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Ilfc Cancels A380 Order And Orders 100 NEOs  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 22482 times:

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...aft-from-airbus-and-boeing-004.htm

The memorandum of understanding with Airbus includes 75 A320NEO and 25 A321NEO, 60 of which will be powered by the Pratt&Whitney PurePower PW1100G engine beginning in 2016. This new agreement with Airbus will replace ILFC's prior commitment for ten A380s.

Sad day, but it seems they found no customer to lease them to.

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 22438 times:

A good day for Boeing.

Not entirely unexpected I guess, but puts to rest the rumours that the VN birds were ILFC leases, or that BA would take some early to get them in time for the 2012 olympics. Presumably this opens up some earlier slots for A380s on the line - anyone wanna guess who is going to step in and take them? EK perhaps? QR?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 22428 times:

No doubt about it - bad news for the A380.Right now it seems to be too much of an aircraft for the present economic climate.

User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 22277 times:

As much as I like to see more A380's in the sky a trade between 10 A380s and 100 A320NEO's / A321NEO's is not a bad development for Airbus. Even more so as most people realized that this ILFC order was going to be canceled anyway.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9720 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 22124 times:

Quoting wolbo (Reply 3):
As much as I like to see more A380's in the sky a trade between 10 A380s and 100 A320NEO's / A321NEO's is not a bad development for Airbus. Even more so as most people realized that this ILFC order was going to be canceled anyway.

I totally agree with you on this. It's bad that the A380 order is cancelled but on the other hand it is swapped for 100 A320NEO models which is good too.

A388


User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21927 times:

At list prices, Airbus loses $3.75 billion worth of A380 sales, but gains $8.87 billion in A320 sales...

Sad to see some A380's cancelled, but those spots will IMO quickly be taken by someone else, and an overall gain of $5.1 billion is nothing to sulk about.


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21740 times:

G´day

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
Presumably this opens up some earlier slots for A380s on the line

To my knowledge no production slots have been allocated to the ILFC birds, so I doubt earlier delivery positions will become available due to that cancellation.

While most delivery slots for A 380ies this year and next appear to have been allocated, a number of delivery positions in 2013 still seem to be available, allowing some reasonably fast deliveries.

I guess we will know more tomorrow, when Airbus announces the new orders at the Asian airshow   


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21575 times:

Quoting wolbo (Reply 3):
As much as I like to see more A380's in the sky a trade between 10 A380s and 100 A320NEO's / A321NEO's is not a bad development for Airbus
Quoting davs5032 (Reply 5):
At list prices, Airbus loses $3.75 billion worth of A380 sales, but gains $8.87 billion in A320 sales...

My thoughts too.
Maybe the theme of the topic should be slightly altered?


User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21470 times:

Here's the press release from Airbus:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...-100-a320neo-family-aircraft/home/


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5449 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21344 times:

The NEO keeps on rollin'.... That's more of a story in a sense than a cancellation of A380's. Not a surprise, but certainly a stronger endorsement of the NEO than an indictment of the A380.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21203 times:

Perhaps

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
The NEO keeps on rollin'.... That's more of a story in a sense than a cancellation of A380's. Not a surprise, but certainly a stronger endorsement of the NEO than an indictment of the A380.

Perhaps someone could change the thread title to "ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo"?


User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21165 times:

Airlines need a few 380s, and likely a lot less 748s. In a way not unexpected. I see the two planes soldiering on for another 20 years or so, each with some inexpensive improvements. In both cases a 'gift' to the airlines.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5419 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21114 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
A good day for Boeing.

I don't necessarily agree with you here. Just because Airbus has an order canceled (yet replaced by a "better" order) does not mean it is a good day for their competitor. While it is not good for Airbus for their ROI on their A380 investment, they appear to have managed the loss of the order well (converting it to a new order).

Certainly I am not trying to be harsh or argumentative but I never like how we here always seem to turn discussions about one company into a counter argument for the competitor. I say this all with respect.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5449 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21044 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 10):
Perhaps someone could change the thread title to "ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo"?

It was a bit of a shock to actually read what the OP wrote - I thought I'd clicked the wrong thread.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21045 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
I don't necessarily agree with you here. Just because Airbus has an order canceled (yet replaced by a "better" order) does not mean it is a good day for their competitor. While it is not good for Airbus for their ROI on their A380 investment, they appear to have managed the loss of the order well (converting it to a new order).

Certainly I am not trying to be harsh or argumentative but I never like how we here always seem to turn discussions about one company into a counter argument for the competitor. I say this all with respect.

Tugg

No i was referring to the 748i orders in the other thread - and aluding to the fact that ILFC will now be in the market for some VLAs in the future, having determined that the A380 was not what they needed. A 748i order coming up perhaps? Who knows.

Also anyone canceling anything at a major international airshow is good for the competitor in terms of PR.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21041 times:

Sad but well, not totally unexpected, it didn't really seem to make sense for an airline to lease A380s. Maybe it did when the order was made, and it will again in the future for charters or something, but at the moment the bird is a flagship, why would you lease that ?

Now, about the neo order, we could also say that it was going to happen anyway. The really interesting information is missing and it will stay that way : how much money is involved in the cancellation.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30567 posts, RR: 84
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20889 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Presumably this opens up some earlier slots for A380s on the line - anyone wanna guess who is going to step in and take them?

After ten years, I'd be somewhat surprised if ILFC had any confirmed slots by now considering how new customers appeared to be able to secure early deliveries. This might have hampered ILFC's ability to secure a customer or ILFC found that leasing customers prefer to buy their A380s and then do a sale and leaseback deal as opposed to leasing direct. And after a decade of not being able to place any of their planes while new and existing customers placed A380 orders, ILFC finally accepted that they would never be able to place theirs.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
The really interesting information is missing and it will stay that way : how much money is involved in the cancellation.

The most likely scenario is that all of ILFC's deposits would have been transferred to the A320/A321 order.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5419 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20673 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
No i was referring to the 748i orders in the other thread - and aluding to the fact that ILFC will now be in the market for some VLAs in the future, having determined that the A380 was not what they needed. A 748i order coming up perhaps? Who knows.

Also anyone canceling anything at a major international airshow is good for the competitor in terms of PR.

Point taken. I certainly don't disagree with this. And I appreciate your clarifying it.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20416 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 10):

Perhaps someone could change the thread title to "ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo"?

Better still....."ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo and 33 B738s"...  .

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lfc-orders-33-boeing-737-800s.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20179 times:

I find it interesting that all three US customers for the A380 (ILFC, UPS, FedEX) have now cancelled their orders. I'm still hoping for the day a US airline orders one.

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12390 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20101 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
A good day for Boeing.

Even from the PR perspective, Chris, I have to disagree. I'd say a very good day for Airbus!

They've swapped an order for 10 A380s that would probably never have been delivered, for 100 A320/321NEOs that will be delivered. The value of the NEO order will be higher than the A380 order. I'd say Airbus will be crying all the way to the bank.

AND - they've already booked 10 A380 sales this year to replace the ILFC ones.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30567 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20103 times:
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Quoting LH422 (Reply 19):
I find it interesting that all three US customers for the A380 (ILFC, UPS, FedEX) have now cancelled their orders. I'm still hoping for the day a US airline orders one.

Well FX and 5X had their hands forced by Airbus choosing to stop development of the A380-800F and ILFC just could not find any customers who wanted to directly lease an A380 (preferring sale and leaseback deals).


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20051 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 10):
Perhaps someone could change the thread title to "ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo"?
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
It was a bit of a shock to actually read what the OP wrote - I thought I'd clicked the wrong thread.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
Better still....."ILFC cancels 10 A380, orders 100 A320neo and 33 B738s"... .

Who cares about these boring narrow-bodies? Make your own thread about that. This is solely about the fact that they canceled the A380s.


User currently offlineboeingbus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19922 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):

Even from the PR perspective, Chris, I have to disagree. I'd say a very good day for Airbus!

However you spin this... a cancellation of an A380 order is not good for Airbus. This is bad news.... and Airbus execs needs to find a way to reverse this trend or the assembly line will stop eventually.

The A320 sells like hotcakes and that is expected so the ILFC order would happen no matter what. You will see hundreds of orders this year for NEO's and non NEO's.

What do we expect from the A380?

Airbus needs this project to be successful... when a lessor can't find airlines for what it has ordered many years ago it says a lot about the program. This is not good news for Airbus.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently onlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5405 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19880 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 22):
Who cares about these boring narrow-bodies? Make your own thread about that. This is solely about the fact that they canceled the A380s.

I was going to join the crowd calling for a new title but you make a very good point. You started the thread...you get to decide the topic.

Well done.



What the...?
25 art : Out of curiosity, why do airlines choose to directly lease other types? Early delivery? Short term need (eg A330 bridging lift while waiting for deli
26 mham001 : They are going to sell narrow bodies no matter what anyway. A-320, A320 NEOs, it doesn't much matter if ILFC buys and leases them or they are sold di
27 Stitch : They can do so for a variety of reasons. The initial capital costs are much lower for a lease than a purchase. Earlier delivery if the lessor has fra
28 Garpd : No US airline appears to be able to fill a 747 regularly, let alone an A380. And slots aren't a huge problem with all the mergers going on.
29 Aesma : The exact opposite could be argued : if the A380 cannot be leased, the 748i would fare even worse.
30 CFBFrame : Good point and we'll leave it at that. Nice order will keep the line moving at the current consistent pace. You have a point there and I think the an
31 rikkus67 : ...where's the "like" button? In the end there is a larger order, and that's all the really matters, regardless of country. I am sure long term, we w
32 PolymerPlane : But those 100 A320 would've been sold anyway without the A380 cancellation. Do you think ILFC would not get the 100 A320s if there's lease market out
33 scbriml : Well, you did mention it in the thread starter, and it's directly related to the cancellation of the A380s. Shouldn't be a surprise it's being discus
34 brons2 : Yeah, because threads always stay on track around here at a.nut! :rolleyes: Anyways, I think the net effect of this is good news for Airbus. They jus
35 mham001 : Other than possibly being a way to retain deposits, how is it related?
36 flyglobal : I Would have preferred that the sale of 33 Boeing 737 would have also mentioned in the headline. Congrats to Boeing as well as to Airbus. Regarding th
37 Stitch : Maybe, maybe not. One advantage to a lessor owning the 747-8 is that they can convert it to a 747-8BCF when it's useful life as a passenger plane is
38 Thorben : Not at all. And who cares? As in reply 26: It's hardly news. Airbus sells 100 A320s, yawn. They sell them all the time and they fly around everywhere
39 david_itl : But if the money not being spent on the A380s is being used for the A320NEOs then it's absolutley legitimate to bring it up. Perhaps you believe BA's
40 mariner : For those of us whose interests lie with airlines that only fly narrowbodies, we care. I see no mention is made of the potential Republic order for t
41 Thorben : In another thread. It doesn't even say any airline. Only ILFC. They are no airline, but they could lease the planes to hundreds of airlines. Because
42 Post contains links and images mariner : This article mentions Republic: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...alServicesAndRealEstateNews&rpc=43 "After bagging the tentative order for
43 474218 : Where in the article did you read that there was a "real order" from ILFC for 100 NEO's? I read that there is a "memorandum of understanding" between
44 robffm2 : Well, at one time ILFC thought they would be able to lease out the A380s too.
45 CFBFrame : So, for $20 Mil more you can get a gas hog (or an algae eater)? Should be interesting to see whether the next round of sales remain at that price poi
46 ruscoe : ILFC would likely have ordered the NEO anyway, regardless of it 380 order status, so a good day for the NEO, but it is a bad day for the 380. Ruscoe
47 Stitch : Boeing was expecting the 747-8 to be around 20% more fuel efficient than the 747-400 (at least once GE hits SFC spec), which should put it in the bal
48 cpd : Can I refer you to your original post, which is quoted below: It's not great for A380, but it's even worse news for Boeing with the A320 NEO storming
49 mham001 : That would only be true if Boeing customers were abandoning the 737 in droves. They haven't. Narrow bodies are going to sell no matter NEO or non-NEO
50 Aesma : Leasing is always costing more, or it would not make any money to leasing companies. Unless the airline leases only a few planes, or can't get financ
51 AirNZ : Can you perhaps explain to me what it says about the programme....because I certainly can't see it and thus will be more than interested in how you s
52 qfa787380 : So, you don't actively think that ILFC tried to market those slots to various carriers? Could be seen as a lower risk approach by some airlines leasi
53 Post contains links and images boeingbus : Gladly. Supply vs Demand - The supply is there, 10 A380 near term slots, but there is NO demand. I know the world economy has a play on airline decis
54 N328KF : This may be true much of the time, but does not need to be universal. A leasing firm only needs to obtain a purchase price lower than their customers
55 flyingAY : I'm not entirely sure that a BCF program will be launched, if only a limited amount of Intercontinentals gets sold. The mantra repeated here "If the
56 Clipper747 : Airbus is happy ILFC swapped the 10 A380 to 100 NEOs. Between the heavy discount and delay penalties, the 10 A380 would have been sold at a great loss
57 parapente : Reply 53 Boeingbus. Spot on. There is clearly no demand out there for the VLA's. This must bother both Airbus and Boeing as stated but especially Airb
58 Burkhard : By the way, where are we with A320 NEO orders and MoU? Virgin America 30 fix Indigo 150 MoU ILFC 100 MoU Lufthansa 30 still in negociation? which am I
59 FlyNWA727 : What where 'who' thinking??? The A380 is the only true VLA. The 748i seats about 467 passengers in three classes, per Boeing's own in-house configura
60 PanAm_DC10 : TAM have an MoU for 22 to be firmed up, reported by both the carrier and Airbus.
61 Burkhard : Thanks, that is an MoU. rmemebered it to be classic, but it is 10 classic + 22 NEO. So we are at Virgin America 30 fix Indigo 150 MoU ILFC 100 MoU TAM
62 gemuser : Wrong. The ILFC cancellation does not free up any slots A380, because none have been allocated to them. So your thesis collapses. Gemuser
63 scbriml : It's part of the same transaction. Airbus has already replaced the 10 ILFC frames with other orders this year and will very soon have additional orde
64 Post contains links boeingbus : This is an article back in May of 2010. "US lessor International Lease Finance (ILFC) has pushed back by one year the deliveries of its Airbus A380 a
65 ikramerica : While I understand the political reasons for changing the thread title, but you'd at least think it could be changed to an ACCURATE title. A380s were
66 WingedMigrator : It is hardly routine. This is the first order that specifies an engine choice for a re-engined narrowbody... all the NEO orders so far did not specif
67 Aesma : I think there will be a lot of MoUs for Airbus in the coming months, to allow them to announce hundreds of orders in June. You're right, I wanted to s
68 gemuser : Normally, of course, you would be right. But Airbus knew this was coming for a long time and had not re-allocated slots to IFLC's order after the ori
69 Post contains images EPA001 : The point to point strategy already came along with the B767 and A310. And it really took off with the A340, A330 and the B777 (in that sequence of E
70 Post contains links scbriml : Semantics. I've been told this is a single transaction - the A380s will be cancelled when the order for NEOs is signed. It seems it will be sooner ra
71 Post contains images lightsaber : Headline should have been, a good day for Pratt! 60 frames is a nice order for Pratt. The A380 issue is production rate. Until Airbus is able to incre
72 Thorben : So it was already changed when you found it. It was different before. Trust me, I know it. 100% agreed. I've not seen any production numbers allocate
73 eraugrad02 : Rebublic Ordered 12 A320NEO's per what my brother (Captain at RP) told me. They are buying a LOT of metal for Frontier. E190's and Canadair C-Series
74 Post contains images ikramerica : yes. because the OP wanted to talk about the A380, and he made that quite clear. the mods changed it for political reasons, because too many people c
75 Post contains images WingedMigrator : It's a signed MOU to cancel 'nother way of thinking about it: the A380 cancellation and the A320 order will be reflected at the same date in the O&am
76 Post contains images scbriml : I've been told it's a single transaction, which hasn't yet been completed. The A380 order is "cancelled" in exactly the same way that the NEOs have b
77 Post contains links Flying-Tiger : Probably a bit of interest to why ILFC cancelled: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...t-uncertainty-ceo-tells-echos.html Looks like a risk-avoidanc
78 Stitch : That is interesting. SQ and EK have a number (if not all) of their birds on 10-years leases with Doric Aircraft Finance. I would expect SQ not to ren
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