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DL HND Flights To Change To 777-200ER  
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15481 times:

Delta is changing HND flights from 747-400 to 777-200ER

Routing will be DTW-HND-LAX-HND-DTW daily on 777-200ER. Beginning May 31 from DTW.

I personally consider this to be an upgrade, as the product on their 777 is way better. I just hope it stays this way.

Source: As per GDS

[Edited 2011-03-07 09:42:27 by SA7700]

164 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15451 times:

Yes this was reported in one of the other threads. To be honest, no real surprise.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5731 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15126 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Thread starter):
I personally consider this to be an upgrade, as the product on their 777 is way better.

I understand it's an onboard product upgrade, but going from 403 seats to 268 is quite a substantial downgrade in capacity.

Not to mention the purely emotional preference of all planes being 747's.....


User currently onlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14635 times:

Wait, when did they start the HND service? This didn't take long at all, did it?

So I guess this will take the Delta B77E into LAX in the daytime also, which is fine for me personally as it's one of the few DL subfleets I haven't photographed yet. 

[Edited 2011-03-06 06:43:46]

[Edited 2011-03-06 06:45:24]

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10655 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14585 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
I understand it's an onboard product upgrade, but going from 403 seats to 268 is quite a substantial downgrade in capacity.

Business seems to be very bad then to justify such a massive downgrade. Where will Delta place the 744s now, AMS for the summer perhaps? I hope to see one in FRA though I guess chances are low.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9295 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14443 times:

Quoting na (Reply 4):
Where will Delta place the 744s now, AMS for the summer perhaps?

DTW-AMS will have a 47 flight(but that got nothing to do with HND...been loaded for a while)

my guess is ATL-NRT and or DTW-ICN. I'm not sure if DL will have to upgrade one or two routes but the 777s coming out of mods are already spoken for(ATL-PVG,DTW-PEK, plus DTW-ICN/HKG will go to 4x weekly during the next month or two and then HKG will go 5w and ICN daily.)



yep.
User currently onlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14407 times:

Quoting na (Reply 4):
Where will Delta place the 744s now, AMS for the summer perhaps? I hope to see one in FRA though I guess chances are low.

My guess is Asia to replace the 777 routes where those planes were taken from.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14315 times:

exactly how i predicted this would end up

Delta lying to DOT by having vapor promise of largest capacity equipment in order to win the route authority over, then IMMEDIATELY down-gauge to match actual market demand

there's no "good faith" effort here to attempt to operate initially said aircraft ..... just pure games to beat out others who were more honest in their seat estimates

and don't pretend to think market conditions have changed SO MUCH and SO ABRUPTLY between last year and this year that Delta couldn't accurately forecast (if they can master week-by-week yield management, they certainly can do this too)


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9295 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14255 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):

Delta lying to DOT by having vapor promise of largest capacity equipment in order to win the route authority over, then IMMEDIATELY down-gauge to match actual market demand

Who lied? go to LAX and see what the HND flight today is on. Do the same for DTW....you will quickly find out it is 747s. That is all DL said they would do, They never said we will keep HND on the 747 forever and ever to keep the people that can't pick up that the HND slots suck, no one flying to the main land is making any money and that they are upset because "there" airline got left out.

If you look at it from the DOTs point of view they get 4 slots to give out the japan side has given its 4 out, 2 to each carrier and the US side wants as many carriers as they can get into the market. Giving UA a slot would only decrease the carriers in the market. (remember UA has 2 slots, LAX-HND and HNL-HND)



yep.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14230 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):
If you look at it from the DOTs point of view they get 4 slots to give out the japan side has given its 4 out, 2 to each carrier and the US side wants as many carriers as they can get into the market. Giving UA a slot would only decrease the carriers in the market. (remember UA has 2 slots, LAX-HND and HNL-HND)

All quite true, and those are the grounds on which DoT should have awarded the routes to Delta - not this capacity hocus pocus. I'd make the same argument about any DoT proceeding - unless a carrier has only one airplane capable of flying the route (say ATL-JNB), it's dumb to award the flight based on capacity because carriers should and do change aircraft gauge all the time. That's good business, and it was dumb business to use the 744 to HND at any point.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9295 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14172 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
That's good business, and it was dumb business to use the 744 to HND at any point.

I agree. IMHO if a 757 could fly the routes it would be a good fit   757-232XLR anyone?  

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):

All quite true, and those are the grounds on which DoT should have awarded the routes to Delta

I believe that is the big reason they did it. They made sure the two largest O/D bases were done on US airlines (LAX and NYC) and then they wanted to give one more slot to DL. My bet is DL really wishes they would have gotten HNL though.



yep.
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 13767 times:

Smart move by Delta and congrats to them. If AA could downgrade JFK-HND to a smaller aircraft they would do it in a heartbeat.

User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 13708 times:
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The 777 fleet already had slack built into it for the summer season, so Delta was likely planning this move for a while. It is what pretty much everyone expected, after all. The following moves were all already loaded for Summer 2011.

DTW-PVG goes from 777 to 744
ATL-LOS goes from 777 to 332
DTW-NGO returns to 744 after temporarily being 777
ATL-NRT is all 77L

These changes, along with the completion of the lie-flat mods (which are currently being done 2 at a time), provide the needed capacity increases to allow HND to go 777 and DTW-PEK to launch.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 13646 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):
They never said we will keep HND on the 747 forever

technically they never said, but they're supposed to have a "good faith" effort to maintain their designated equipment unless market conditions deteriorate significantly to warrant an equipment change

running a flight for barely a few weeks before changing the plane is definitely pre-planned, not some last minute knee-jerk reaction to bookings

that's the stupidity of DOT by not having a clause that actually binds carriers to their vague promises and reserving the right to rescind route authority if the good faith is violated IMMEDIATELY

otherwise anyone could claim they'll lease the A380 just for the HND route, then immediately change to 767-200ER citing "difficult conditions" ..... my a$$


User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13581 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):
Delta lying to DOT by having vapor promise of largest capacity equipment in order to win the route authority over, then IMMEDIATELY down-gauge to match actual market demand

there's no "good faith" effort here to attempt to operate initially said aircraft ..... just pure games to beat out others who were more honest in their seat estimates

and don't pretend to think market conditions have changed SO MUCH and SO ABRUPTLY between last year and this year that Delta couldn't accurately forecast (if they can master week-by-week yield management, they certainly can do this too)

I guess Delta didn't notice your pronouncement the other day that Japan is now irrelevant.

[Edited 2011-03-06 08:46:09]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17365 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13296 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Smart move by Delta and congrats to them. If AA could downgrade JFK-HND to a smaller aircraft they would do it in a heartbeat.

Smart move would have been to lose the award . Any carrier that didn't win HND (except HA, who is probably prininting money) dodged a bullet; two daily empty 744s at $110/oil? Nightmare.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2333 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12936 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Smart move by Delta and congrats to them. If AA could downgrade JFK-HND to a smaller aircraft they would do it in a heartbeat.

Would they? One thing AA has that DL does not, is full codeshare/JV/ATI with JL. The 772 is the right plane for the market. It links two of the largest financial cities in the world. Remember that bigger, is not always better. And sending two 744s from DTW, and LAX (Where NH operates also) was an overkill. A better downgrade would be a nice DL 763 LAX-HND.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12433 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 13):
technically they never said, but they're supposed to have a "good faith" effort to maintain their designated equipment unless market conditions deteriorate significantly to warrant an equipment change

Do you think that oil at over $100 bbl, qualifies as "market conditions" deteriorating?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 12356 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):

If you look at it from the DOTs point of view they get 4 slots to give out the japan side has given its 4 out, 2 to each carrier and the US side wants as many carriers as they can get into the market. Giving UA a slot would only decrease the carriers in the market. (remember UA has 2 slots, LAX-HND and HNL-HND)

Just because UA and NH have ATI and codeshare doesn't mean to me that UA has any slots. If UA actually had the slots, they would be on UA metal. As it turns out, UA screwed themselves by only bidding on SFO-HND and not adding LAX-HND as an insurance package. Had they done this, they would have easily been awarded LAX-HND and given the size of their LAX operation compared to DL, they would have done better with it.

As it stands right now, the only US carriers with HND slots are DL, AA, and HA. UA has zero slots, period.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11957 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Smart move would have been to lose the award . Any carrier that didn't win HND (except HA, who is probably prininting money) dodged a bullet; two daily empty 744s at $110/oil? Nightmare.[/quote
]I am glad you are not running things at Delta if you wouldn't do the obvious prudent thing.
[quote=mayor,reply=17]Do you think that oil at over $100 bbl, qualifies as "market conditions" deteriorating?

I guess he thinks the oil situation has improved or he hasn't filled up his car lately.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11910 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 10):
My bet is DL really wishes they would have gotten HNL though.

Yeah - I think DL's application choices are interesting and under-explored. I've said before that if DL had applied for JFK, they'd have gotten JFK and AA would have gotten LAX. Both probably would have done better that way, but DL wouldn't have been able to use HND as part of its LAX strategy.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 13):
that's the stupidity of DOT by not having a clause that actually binds carriers to their vague promises and reserving the right to rescind route authority if the good faith is violated IMMEDIATELY

How exactly did DL act in bad faith? Every application states the proposed equipment, and DL started the route on the aircraft it said it would use.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1010 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11761 times:

Did United really want to get into HND considering the horrible times? I think UA actually is SAVING face by maintaining their NRT ops and allowing a Star partner (ANA) to do the HND flying.


xx
User currently offlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11723 times:

This is one smart move for DL. I never actually thought that they could pull off twice daily flights to HND given Graveyard Shift hours at HND. I could understand having either an arrival or departure at that time of day but not both. Graveyard Shift operations tend not to be economically viable as seen by several US carriers reduce eastbound Red Eye flights in the US when economic conditions tumbled this past decade. What needs to be done is that DL, AA, and HA need to lobby the US Government to put pressure on the Japanese to amend their international operations schedule at HND to that US carriers have some more economically viable daytime slots.


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11445 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):
(remember UA has 2 slots, LAX-HND and HNL-HND)

How does UA have 2 slots?

I thought the 4 went to Hawaiian, American, and Delta x2.


User currently onlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11429 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 23):
How does UA have 2 slots?

I thought the 4 went to Hawaiian, American, and Delta x2.

Via the joint venture. Just because ANA is operating those flights, United has an equal stake in regards to scheduling, fares, aircraft selection, revenue, etc.

To United/ANA from a financial perspective, there is no difference in who is operating that flight.


25 LAXintl : Not yet -- The UA/NH JV does not come into force until April 1st. So as of today (and during the HND route selection process), United and ANA's route
26 LAXtoATL : True, but DOT said they were considering the alliances. The decision wasn't made in a bubble. And as you point out, come April UA will have HND slots
27 bohica : Hindsight being 20/20, the real winner of the HND slot giveaway is United. Both arrival and departure times are lousy in HND. UA is better off code s
28 AADC10 : I think the poor loads to HND caught most by surprise. Demand for the close in HND was anticipated to be higher but the off hour schedule times was n
29 MSPNWA : So true. It's a form of bait-and-switch. I just wish the government would grow some teeth and require the airlines to actually deliver on what they p
30 Cubsrule : DL did deliver on what it promised. DL promised to start the routes on 744s. DL started the routes on 744s.
31 MSPNWA : That's what the official story will say, but everybody knows that the reality was dishonesty about what and when. When the DOT awarded the LAX-HND ro
32 MaverickM11 : The planes are empty and the fares are junk; oil wouldn't have turned the situation one way or another really.
33 Cubsrule : I don't see how DL's application was untruthful. You act like DL knew that DoT would make the awards based on capacity, and that's just silly. How wo
34 MaverickM11 : I think everyone knew they'd apply with their largest aircraft and then downgrad it asap. AA probably would have done the same if they had 744s.
35 Cubsrule : Based on what? Their (nonexistent) track record of applying for Brasil, Colombia and Argentina frequencies with 772s and 744s and downgrading asap?
36 MaverickM11 : I wasn't even going to get into that, but you're right there. Their Brazil/Colombia/Argentina/etc applications were comical to say the least. But mor
37 Cubsrule : Maybe - but too large aircraft wasn't one of the reasons they were comical.
38 brilondon : The only thing that is downgraded is the amount of seats available on the 777. I find that the DL777 to be far superior to their B747's. I really did
39 MSPNWA : Let's flip it around. How can we say it was a truthful application? They didn't start on time. The aircraft gauge will be valid for only 3+ months. T
40 Cubsrule : Go back and read the application. When did they say they would start?
41 keagkid101 : Smart move by DL, according to seat maps (not always reliable, but gives a good impression), the flights from both LAX and DTW usually depart with mor
42 incitatus : A technically correct and carefully constructed statement for sure.
43 MSYtristar : I don't know about you guys but I'm hoping for a couple of 744 repositioning flights in the U.S once the planes land in DTW and LAX for the final time
44 Cubsrule : Maybe - but where else has DL applied with a large aircraft just to win the award and then quickly downgraded?
45 anonms : AA didn't start on time either. Can't really comment on the downgauging, but I'm fairly positive that, were AA in DL's position, they woud've done th
46 LAXtoATL : This isn't true. Both DL & AA asked DOT for a later start date than was originally awarded. The DOT granted them new start dates and both airline
47 Post contains images deltal1011man : Oh I'm sorry....I forgot Los frickin Angles is a big nothing compared to NYC. I didn't say it didn't, I'm just saying AA is likely, very very likely,
48 Cubsrule : With what type did US apply for PHL-PEK? The rumours about where those aircraft would come from and what they would be were a dime a dozen (343s from
49 LAXtoATL : I am basically guessing here, but I don't believe there was much if any prediction for an increase in demand between Tokyo and the U.S. What I believ
50 anonms : Oh, I'm completely aware of that. I forgot that sarcastic tones of voice don't translate into text well during my use of MSPNWA's phrasing.
51 gigneil : Yes, as does anyone with basic cognitive functions. Have they done a bunch of that since having 744s available? Its whatever they're doing aircraft w
52 deltal1011man : errr Cubs i believe they said 343s and if they couldn't find the 343s it would be 332s.
53 mcdu : DL making promises they can't keep when it comes to route authority? This is absolutely of no surprise. They made grandiose promises to get the awards
54 deltal1011man : Please give us proof that Delta broke any promises.....
55 LAXtoATL : Exactly what grandiose promises did they make? I missed them entirely. And what promises did they make that they backed away from almost immediately?
56 ah414211 : From an ATW Online Article: "DOT was swayed in large part by the fact that DL said it will use 747-400s on its LAX-Haneda service, which "would inject
57 mayor : And do YOU have the actual story from the DOT of the whys and wherefores of this route application? Probably not and then you're just as guilty as an
58 MSPNWA : The DOT requirement was a start by January 29th, 2011. And that's where I get frustrated with the DOT. They're supposed to be "for the people", but t
59 seabosdca : Surprised it's not the A332. DTW-HND would be on the edge of the A332's range, but not beyond it, especially with the lousy loads the flight's been se
60 LAXtoATL : I hate to single you out because you definitely aren't the only one saying this, but what exactly is shady? Whose interest does it serve to fly a bun
61 mayor : "Who Knows?" Well I don't and certainly you don't. The fact is, that DL is operating the flight with the a/c they said they would. Really doesn't mak
62 ah414211 : I agree completely that it's a smart business move on Delta's part, I'm just pointing out that they used the 747 as a selling point to help them get
63 ktachiya : It seems like the North American routes out of HND are a disaster. JFK, DTW, LAX on American carriers not generating as many pax as was anticipated. I
64 deltal1011man : Not really, they started with 47s, that is all they said they would do. ugh. Once again. NO ONE NOT A SINGLE CARRIER asked for DL or AAs slots. The D
65 bobnwa : What promises would those be?
66 mogandoCI : Through the previous exercises of Chinese and Haneda route authorities, we know that the DOT tends to favor more capacity over connecting the cities
67 Cubsrule : How could DL have known before the fact that use of the 744 would be "such a selling point?" And how did DL know this and UA - which applied for SFOH
68 LAXtoATL : Well, to be precise UA didn't want them. HA didn't want mainland-HND, but they did say if the DOT would allow them to move them to HNL-HND they would
69 slcdeltarumd11 : One is an upgrade and one is a downgrade.....totally different. One airline had better than expecting bookings and decided to upgrade which is fine a
70 Cubsrule : You've lost me. The 763 is smaller by at least 24 seats.
71 goldenstate : You've already been asked this, but I will simply add that I am also interested in knowing which specific rounds you are referring to when you say th
72 LAXtoATL : Actually both are upgrades. One was a downguage. However, how is upguage and downguage totally different? They go hand in hand. There is a clear hypo
73 mogandoCI : according to your definition, if airline A flies a 1-weekly RJ and airline B flies 10x daily 777 that's also not a monopoly if you have ever looked a
74 mogandoCI : well deserved for DL for their "honesty". maybe someone at the crime capital of America can go cry me a river.
75 deltal1011man : Not 100% true. HA said they would be happy to fly extra HNL-HND flights if DL kept delaying the flights. They didn't ask for the slots, the DOT would
76 mayor : LA? DC? Miami?......................................why don't you just spell it out for us instead of these supposedly clever little hints? We all kn
77 Post contains images FSDan : Since when does "most capacity" equal "monopoly"? By that logic, UA has a monopoly on LAX-SFO... And I assume that you think Detroit is the crime cap
78 Coronado : I wonder what will be said when the 787 is finally in service, will any airline switching a 777 or a 747 over to a 787 be considered guilty of downgra
79 Cubsrule : Also wrong, which probably further demonstrates the absurdity of the whole argument.
80 Post contains links goldenstate : I never suggested that at all. You asserted that DOT was rewarding a DL "monopoly"--not an oligopoly, not a #1 market position, not a highly concentr
81 incitatus : In Brazil we say something akin to "deceive me once your fault, deceive me twice my fault". If the DoT keeps on placing value on seat count in a serv
82 Post contains images mogandoCI : the SMART part of u comes from thinking LA or DC has the highest crime rate St Louis may be #1 this year, but DTW has consistently had the crown for
83 Cubsrule : DTW is the only city not on the west coast that has consistently sustained service to an airport in Japan other than NRT.
84 mogandoCI : and that was entirely due to the motor industry (one of those weird flights like IAH-DME). Has DTW-KIX been sustained, or more on-again/off-again thr
85 SESGDL : Please, NH, JL, DL, and AA are all struggling, badly, with these HND slots. If you think JL and NH are struggling but that that UA would do well then
86 mcdu : Remember the LAX-GRU battle for the UA slots in Brazil? Delta is establishing a pattern of making route authority promises to get the authority. Then
87 Cubsrule : And ORD-WAW exists entirely for VFR, RDU-LHR exists entirely for big pharma and AUS-SJC exists entirely for the tech industry. What's your point?
88 FSDan : And because of this, there should be no DTW-HND flight? Please explain your logic... I feel like customers transiting through DTW feel quite safe. Le
89 dtw9 : I guess in your world those 350 Japanese firms that have offices and plants in Michigan offer no O and D Traffic. How does Detroit's crime rate play
90 mogandoCI : Getting people to use HND over NRT is entirely the job of the marketing departments and the travel agencies - if average Joe doesn't realize how grea
91 goldenstate : Can you draw a correlation between crime rates and international air traffic O&D? It's still not clear to me how you arrived at the conclusion th
92 RamblinMan : Not with me onboard, unless it's an all-J config! Seriously, the folks who are complaining about this are acting just like the corrupt and whiny Afri
93 LAXtoATL : The DOT proved it when in their award they said that they strongly considered alliances and that the fact that Star and OneWorld would be receving tw
94 Post contains images deltal1011man : ...........huh? What in the HELL are you talking about? Are you kidding me? um....so you expect every single route to be a slam dunk? Ok AA use to fl
95 Post contains images Transpac787 : You do realize that it was the Japanese government that closed HND to transoceanic flights, not the airlines having a mass-migration over to NRT, rig
96 jetblast : Northwest never flew DTW-FUK or DTW-CTS. They flew from PDX. Comparing the failure of PDX routes to the future prospects of a completely different co
97 atrude777 : Delta is already doing that. https://www.delta.com/pet/tokyorewards/dsm/main Alex
98 hnl-jack : HA indicated in its application for the HND route that once they had a sufficient number of A-332 aircraft as well as experience with the type it wou
99 mcdu : Delta changed the start date from the application date. That is they received authority to start on xx date and afterward wanted yy date. They could
100 Cubsrule : Why not? What was preventing them?
101 mogandoCI : the original claim was that passengers *never* experienced HND internationally, which was false. no one was attempting to debate whether HND/NRT was
102 SESGDL : Never was not the right usage of words. What I should've said was "haven't for a long time," but regardless, HND being "reopened" for international f
103 mogandoCI : i mostly agree with you, but the key is that AA/JL and UA/NH provides meaningful connectivity and O&D on both ends, while DL's flights would almo
104 Transpac787 : The implication was obviously there he meant modern travelers. Unless of course we've all begun talking about John Q Traveler of 1961. Myself, and ot
105 SESGDL : AA/JL and UA/NH also have almost no connectivity at HND for their flights. How many flights do you think there are in the middle of the night? Connec
106 Cubsrule : So the logic is "AA/JL and UA/NH are big and DoT should help them get bigger?" How does that make sense?
107 LAXtoATL : Really? I believe the DOT changed the start date not Delta. And I know Delta never promised a start date in their application. Yes they did. And they
108 LAXtoATL : Did they? I didn't remember that being part of their application, but if they did then it was a bad comparison on my part. Now this I know was not pa
109 Cubsrule : Not explicitly, but I think there's a little something to the concern about that award. DL operated it about as little as they possibly could without
110 hnl-jack : The aircraft guage was noted in the application, and while they didn't say "I promise" I would assume that the DOT or anyone else reading the applica
111 FlyASAGuy2005 : This is a government organization. Thye don't operate on promises. If they wanted a/c type to be a factor, they would have made the amount of seats o
112 Post contains images mayor : You DO remember what they say about "assume", don't you?
113 LAXtoATL : Apparently the DOT doesn't either since they haven't made a peep about DL's downguage. For that matter no other airline agrees with your logic since
114 goldenstate : Please list the specific JAL flights you think AA passengers will connect to with a 2215 arrival at HND. I would be interested to know your thoughts
115 hnl-jack : Well, I'm happy to hear you think we're so funny. And believe it or not, I do agree that most airlines sooner or later may change guage of aircraft o
116 AA767400 : One, you can't compare Los Angeles to NYC. NYC is larger in population, and is a larger financial center. And on top of that, DL is not alone on LAX-
117 Cubsrule : What parts of the application "made the 744 an issue?"
118 Transpac787 : To be clear, LAX is the largest Asian O&D market in the United States...
119 MSPNWA : No wonder the airline industry is largely in shambles. As long you don't break any "promises", anything goes. Attempted profits are king. Ethics be da
120 FlyASAGuy2005 : Yes, profits is king. Feelings has nothing to do with it. That wouldn't be the application. That would be the route award...what does that have to do
121 Cubsrule : Where does the application say that in any way distinct from every other application that every other carrier files? And what did they say about the
122 LAXtoATL : DL didn't make the 744 an issue. It is standard practice to list the aircraft you will be using on the route application and Delta did nothing out of
123 MSPNWA : No, that would be the application. The DOT stated in the application summaries that Delta argued that it's capacity advantage of the 747 is a reason
124 Cubsrule : But again, so what? DL could have applied with the 772 and argued truthfully that it was using the highest capacity airplane.
125 MSPNWA : So what? In a 777 vs 777 battle, does DL still win LAX-HND now that their significant capacity argument is nearly obsolete? That is a serious questio
126 Cubsrule : What was this "significant capacity argument?" What words did Delta use?
127 Post contains links MSPNWA : I'll link to the DOT summary directly: PDF Link here
128 dtw9 : Here's the part I'm interested in, The scheduled operations will also be subject to the following conditions: (1) U.S. operations at Haneda will be pe
129 Cubsrule : How is the "significant capacity" argument in any way limited to the 744? A DL 772 would also have been "significant capacity."
130 AA767400 : Crystal. But in my opinion, the overcapacity on the route, makes NYC - Tokyo more viable. DL's LAX slot would have worked much better out of Hawaii.
131 SESGDL : This statistic is completely false. It's tantamount to saying Dallas is a larger market to Europe than Boston. While Dallas is a larger overall marke
132 AA767400 : Not a statistic. LAX is larger, and I agreed with you on that in post # 130. But, how the heck would you know the overall demand on HND-LAX is larger
133 OA412 : I must say that you often have very interesting insights and info into the workings of the indutrsy, but, and with all due respect, constantly critic
134 carpethead : Totally wrong. While JL's SFO-HND flight arrives too late for connections. Its HND-SFO flight can have connections from any number of domestic destin
135 MSPNWA : With the 777 instead: Would Delta have been able to state "63% more capacity" in it's response to AA's LAX bid? No. Could DL state "maximize service
136 SESGDL : I can assure you that HND also has higher O&D to LAX than NYC. Up until now the Tokyo market as a whole had far greater demand to LAX than NYC, I
137 OA412 : And? When responding to competing applications, airlines always try to overstate the benefits of their application while highlighting the weaknesses
138 hnl-jack : 1 The following is direct quotes from DL's application,which you indicate DL didn't make an issue. "Delta asserts that, by use of its B747 aircraft, i
139 SESGDL : Stating what aircraft they will be using and "making an issue" out of using larger equipment are two entirely different things. When airlines make co
140 anonms : And now it's clear that the demand is not there, therefore the capacity is not needed. If the DOT had a problem, they'd do something about it. If AA
141 mcdu : You can call it what you want. Delta conducted a campaign of " bait and switch " in their application. This was also the case in other applications m
142 bobnwa : What other applications would those be? Please be specific.
143 mcdu : LAX to GRU ring a bell?
144 LAXtoATL : You better run and tell this to the DOT so they can pull the routes and make sure they never award Delta another route!
145 bobnwa : Please explain what Bait and switch tactic was used in that application. I can't find any.
146 Cubsrule : While it's difficult to prove, there's certainly a credible argument that DL had no intention of operating the route long-term and was just warehousi
147 deltal1011man : No I understand how LHR slots work, you missed my point. How about this, IAD-GIG, UA leased the rights to US, that is a bait and switch, UAL should b
148 mogandoCI : Thank you ! At least someone else can see through the smoke screen. AA might have won LAX instead, thus giving NYC to CO. And IIRC, AA's LAX connecti
149 Cubsrule : What does that have to do with LAX-HND or DTW-HND? Why not? It's still true.
150 papatango : Let's move on people the routes have been awarded and will not be changed because of an aircraft swap. It's a mute point to speculate who didn't win
151 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : If some of you REALLY have a problem with how things went down, write your government officials.
152 FSDan : That's the most valid point you have brought up. Still, I believe the DOT said they strongly considered the competitive landscape when making these a
153 DFWEagle : DL seems to be taking a lot of criticism here but if people have a problem with what has happened, then they should be blaming the DOT rather than Del
154 YULWinterSkies : Yes, I still fail to see why HND is more attractive than NRT. I know it is much closer to Tokyo, but what else? Timings are not ideal, it's pure o&am
155 bobnwa : Delta ought to be congratulated for bring astute enough to get these two route awards which someday may turn into a valuable resource.
156 Post contains images toobz : Very well said DFW. DL was not in contract to use ANY type of aircraft. If the DOT is ok with this so should everyone else. 777 is an upgrade in my o
157 deltal1011man : No its not, lol its easy to prove DL wanted to give LAX a try first. Nothing would have changed had they went after the two(unused) frequencies for D
158 Cubsrule : Except for the fact that in August, 2008 when they applied for the frequencies, the merger hadn't yet been approved by DoJ or closed. Both DoJ approv
159 mogandoCI : Because if DOT ever had such an enforced-equipment clause, airlines would accuse them of not providing flexibility to react to market conditions. Now
160 Cubsrule : How does switching from far too much capacity to slightly too much capacity "jack yields?"
161 jetlanta : Actually, your premise is completely wrong. The DOT is not supposed to supposed to be "for the people". The DOT has multiple roles, one of which is t
162 mayor : The poor time slots are hardly DL's (or any other airline's) fault. What "loopholes" are you talking about? I'm not fluent in gibberish, so you'll ha
163 FlyASAGuy2005 : VERY well said. I would have to disagree. HND requires long term commitment. With the right equipment and timing, I think the possibilities are endle
164 SR117 : Haneda is awesome... seriously. Here's one example: I arrived at Narita last week and was headed to Yokohama, there's a special deal for foreigners w
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