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Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?  
User currently offlineAznjapken From United States of America, joined May 2001, 54 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

I was wondering if the aircraft has to be aligned with the runway and stopped before raising the thrust. Once I was on a Delta MD-11 out of Fukuoka to PDx, and while still turning onto the runway, the captian raised the thrust, straightened out, and tookoff. On all of the other flights i have been on, the aircraft has been stopped and lined up before raising the thrust. Any information would help, thanx.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Same thing has happened to me numerous times. On a flight from ORD to LGA, the taxiway was clear, the whole way, and the pilot didn't even stop at the runway. He just raised the thrust and took off. This has also happened at ATL.

User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

This happens often and I always thought that it was due to the runway being clear and perhaps ATC wanting the A/C to go, already.

But why do aircraft, sometimes in addition to holding rev with the breaks on? I am assuming that if the runway is short like LGA then one would go to speed more quickly with engines already revved, but I have experienced it only sometimes at LGA, with no correlation to weather conditions or load apparent to me, and at other airports as well (like MEM, no short runways there.)



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineSSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

I was on a UAL 752 from ORD-LAX. The pilo reved his engines right from the taxiway onto 32L and went full throttle once he aligned. I think there was heavy traffic and ATC might have wanted the plane to leave the taxiway and depart ASAP. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

User currently offlineDelta777-XXX From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1017 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

You don't have to stop on the runway unless ATC says, "taxi into position and hold" or whatever. Sometimes they go ahead and clear you for takeoff... so theres no need to stop on the runway.

User currently offlineDoug_or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

ditto Delta 777-xxx. In addition, they may also issue a "no delay" request if there is an aircraft on final.


When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineGo Around From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

If you're cleared for takeoff without having to hold in position, and there are no runway or climb performance restrictions, a common practice (assuming good weather, dry runway) is to let the engines stabilize as you're finishing the turn, and then once lined up, bring the engines up to takeoff thrust. There is no need to stop the plane and hold the brakes, assuming the above mentioned conditions.

User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

You don't 'rev' jet engines, you spool them up!

User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Another interesting practice is an intersection departure where the aircraft won't taxi to the end of the runway but instead, departs from an intersection. This happened to me on a Southwest flight at OAK. Instead of taxiing to the end of runway 29, we used a taxiway and without stopping, proceeded to the take-off roll. Tons of fun!

User currently offlineSuper Em From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

That happens alot in LGA.While still in the turn the pilot applies full power and is gone.Also in response to Modesto2's comment,I saw that at JFK.A Jetblue A320 did that.

User currently offlineWJV04 From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

this happens everywhere, even in little cessnas, its not a big deal..
you can get takeoff clearence from holding short or on the runway...
cya


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

In alot of heavier aircraft it is reccomended not to stop at the end of the runway if at all possible. This is because you have to spool the engines higher to get the plane moving again..thus putting more wear on the engines and burning more fuel. The reason why you dont usually stop at the end of the runway is because of the position and hold command usually imposed on the airplane by ATC because of another one clearing the runway that has just landed or has just departed, thus providing the proper separation. Otherwise (given that all checklists are complete) youll just meander out there without stopping and gun it.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineTrickijedi From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3266 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1921 times:

DELTA&&&-XXX Wrote: You don't have to stop on the runway unless ATC says, "taxi into position and hold" or whatever.

Delta, I would have to disagree with you. When turning on to the runway from the taxiway, the pilot always has to stop on the runway until he gets clearance from ATC, which the pilots have to repeat back. Another reason why they wouldn't hold short of the runway is when ATC wants them to take-off at runway xx "no delay," as Doug pointed out. But this request would have to be transmitted at an ample time.



Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1984 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1918 times:

I was on a 747-400 at LAX and we were on the taxiway and we did this huge, mushy turn onto 24L and during the turn the pilot let the engines go 100% and no sooner did we turn than we were screaming down the runway! It was great!

And on landing, we landed 24R and went straight to the taxiway, held short, and kept on going!

Great stuff!!!



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1919 times:

Actually.. youre wrong too.. there are two things that can happen when holding short of a runway:

A: Tower can clear you for departure (at which time you can stroll on out on the runway, stopping if you want to finish any necessary checklists or departure preparations, or running on out there and gunning it-- and as mentioned earlier they can tell you to expedite departure and get into the air as quickly as possible.)


or

B: Tower can give you position and hold, where you taxi out on the runway, line up, and stop.. until tower gives you clear for take off.


Thats it. End of story.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineTrickijedi From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3266 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1914 times:

XFSUgimpLB41X, that is exactly what I wrote, dude. You just went into more detail about it than I did. Point is: Planes have to stop on the runway unless they get some clearance from ATC, which is contrary to what DELTA&&&-XXX wrote. He says you don;t have to unless ATC tells them to hold.


Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
User currently offlineQantas737 From Australia, joined Jul 2000, 738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1899 times:

XFSU is correct.
a) the aircraft may be taxiing and when getting closer to the RWY the tower may clear him for "immediate take-off" which pilot's must take seriously for safety reasons.

b) An aircraft may have landed and you are cleared to line-up on the RWY, but maybe due to wake-turbulance or the aircraft which had just landed may not be off the RWY yet you are not cleared for take-off as of yet. Once everything is OK then the TWR will clear u for take-off.


User currently offlineSeagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1902 times:

Tricki,

You seem to be misunderstanding something here. The only time you have to stop is:

1. Prior to the runway if ATC has not cleared you onto the runway to either takeoff or hold in position;

2. On the runway in the case that ATC has not cleared you for takeoff but instead "into position and hold" or "lineup and wait" (as is used in most of the world).

If, as we approach the runway, ATC says "cleared for takeoff" then there is no requirement for us to stop at all, period! Additionally, there is NO requirement stop on the runway if ATC has cleared us for takeoff prior to getting onto the runway.

Now, there are a couple of other reasons the crew may elect to stop on the runway. In turbojet aircraft that would most likely be to runup the engines due to icing conditions (can be as much as +10c depending on engine type). The other time is if a crew was very concerned about takeoff length, so wanted to run up the engines prior to brake release. As has been pointed out, this is of limited value and has some strong negatives associated with it.



User currently offlineAnheuser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

SEAGULL? DO YOU FLY?
TOWER clears you onto the rwy for takeoff, not atc! I'd like to see you call atc (departure) for a clearance to t/o from a particular rwy at a particular airport while holding short!!!


User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1515 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

I thought it had something to do with the fact that the nosewheel steering is disabled for takeoff with some aircraft making it impossible to correct the direction while taking off. Correct me if I'm wrong please.


Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineSeagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

Anh,

Yes, I'm an MD-11 Captain for a U.S. major airline. I have also participatedin ATPAC, charting forums and many ALPA safety committees.

You are under some inane impression that the tower is not part of ATC. Contrary to what you think, and as anyone from FAA would tell you, ATC includes terminal (that's both approach control and "local" control, the latter being what you call the "tower"), enroute, which is ARTCC, and FSS. All are part of ATC. You might also call NATCA and ask them if they consider their members who work in the towers if they consider them to be a part of ATC. Better yet, ask your local airport control tower Air Traffic Controllers. They're the ones that _control the traffic_ from the tower.

As to Vgn, nose wheel steering is not disabled on any aircraft I know of, although some smaller turboprops don't have direct linkage from the _rudder pedals_ to the nosewheel, requiring the use of the tiller during the early part of the takeoff roll.


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

Two airports were mentioned where aircraft spooled up before being lined up on the runway. Many of you are aviation enthusiasts, therefore you know the challenges we all face in LGA. Intersecting runways where the "Tower" controlers need pilots to be ready to immedietely follow commands in order to use the runway configurations to their maximum capacity. The tower controler issues takeoff clearances sometimes while an aircraft is still 400 yards from the end of the runway. Right away, the pilots complete the takeoff checks and you'll see all the lights come on prior to even turning on to the runway. Keeping the speed up around the corner and on to the runway saves fuel and runway that might just be needed if a failure close to V1 is experienced. I fly a regional jet with no auto-brakes that uses a good bit of runway for takeoff due to it's wing having no leading edge devices. Runway is my friend on a hot day with a ful load comming out of DCA, or LGA,MDW,or HPN. Not to mention some destinations we serve in Mexico where that extra boost of speed in the turn on to the runway could mean less of a holding pattern climb to clear the mountains.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineAmbasaid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Seagull, welcome to airliners.net, you will learn to love the place!

User currently offlineHeavyJet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Seagull,

Welcome aboard!

Don't worry, There are many non-pilot and 17 yr old private pilot "experts" on this board who spread misinformation as if it were the truth.

UPS A300 Capt



User currently offlineGo Around From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1855 times:

One more note about intersection takeoffs. At my airline (also one of the 9 majors), we could have the longest runway in the world and be offered an intersection takeoff, but if we didn't have the performance numbers on board for that particular runway and intersection, we're prohibited from taking it. Can't speak for the other airlines, but my guess is many would have the same restrictions. Common sense will tell you many intersections would be perfectly safe to takeoff from, but the rule is all encompassing. And on any shorter runway or departure with obstacles, it probably isn't a bad rule to have. It's nice to have the performance numbers to reference before blasting off.

25 Trickijedi : And I myself am one of those people whom I do not dub as an expert but rather am more than willing to learn and really do not mind to be respectfully
26 Critter_592 : Since on the subject, I once heard a Delta pilot being told to taxi into position and hold on 4L at JFK. After the correct miles separation were estab
27 FSPilot747 : I was out spotting in SNA yesterday, and I noticed that all but one plane spooled up on the turn to line up with the runway. Only one actually stopped
28 Go Around : Well, now that's interesting about SNA, because of all the airports I regularly fly in and out of, that's the only one where we actually do hold the b
29 777gk : Typically, you will do this when there is not too much traffic around and you can afford to have some more fun. I love pulling a 757 around onto the a
30 SSTjumbo : If anyone talks about 17 year old think-they-know-it-all-but-really-don'ts, don't include me! I deliberately said to correct me if I'm wrong because I
31 Mx727 : Hello! Actually, it's called "rolling" takeoff. If you are cleared to takeoff before you enter the runway, you may put some thrust still being on the
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