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Aegean To Launch Long-haul Flights?  
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10458 times:

A guy i just spoke to said that he believes A3 are going to start looking at expanding their ATH base and might look to begin long-haul flights at some stage. He says they are looking at 788s or A332s.

My take on that is it is bound to happen sooner or later, but that the 788 is absolutely ideal for them. No question in my mind they'll be able to make a daily JFK and probably a CPT work as well. I also think they might look to use the 788 to LHR etc in peak periods.

Obviously it wont happen in the short term unless they get A332s, but i think we may well see it in a couple of years. Good luck to them i say - was very, very impressed with them when I flew to ATH last week.


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10307 times:

I think they have an excellent onboard product for a European carrier. I too was very impressed with them when i flew LHR-ATH.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
and probably a CPT work as well

I think you mean a JNB - that's where the Greek market is, not CPT.


Having said that, I think it would be a mistake. SA would be very hard for them to get to work. And ok that might leave a viable JFK in traffic terms but the costs involved in having a small niche long haul business may well offset the revenues there would otherwise be. Far more sensible to codeshare on CO's flights out of ATH as a *A partner. Likewise do the same to get to SA - maybe with Egyptair.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10154 times:

I believe flights to certain destinations like JFK/EWR, ORD, SYD, MEL and JNB could be quite succesful given that the old OA had very good loads on these flights (but could not compete with other carriers due to their high operational costs).

Aegean have a quite healthy base at ATH and if their current expansion at LCA is succesfull, they will soon (2-3 years) have the market to support long haul flights.

At the same time, it will be interesting to see how the (at the moment) unsuccesful tie-up between A3 and OA develops given their intention to appeal against the EU Competition Comittee decision and given that the number of destinations served by both airlines is shrinking day by day      

The last "victim" was the town of Ioannina (IOA) when last week A3 announced the termination of their ATH flights leaving OA the only player.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10005 times:

Quoting cornish (Reply 2):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
and probably a CPT work as well

I think you mean a JNB - that's where the Greek market is, not CPT.

Doh - yes.

[Edited 2011-03-25 10:23:46 by srbmod]


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineac033 From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2008, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9779 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
He says they are looking at 788s or A332s.

788 is just not a good idea for them to start with. Lets assume they wanted to start at the end of this year. I am sure they couldn't get some 788 on hands. But if they can get some used 332's and starting flying to JFK,ORD and JNB?? , but i am sure that 788 is not the good plane for them to start with.


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2650 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

Why can´t they just grab the Ex Olympic A343s sitting in ATH?

Give them a good once over, a fresh coat of paint and jobs a good´un! at least as an interim solution.

MIAspotter



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9202 times:

Would be great news! See longhaul service on SX aircraft again! Of course I hope for YYZ, but I'm not sure if that's a large enough Greek community to warrant service from TS, AC and A3. Is there possibility of expansion in to Asia?

User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9175 times:
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I have to say that at the moment they probably need to get their current network back into profit , it is usual for longhaul services to make losses until they are established , can Aegean really afford to carry that additional burden for a couple of years with the situation they ( and Greece ) are in at the moment ? "Nice to see "and "financially prudent" are often very different things in the airline industry .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineOlympicATH From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8667 times:

CHRISBA777ER, do you mind asking your friend what his sources are exactly?

I do believe that ATH has the potential to have a small long-haul operation, although this can be quite tricky (ATH is a small and extremely seasonal market) and didn't work that well for OA. Given Aegean's expansion in the region, I believe it might be able to support a niche 788 operation to a few select destinations.
Aegean is very lucky in the sense that the biggest long-haul markets out of Greece are actually Star hubs, except maybe SYD and MEL (which won't happen anytime soon anyway). That's something they are surely taking into consideration.
Markets that could work (this is only my view):
Tier 1: NYC, ORD, YYZ
Tier 2: YUL, JNB
Tier 3: IAD

CO seems to be struggling a bit with its EWR-ATH service (it was just downdraded back to seasonal) so I'm sure they would be willing to give the market to A3.
YYZ and YUL are actually seasonal services on AC (YYZ is upgraded to 4 weekly this year), not sure how that would work.
JNB could attract connecting traffic to Europe (especially if OA's SOF, OTP, TIA, BEG and IST flights are somehow part of the operation).
ORD has been the biggest market out of ATH not served by a direct flight for years (Athens Intl Airport data) and it's also a major Star hub.
At a later stage, provided that all these work and given the good infrastructure and the superb expansion potential in ATH, they could try some destinations in Asia (although ATH's location is not ideal for connections and they would be facing competition from all the Gulf carriers).

In a nutshell, it could work and I'm sure A3 are giving it some thought.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32182 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8483 times:

Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 8):
ORD has been the biggest market out of ATH not served by a direct flight for years (Athens Intl Airport data) and it's also a major Star hub.

It flip-flops with Boston and Melbourne as the largest unserved market. The three are virtually the same size. The ten largest unserved long-haul markets are:

1) Chicago
2) Melbourne
3) Boston
4) Sydney
5) Los Angeles
6) Tokyo
7) San Francisco
8) Washington
9) Miami
10) Houston



a.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Could this be a reaction to Helenic's plans, or perhaps confused with Helenic's plans?


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6906 times:

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 2):
SYD, MEL and JNB could be quite succesful given that the old OA had very good loads on these flights

That was before Emirates. Australia is a no brainer to take EK instead...onstop to all of the major cities.. a greek airline will never be able to offer that. EK work better for south africa if you're going to CPT or Durban... so that will split up the previous JNB traffic and might make it tough for the direct flight to work (same problem with serving melbourne and sydney with a tag on flight when the competition could offer one stop to both and a better product.. in the case of olympic)

Greece only has a small population. That in itself will work against it. To make it work they need to set up a big hub...not impossible.. but its gonna be hard. Maybe if they could focus on taking some of the spanish market to the far east or feeding directly into a star hub in asia they might make one work there but Thai and Singapore have that pretty covered and aren't gonna exactly be thrilled to help when they already have this market in their own right.

I think the basic problem they're gonna find is this. A lot of the key markets are gonna be too small to go daily, so without that, the bigger hubs will eat them alive by offering far more frequent connections. I would say possibly a few non-stops to the USA might work but they better keep their costs down, this is a liesure dominated market. Greece isn't exactly known for being a major business centre of the world, a major industrial powerbase or an emerging market. If they could swallow their pride and agressively go after the turkish market next door... then they might stand a chance but I'm not sure if that is possible cutlurally considering the history between the two.


User currently offlineDJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6889 times:

OA once upon a time used to fly to SYD, but dropped the route because they couldn't make it work - the market would still likely be too thin, but admittedly if A3 could launch SYD with a low-cost base and charge accordingly, they'll get the jump on JQ and could become preferred carrier on the route. JQ are eyeing the ATH route when their 787's come on board. I personally can't see MEL working for them - if A3 were to fly into Australia, SYD would be the best choice. But still, very very unlikely to be able to get the SYD-Asia-ATH route working in the near future.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26503 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6415 times:

Not going to happen for the foreseeable future. As for Australia you will never see SX reg's there . It didn't work in the old days when the government were subsidising the costs let alone in a world with EK and EY/TG.

The only route that I can see realistically happening is ATH-JFK with a whole load of Star codeshares on it. In a time when A3 and OA are strategically ''fine tuning'' their networks so not as to compete there are other priorities right now rather than longhaul. Two years ago the same threads/rumours were going around on this and other forums. Nice idea but not in the current climate. Even when the climate is right the aircraft used would have to be the most fuel efficient and realistic amount of seats.



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

Do not take A3's recent small expansion as sign of good financial performance, or as a sign of further expansion. A3 has been hit hard by the current financial climate in Greece and the rest of Europe. Their load factors are still very low for an airline of their calibre (in the 60's%). The fact that they are opening new routes, adding flights to existing routes and opening a new mini-hub is more of a "lets get it while we can" than a strategic and calculated expansion.

A3's press release on their results of 2010 showed a 5% decrease in total passenger traffic and a 16% decrease in passenger traffic on their domestic routes ( which is more than half of their total passengers carried in 2010). They also stated a 22-24 million euro loss estimate after tax for the 2010 financial year. In addition they also stated that the chances are that 2011 will also be result in negative financial figures.

I fully agree that A3 offers a great product to its passengers, and overall they are a very mature airline for Greek and European standards. However, with these figures, I highly doubt they will be in any thoughts of opening up long haul routes anytime soon with the current financial situation in Greece. A3 simply does not have enough money right now to sustain any major losses on such fragile routes, and the Greek aviation market is currently in a transition period. Also, do not forget that Greece is one of the only countries in Europe which does not have a based LCC.. If a LCC were to make a hub in ATH, A3's load factors will take a hard turn to the south.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4900 times:

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 14):

A3's press release on their results of 2010 showed a 5% decrease in total passenger traffic and a 16% decrease in passenger traffic on their domestic routes ( which is more than half of their total passengers carried in 2010). They also stated a 22-24 million euro loss estimate after tax for the 2010 financial year. In addition they also stated that the chances are that 2011 will also be result in negative financial figures.

Passenger numbers were also down 15.4% in January 2011, though their loadfactor improved slightly due to lower ASK. Furthermore, A3s ability to lend in the open market is hindered by the negative sentiment towards anything that is Greek. Not a good environment to start long haul flights..

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 10):
Could this be a reaction to Helenic's plans, or perhaps confused with Helenic's plans?

Do they still have scheduled flights to JNB?

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 14):
Also, do not forget that Greece is one of the only countries in Europe which does not have a based LCC.. If a LCC were to make a hub in ATH, A3's load factors will take a hard turn to the south.

Don't FR and U2 have some services to Greece from London?


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 15):
Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 14):
Also, do not forget that Greece is one of the only countries in Europe which does not have a based LCC.. If a LCC were to make a hub in ATH, A3's load factors will take a hard turn to the south.

Don't FR and U2 have some services to Greece from London?

Yes.

Ignoring for this purpose the fact that some are summer-seasonal:

FR serves 6 Greek airports, albeit only 2 from STN (RHO, SKG).

EZY serves 10 Greek airports, with 9 served from LGW. It also serves ATH from 7 European airports (EDI, MAN, LGW, SXF, ORY, MXP, FCO).



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4859 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 15):
Don't FR and U2 have some services to Greece from London?

Yes they have many parallel routes with U2, and very few, if any, with FR. And this is already affecting them for many years now. Look at the passenger numbers that U2 fly to and from London airports, and MXP and FCO for example. And look at A3's... its night and day.. The reason I am refering to a LCC making a hub in ATH, is not for the international routes. It is for domestic routes. More than half of A3's yearly passenger numbers come from their domestic routes and not from their international ones. Currently A3 has pretty high prices on domestic routes. If a LCC, for example U2, were to open a hub at ATH and fly domestic routes, they can afford to sell tickets with half the price that A3 sells, and STILL make profit.. On the contrary A3 is not making money even now. Its simply a matter of market pricing power. A3 does not have any power, a LCC does. This is a very good reason why the Greek government and civil aviation authority keep doing whatever they can to stop U2 from expanding into ATH.

Even though I am Greek and for obvious reason i'd prefer to see a Greek airline much like A3 serving the Greek market, I believe they simply do not have enough pricing power in order to compete with a money making machine.. And to come back on topic, if they were to start transatlantic routes to NY they would be competing against DL and CO. If they were to attack the Canadian routes, they would be competing with TS and AC which pretty much cover all the demand on those routes, and are way more popular on the side of the pond which has more demand. Any other routes I think is not even worth mentioning.


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4760 times:
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Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 17):
This is a very good reason why the Greek government and civil aviation authority keep doing whatever they can to stop U2 from expanding into ATH

What can they do to stop them ? As an EU carrier U2 has the rights to fly wherever they like within the EU , don't they ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMilesDependent From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
That was before Emirates. Australia is a no brainer to take EK instead...onstop to all of the major cities.. a greek airline will never be able to offer that. EK work better for south africa if you're going to CPT or Durban... so that will split up the previous JNB traffic and might make it tough for the direct flight to work (same problem with serving melbourne and sydney with a tag on flight when the competition could offer one stop to both and a better product.. in the case of olympic)

Hmm...

Let's not forget since EK axed some of its ATH flights, and also axed its thrid daily to SYD.... there is now no decent connection on EK ATH to SYD. You have to overnight in DXB. Some friends were wanting to fly this route recently, but have switched to EY instead. I am going to ATH next year, and will also be going EY.


User currently offlinevam From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4278 times:

I see little chance for Aegean going long-haul any time soon. I recall a few years ago when Aegean bought their current Airbus fleet, their management said that the A320/21 investment will cover their regional and medium-haul expansion and because of that big investment (relative to their size) there will be no other plans for at least 4 years. Given the dire financial situation in Greece, A3's own problems and the OA merger saga, those 4 years could easily become 6 or more.

Additionally, I think it was before the merger proposal in late 2009, their CEO when asked in an interview, rejected any thoughts for transatlantic flights. He said very few destinations make financial sense, the fleet necessary would be very small (2-3 planes) and therefore it will be very difficult for them to turn profit in any such long-haul expansion. He explicitly denied it. I can't see how any of the events in the last 1 1/2 years would make them change their mind.


Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 10):
Could this be a reaction to Helenic's plans, or perhaps confused with Helenic's plans?

Hellenic (Imperial) needs to go a very long..long way before we can include them in any sort of airline discussion.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 17):
This is a very good reason why the Greek government and civil aviation authority keep doing whatever they can to stop U2 from expanding into ATH
What can they do to stop them ? As an EU carrier U2 has the rights to fly wherever they like within the EU , don't they ?

There's nothing they can do. Greek government has nothing to do with it. Fact is ATH is an expensive airport and unwilling to give any sort of "Ryanair style" discounts. That's why LCCs are not eager to start domestic or South-Eastern Europe ops from it.


User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26503 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4269 times:

Quoting vam (Reply 20):
Hellenic (Imperial) needs to go a very long..long way before we can include them in any sort of airline discussion.

I wouldnt set foot on them ! A very dodgy operation.

Quoting vam (Reply 20):
Fact is ATH is an expensive airport and unwilling to give any sort of "Ryanair style" discounts. That's why LCCs are not eager to start domestic or South-Eastern Europe ops from it.

Yet ATH is still proving to be an attractive route for many .


Athens International Airport: More international flights offered by foreign carriers in the summer 2011 schedule


Despite the continued adverse financial conditions prevailing in the Greek economy, foreign carriers continued their development out of Athens International Airport, by a 7% increase in their scheduled international services during the summer period (25.03.11 – 27.10.11).

In the summer period 2011, a total of 65 airlines will be offering 944 scheduled weekly flights to 77 international destinations (82 airports), in 49 countries.

Analytically, the airport’s “new arrivals”:

 8 new airlines will be operating scheduled flights to/from Athens International Airport:
TAP Air Portugal, Jetairfly, Belle Air, Transavia Netherlands, while Air China, Rossiya Airlines, Sun Express, and Air One are re-launching services out of Athens.

 6 new destinations are added to Athens International Airport’s network:
Lisbon (TAP Air Portugal), Beijing (Air China), Bologna (Aegean Airlines), Pisa (Air One), Edinburgh (easyJet), and Dubrovnik (Croatia Airlines)

 and 8 new airports:
Lisbon Portela (TAP), Charleroi (Jetairfly), Edinburgh Airport (easyJet), Aeroporto di Bologna (Aegean Airlines), Beijing Capital International Airport (Air China), Domodedovo (Aegean Airlines), Galileo Galilei (Air One), and Oslo Gardemoen (Norwegian)

http://www.aia.gr/entry.asp?pageID=7...ablePageID=12&langID=2&entryID=359



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 17):
The reason I am refering to a LCC making a hub in ATH, is not for the international routes. It is for domestic routes. More than half of A3's yearly passenger numbers come from their domestic routes and not from their international ones. Currently A3 has pretty high prices on domestic routes.

However, will there ever be a market? I was under the impression that most domestic routes (ATH-SKG aside) are operated under the EU scheme where the airline receives subsidies to operate them


User currently offlinenormie999 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
Why can´t they just grab the Ex Olympic A343s sitting in ATH?

Give them a good once over, a fresh coat of paint and jobs a good´un! at least as an interim solution.

If you see what is going on between Olympic Air and Aegean as a merger by other means (see here) then that seems a possibility, though whether they could use any money out of them is another matter.

On the fantasy front, in response to the EK effect and in anticipation of the 787, what about Athens-Perth WA? - usp the world's first Europe-Australia nonstop...


User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting DJ748 (Reply 12):

ATH and FCO are both happening before the 788 comes online.. its happening with the new A332HGW ... which we already have   the foundations have already been layed... MEL-SIN (JQ7/8) and it will continue onto ATH and FCO...... so Aegean are going to want to be real quick! Because the time frame JQ are looking at is November!



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
25 Post contains images PlymSpotter : They transpired to be just for the World Cup. I wouldn't discount their relevance to this topic - it's unlikely to be a coincidence that shortly afte
26 ODAFZ : I will fully agree with OA260 and SergioAEE, they beat me to the analysis. A3 need to consolidate its operations in the midst of a very negative and h
27 Post contains links mariner : Why Sydney when the larger Greek population is in Melbourne?: http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/greece/greece_country_brief.html "The Greek population is co
28 oa260 : The flight actually served both. ATH-BKK-SYD-MEL or MEL-SYD cant remember in which order. When it was discontinued there were protests amongst the di
29 mariner : How many of the European airlines that used to serve Australia still do? And Qantas used to serve Athens, but no more. The Asian/Middle Eastern airli
30 Andy33 : Trouble is, the 343s have never at any time belonged to Olympic in any of its forms, let alone the present Olympic Air. They belong to the Greek Gove
31 Post contains images gkirk : Whats Qatar got to do with it?
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