't they need some to have F, C, E+ and E? 767's from both airlines cross the atlantic like crazy and compete for a lot of European's who fly paid F. I dont see how they can compete with all those carriers (just one example Swiss that have A330's refitted with First class. On top of that those NEW Swiss F and C seats are amazing. They blew my mind! Even TAM to the USA has one row of F suites. I was told by TAM FA's that while there are only 6 or 8 seats in one row, many Brazilian celebs and big business people pay for those seats which is why they must keep them as RG did.

Also, if you take the CO virtual tour of their new BF seat, they "look" so much like the new UA seats that I don't see why they coudn't fly toghether when they are one airline..with both the UA and CO seat versions for a long time. Suppose UA and TAM merged (impossible I know) TAM id red and gold, and the new UA would have a fleet in silver and blue and a bunch of A330's in red and gold-- they would have to have spent a fortune ripping out new TAM seats and putting in matching ones! By chance does anyone know...did CO buy from the same manufacturer as UA?

Did United announce a fleet plan yet on the topic of First class, Business class, Business First combo yet?

I want the new UA to replace their 747's with 747-8i. How boring it would be to have an airline with 1500 airplanes all one level!


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2463 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Now I know CO has many 767's

Not really. 16 767-400ER and 10 767-200ER.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Is the reason that the new UA have not decided on which ones will be in CO arrangement with CO's new BF lie flat seats and which ones "may" get UA's version of a refit with First class on ex-CO metal?

Not exactly. The 764s were always next in line after the 757/777 refits are completed. The first 767-400ER with the new BF flat beds is due out sometime in the 3rd quarter. It was a bit of an engineering challenge to design the single center seat on the 767 but as I understand they are ready to roll.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
won't they need some to have F, C, E+ and E?

Not necessarily. E+ will be a part of the new company, but there is no guidance as to whether a 3 class cabin will be retained on all or some longhaul aircraft. I'm 100% confident that F will stay, but it is true that not every market demands the service.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
did CO buy from the same manufacturer as UA?

Yes, B/E Aerospace manufactures CO's BusinessFirst and UA's new flat bed seats in First and Business.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Did United announce a fleet plan yet on the topic of First class, Business class, Business First combo yet?

Not yet. Patiently waiting...  


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9818 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6970 times:

I am a bit surprised they kept the CO business seat that have been put on the 777s and 757s. The width of the 767 makes them a challenge. The flat UA seat fits perfectly into a 767 at 6 abreast since they are much narrower, but the angled CO seat would be a bit strange in my mind at 5 abreast.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2463 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6902 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I am a bit surprised they kept the CO business seat that have been put on the 777s and 757s. The width of the 767 makes them a challenge. The flat UA seat fits perfectly into a 767 at 6 abreast since they are much narrower, but the angled CO seat would be a bit strange in my mind at 5 abreast.

You can actually fit more of the CO design in a given space on the 767.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6193 times:
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On the CO new BF seat, they look side by side like UA's new C seat- and you can see they are wider which is a good thing...but does the PAX at the window need to climb over the PAX on the aisle? Or Is there a walk around path like BA that I'm not seeing?

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 1):
CODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted Wed Mar 2 2011 12:20:16 your local time (9 hours 34 minutes 39 secs ago) and read 828 times:

So a total of 26 767's! I am so surprised as most times I have flown CO, I was on a 767. And I have flown the often. UA has about 44 right? Delta seems like they are the premier 767 airline. Maybe AA?

Thanks



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 637 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
There is an outline of a 767 and it says 12 767-400, and that's it. Now I know CO has many 767's (how many 767's do they have aside from the 12 764's ?)

They have 16 764s, but four are corralled at GUM for the Micronesia operation. They also operate 10 762s. Evidently, the 762s and the four GUM 764s are in upgrade limbo for now.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5797 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
UA has about 44 right?

35 767-300ERs

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
On the CO new BF seat, they look side by side like UA's new C seat- and you can see they are wider which is a good thing...but does the PAX at the window need to climb over the PAX on the aisle? Or Is there a walk around path like BA that I'm not seeing?

PMCOs J seats are wider on the 777s but narrower on the 757s that PMUAs J class seats....you step over the aisle passenger to get out of PMCOs seats just like on PMUAs seat.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
Delta seems like they are the premier 767 airline.

96

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
And I have flown the often. UA has about 44 right?

35

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
Maybe AA?

58



yep.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5564 times:

Regarding the CO 762's, it is odd that they have been removed from the upgrade list. Are they being sold when the 788's arrive next year or do they have another mission in mind (p.s., AirMike, etc.)? Little has been said about them.

User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 7):

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
Maybe AA?

58

+ 15 762s = 73


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 9):

thats right forgot about the 200s. I thought that number was to low.



yep.
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 8):
Regarding the CO 762's, it is odd that they have been removed from the upgrade list. Are they being sold when the 788's arrive next year or do they have another mission in mind (p.s., AirMike, etc.)? Little has been said about them

They are a candidate to leave the fleet and will likely be replaced on TA routes by 763's. In the meantime they may do hub to hub or EWR/IAD-west coast but in 3-5 years they will probably be gone. If memory serves me correct they are the least efficient TA aircraft of their fleet and are costly to operate.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 4):
So a total of 26 767's! I am so surprised as most times I have flown CO, I was on a 767. And I have flown the often. UA has about 44 right? Delta seems like they are the premier 767 airline. Maybe AA?

CO has been notorious for maximizing fleet utilization. They have accomplished quite a bit with their relatively small International fleet.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4206 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):

They are a candidate to leave the fleet and will likely be replaced on TA routes by 763's. In the meantime they may do hub to hub or EWR/IAD-west coast but in 3-5 years they will probably be gone. If memory serves me correct they are the least efficient TA aircraft of their fleet and are costly to operate

And dump 10 year old planes? I think they will find use for them. The 762s have triple 7 interiors and PTVs both cabins as well as incredible range. Perfect for long thin routes with a large premium cabin. I wouldn't be surprised if the 762s are converted to 3 class. The new UA should really look at this carefully.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9818 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4184 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised if the 762s are converted to 3 class. The new UA should really look at this carefully.

3 class on a 762 would be a strange configuration. 5 x 26 x 110 would be a bit odd and I don't think UA has any premium demanding routes like that. A few airlines have heavy premium configuration long haul flights such as Air France to oil destinations that nobody would ever want to go to, but that isn't true for airlines in the US.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
3 class on a 762 would be a strange configuration. 5 x 26 x 110 would be a bit odd and I don't think UA has any premium demanding routes like that. A few airlines have heavy premium configuration long haul flights such as Air France to oil destinations that nobody would ever want to go to, but that isn't true for airlines in the US.

What about Newark and Dulles to Africa or certain destinations in South America not currently served? (Santiago, Montevideo, Recife, etc?)



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4094 times:
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Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 14):
What about Newark and Dulles to Africa or certain destinations in South America not currently served? (Santiago, Montevideo, Recife, etc?)

IIRC, UA used to fly IAD-MVD. I suspect a 763 might have been too much airplane for the route.

A 762 might be the key -- maybe with a tag to YOW (capital to capital to capital). I could see BSB and SCL operating this way also -- passengers above and chock full of LD-2s below.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 15):
A 762 might be the key -- maybe with a tag to YOW (capital to capital to capital). I could see BSB and SCL operating this way also -- passengers above and chock full of LD-2s below.

Exactly. Now all UA has to do is think outside the box and make it happen. I could also envision a few other routes going to 762s:

ORD-GIG/GRU/WAW/MAD
LAX/SFO-GUM (this has already been discussed as the 762 is the perfect aircraft in the fleet for it.)
IAH/EWR/IAD-GIG/SCL/GRU/BSB/MVD

And UA is painting the new titles on these 762s as fast as the other fleet types. No sign at this time that they have any interest in retiring or storing them. Only CO has said this when the fuel prices spiked back in 2008 and yet they had no other alternatives because they were already short on widebody ranged aircraft.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3884 times:
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Quoting CODC10 (Reply 1):
there is no guidance as to whether a 3 class cabin will be retained on all or some longhaulaircraft. I'm 100% confident that F will stay, but it is true that not every market demands the service.

Here's an oddity.

Over on SeatExpert.com, they show an AA 762 with a *three-class* configuration.
While this has nothing to do with CO's 762s, it's worth a look.

http://seatexpert.com/seatmap/65/Ame...ines_Boeing_767-200_(Three_class)/

I'm guess that the only real difference between Business and First on these planes is the seat pitch (the seats look the same).

AA 762 F Class chair

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Photo © Joseph K.K. Lee


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Photo © Matthew Lee - Contrails Aviation Photography



User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8769 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
3 class on a 762 would be a strange configuration. 5 x 26 x 110 would be a bit odd and I don't think UA has any premium demanding routes like that.

Middle East from IAD might fit the bill.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3678 times:
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They actually need to add EWR to GRU/GIG as they did in the past. Otherwise they are just handing it all to DL and AA from the NY area- or leave it for TAM.


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
While this has nothing to do with CO's 762s, it's worth a look.

I'm trying to figure out how a single seat can be both "Good" and "Beware"



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
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Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 20):
I'm trying to figure out how a single seat can be both "Good" and "Beware"


Um. What's your context?

You're talking about the seating diagram, yes?


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 21):
Um. What's your context?

You're talking about the seating diagram, yes?

Yes. Several of the seats are marked with the back half of the seat as the green that represents "good" and the front half the yellow for "beware." This is most evident in the business cabin.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
I'm guess that the only real difference between Business and First on these planes is the seat pitch (the seats look the same).


They're not at all. They have the same pattern, but F is a fully-flat bed that is configured xx-x-xx, whereas J is xx-xx-xx. F is the same International Flagship F seat that was on the 763 before the went 2-class a few years ago.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
3 class on a 762 would be a strange configuration. 5 x 26 x 110 would be a bit odd and I don't think UA has any premium demanding routes like that.

UA used to have 3-class 762s that were retired and replaced by p.s. 757s. The 3 class 762s were also used on some other premium transcon such as California to BOS.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
Over on SeatExpert.com, they show an AA 762 with a *three-class* configuration.
While this has nothing to do with CO's 762s, it's worth a look.

Those are mostly domestic aircraft that AA operates LAX/SFO-JFK. UA's 3-class 762s were similar.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 15):
IIRC, UA used to fly IAD-MVD. I suspect a 763 might have been too much airplane for the route.

A 762 might be the key

The big problem with the 762 is that it burns almost as much fuel per trip as a 763. The number of seats may be better suited to a specific route but it has a higher fuel CASM than the 763 or any other widebody and it is far behind the 777. I suspect the 762s will be retired when the 787s are delivered and sooner if oil stays over $100 per barrel. The 762 will probably be restricted to relatively short international flights where it does not spend too much of the day in the air.


25 CONTACTDEPARTUR : On the subject of United's B767-300ERS, does anyone know if the coach interiors will be ugraded? For example retro fitting the interiors with 777 styl
26 robo65 : CO already has EWR/GRU service with 767-200. To get back to previous schedules they would just have to add EWR/GIG.
27 Longhornmaniac : It basically means they're a good seat, with positives over other seats, but they come with some cautions/warnings. For example, an exit row window m
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