9LFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 174 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5365 times:
We all know Independence Air came at the wrong time, with the wrong equipment, and was killed by their rapid expansion and poor management. Okay, so here's the question, if Indy Air would have came at a proper time with the economy booming and maybe with better LCC equipment, say 737s instead of A319s and E190s instead of CRJs. Where do you think they'd be today? What could have saved Independence from their demise?
Also on another topic as well, I am a big collector of Indy Air memorabilia. If anyone has anything or knows where I could find anything, shoot me a PM.
My opinions do not represent the opinions of my company. They are solely the opinion of the poster.
kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3890 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5333 times:
I don't know how you figue a 737 to be better LCC equipment than a 319. E190 instead of CRJ would have wrecked most of their route network.
They could have saved themselves from demise THEN with CRJ's and a319 had they raised their fares in most markets and properly groomed their schedules. You don't need to offer $39 fares on CRW-IAD when $100 would still be seen as a great deal.
0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4939 times:
Quoting 9LFlyGuy (Thread starter): Okay, so here's the question, if Indy Air would have came at a proper time with the economy booming and maybe with better LCC equipment, say 737s instead of A319s and E190s instead of CRJs. Where do you think they'd be today? What could have saved Independence from their demise?
The A319 was not the issue... the CRJ200 was. If they would have been able to speed up delivery of the A319s from day 1 (not after all of the cash was pretty much gone) and started phasing out the CRJ200s they could have lasted a bit longer (and may still be around today).
You CANNOT operate a low fare carrier with 50 seat jets. You will GO BANKRUPT! Period!
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
ludavid777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4835 times:
Quoting 9LFlyGuy (Thread starter): Also on another topic as well, I am a big collector of Indy Air memorabilia. If anyone has anything or knows where I could find anything, shoot me a PM.
I was a flight attendant for Independence Air and have a few dupes of certain things. I even have Flyi wine! lol It probably tastes like vinegar by now haha but the bright blue wine bottle is what you really care about anyway.
I have some timetables, safety cards, inflight stuff, even a second inflight manual somewhere in my collection.
RamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4744 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 8): So, basically, you're asking if Independence Air weren't Independence Air, where would they be? I dunno, I mean, if Independence Air were Southwest they'd be doing pretty well for themselves...
My thoughts exactly, you've asked too many "what-ifs." What if UA had gone belly-up in their own bankruptcy, Indy would have been in a good position to quickly capture the IAD market. What if the price of fuel had crashed instead of continuing to climb, and the poor economics of the CRJ no longer mattered?
It is what it is, we'll never know what might have happened if you change one variable, let alone 4.
The A319 came too late in the process to give the airline flexibility. Had they ordered 737s on the same timeline - the airline would have failed the same way it did. There is no B737/A319 question about their ability to survive - just that they waited far to long to get something other than the 50 seater into place.
nws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
As a DH employee it sucked to watch it all go down.
We should've negotiated with UA and continued flying as United Express. We had way too many CRJs to start FLYi, and scheduled them nonstop through our IAD hub. $29 fares were absurd and most employees knew we were not making money.
It would've been better to let DH fail and start a new carrier with the A319s.
metjetceo From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4516 times:
I used to go to IAD from EWR each week and in a 30 minute flight always got a full beverage service, a hot towel and a mint when I got off the plane.
If playing what if...I think the market of IAD could have worked or could have been an issue as its close enough to BWI to be a problem for Air Tran and Southwest. Anyhow, I think larger aircraft would work if they a) reduced frequency to the cities the flew too, b) offered it as point to point without connections at IAD c) maintained some of their 3rd party contracts with the majors.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23879 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4369 times:
Quoting n9801f (Reply 15): However there were other fundamental issues - for instance Independence Air couldn't fill their bigger, lower seat-mile cost planes very well.
Well, they did a poor job filling the 319s on their 319 routes. When they put the 319s on CRJ routes - routes they had started with CRJs and then used the 319s to reduce frequency and/or add capacity, they did a much better job of filling them. To me, that suggests that there were things that could have worked - 4 319s rather than 10 CRJs on IAD-CLT would probably have worked better from the start, but they didn't have the 319s at the start.
DH did do some things right. Their inflight product is similar to what people praise B6 and F9 for today. IAD was probably as good a hub as any. But the CRJs were very, very wrong (as was their horrendous service on the ground, FWIW).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5313 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4175 times:
Quoting nws2002 (Reply 12): We should've negotiated with UA and continued flying as United Express.
I agree, and when I heard that Independence was coming, I had a bit of a gut feeling that it was going to be interesting.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16): Their inflight product is similar to what people praise B6 and F9 for today. IAD was probably as good a hub as any.
They did indeed have a great product. But, that product was great because of the enthusiasm of the employees. I met several of the crews in SEA, when they flew the 319 here. They were very fun, and so outgoing.
Quoting 9LFlyGuy (Thread starter): Where do you think they'd be today? What could have saved Independence from their demise?
I think they would have had a fighting chance, if they had gotten better control of their own management. There were several areas they could have crunched. They also could have streamlined several routes that were hurting them. As most have mentioned, they needed those 319's really bad. The west coast routes were filling up, and I was shocked to see how full the SEA flights were getting.
So in short, more time, and more 319's. I think Indy would have survived.
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 1): You don't need to offer $39 fares on CRW-IAD when $100 would still be seen as a great deal.
Which brings up a great point. Whoever was in revenue management, needed a swift kick in the butt. Sure, you will fill your seats with those kinds of fares.... But, you will lose money with that kind of fare. I think their capacity control team was out of whack as well. I agree with someone above. They should have put most of those 319's on the dense CRJ routes, and started phasing them out faster. Time was just not on their side.
Quoting nws2002 (Reply 12): As a DH employee it sucked to watch it all go down.
Not even a DH employee, but yes, it was terrible to watch it all go down. Such a great group of employees. Indy lost more than just passengers, they lost some great talent.
izbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2387 times:
Simply put, there just wasn't enough demand from IAD for both the IndyAir product and United, even at rock bottom prices. Outside of Lansing, I don't believe that IndyAir tried any route that hadn't already been operated by UA, at least for the CRJ routes. It was overkill. A fair amount of early morning Indy flights went out with 1-10 passengers and some routes had those passenger counts all day long. When they scaled back the CRJ operation later, it was counter to their original idea of keeping the birds in the air in order to offset their high operating costs. A plain disaster.
Even the A319's weren't that full. Stuff to Florida was abysmal at times, especially RSW. Some West Coast stuff did alright but there was never a time where they had 90%+ load factors for an extended period with the Airbus operation.
The whole scheme was a very, very bad idea.
Didn't Skybus bust in a shorter period simply because it had less money to start with?