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WN Starts EWR Service, N/S To STL/MDW Begins  
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Southw...cks-New-prnews-1273817681.html?x=0

DALLAS, March 28, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News) today celebrates the airline's new service into the New Jersey/New York area via Newark Liberty International Airport. This new service will provide six daily nonstop flights to Chicago Midway and two daily nonstop flights to St. Louis. Gary Kelly, Southwest Airlines Chairman of the Board, President, and CEO, joined Chris Bollwage, Mayor of the City of Elizabeth, and Bill Baroni, Deputy Executive Director of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, in today's news conference at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center.

Yesterday Southwest started New York City/Newark as its 72nd station in the US. 6 flights to Chicago-Midway and 2 to Lambert-St. Louis began yesterday for a total of 8 daily. This will grow in the 2nd wave to add new non stop service to HOU, PHX, BWI and DEN in June.

I am happy to see WN included STL this time around for a new station opener, this hasn't happened in awhile!

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7829 times:

Really EWR-BWI? I know BWI is a big station for WN, and it msut be for connections , but with all n/s CO/UA competition...I could think of a dozen better cities to serve out of EWR....FLL, MCO, BOS, DTW, BNA, MSY......hell even RDU


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7797 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
Really EWR-BWI? I know BWI is a big station for WN, and it msut be for connections

..and that's primarily exactly why. Not to mention BWI is the Washington DC for Southwest. Until DCA happens, and WN hasn't been the best at IAD, EWR-BWI will be a perfect fit.

Not to mention slots, WN only had a certain amount of slots to deal with so they picked the large cities WN serves with excellent connection capabilities.



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7586 times:

EWR-BWI still won't be the shortest route in the system, but it will be close. I'm not sure I see the logic either.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 2):
Not to mention slots, WN only had a certain amount of slots to deal with so they picked the large cities WN serves with excellent connection capabilities.

Well, considering how their route network is organized around numerous "hublets" instead of routing everything into 3 or 4 megahubs, it isn't really necessary to run a short flight with limited local traffic just for connections. (With only 3 daily, WN ain't gonna capture the few O&D pax that do exist.) BNA would have provided connection opportunities and a local market. Of course, they might just be placeholder slots for future ATL flights.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7438 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 3):
Well, considering how their route network is organized around numerous "hublets" instead of routing everything into 3 or 4 megahubs, it isn't really necessary to run a short flight with limited local traffic just for connections.

But BWI offers shorter connections than BNA (or any other city you care to choose) to just about anywhere. If they are going to fill the airplanes with connecting passengers, why not fly them to the best hub?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinejcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7320 times:

Great to see this new airport addition for them. But, there are many things that can trip up timeliness of aircraft movement throughout a day to/from this airport. It will be one of those that I will watch before booking a flight for a segment between two cities that will be using an aircraft that touches this and other Northeast cities earlier in the day, especially in the winter or hurricane season.

I just went from PHX to SAN last week on a flight of theirs that originated in the morning out of BUF (late due to ice/snow) in the morning. My flight was to be the fourth segment of the day for that aircraft. It was finally cancelled and required rebooking. I lost our boarding pass positions of A21 and 22 and got the next later flight with B45 and 46.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7200 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
hell even RDU

Yes please



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4147 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7011 times:

"Now, the people of New Jersey and New York have even more options to get to six new locations. "

Those six locations aren't new. In the end, it'll be three new locations...namely, MDW, DAL and HOU. Only having a comparative handful of flights is probably beneficial in such a crowded area.


User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 2):
WN hasn't been the best at IAD

Really?!? Have you tried to fly out of IAD on the MDW or DEN flights? They are always packed and oversold.



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6260 times:

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 8):
Have you tried to fly out of IAD on the MDW or DEN flights? They are always packed and oversold

How about the Florida flights (cut) or the HOU, PHX and LAS flights (never started)? The lack of growth at IAD is abnormal, especially given that there are no space constraints there.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 8):
Really?!? Have you tried to fly out of IAD on the MDW or DEN flights? They are always packed and oversold.

Just because the flights are packed doesn't mean WN is making money...

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
How about the Florida flights (cut) or the HOU, PHX and LAS flights (never started)? The lack of growth at IAD is abnormal, especially given that there are no space constraints there.

I don't think WN want's IAD to compete with its BWI flights


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 10):
I don't think WN want's IAD to compete with its BWI flights

No, but that hasn't stopped them from growing at MKE (which competes with MDW).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6080 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
No, but that hasn't stopped them from growing at MKE (which competes with MDW).

Yes, but BWI and IAD are both marketed as "Washington DC" and the two airports are only 57 miles away from each other. Milwaukee is not marketed as Chicago, and MDW and MKE are 91 miles apart.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 3):
Well, considering how their route network is organized around numerous "hublets" instead of routing everything into 3 or 4 megahubs, it isn't really necessary to run a short flight with limited local traffic just for connections. (

You are thinking of the OLD WN strategy. The NEW WN wants hubs, badly. BWI, MDW, ATL, DEN will be huge hubs for the new WN with PHX, LAS and MCO as secondary more o&d type stations. I bet we see WN shrink some of the larger focus cities and reduce some o&d small route flying to make it happen. The old strategy isn't to fly o&d they will reduce those smaller o&d routes to get more to the hubs which is why they bough airtran to get ATL and beef up BWI and have pushed so hard to make DEN from literally nothing into a hub. I bet if WN cant get more EWR slots that we see STL or HOU become ATL post merger in not that much time. WN wants hubs, the new WN will also have more long distance non-stops to the real hubs i bet.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5900 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 13):
I bet if WN cant get more EWR slots that we see STL or HOU become ATL post merger in not that much time. WN wants hubs, the new WN will also have more long distance non-stops to the real hubs i bet.

I think STL is a bit of an exception to the "new WN" strategy (which, by the way, you've identified correctly). They are focusing on O&D to key business markets at STL, which is why we saw MSP and BOS before AA dehubbed. For that reason (only), STL probably stays, though you may be right about Houston. But BWI is probably easy to cut to add ATL service too.

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 12):
Yes, but BWI and IAD are both marketed as "Washington DC" and the two airports are only 57 miles away from each other.

During much of the day, the difference in drive time isn't as great as those mileages would indicate. If I set off from MDW at 2:00 PM on a weekday, I could easily be at MKE at 4. Could I do that driving from BWI to IAD? Probably, but it's not like I'd be at IAD at 3.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 13):
The NEW WN wants hubs, badly. BWI, MDW, ATL, DEN will be huge hubs for the new WN with PHX, LAS and MCO as secondary more o&d type stations.

If this is accurate than AA/UA/DL will be very relieved to welcome a competitor into the fold of higher operating cost carriers.
WN is embarking on new territory (incl ATL with FL). They wanna play with the "legacy" dogs, they will experience some of the pain the legacies go through as well (e.g. higher operating costs, negotiating slots more than ever, delays...etc.)

The truth is probably more in the middle somewhere. I see DL move more towards a "few mega hubs/many focus cities" model and I see WN move towards higher cost airports just to reap the benefit of higher fares. In the end, AA/UA/DL and WN may have more in common than ever before.

WN should loose the lcc label however. They've clearly outgrown it. If not yet, they will outgrow it very soon.

[Edited 2011-03-28 19:31:07]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

EWR-BWI would offer connections to Ohio, PIT, and upstate NY better than EWR-MDW or if soon ATL. These are routes with high fares on CO nonstop, so hopefully WN can pick up some intra east traffic for those willing to stop and connect in baltimore.

User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 8):

Really?!? Have you tried to fly out of IAD on the MDW or DEN flights? They are always packed and oversold.

That's the thing, Cubsrule identified it clearly, WN has only cut back and in quite a big way at IAD. It is basically the only airport that is NOT Slot restricted that only serves two destinations, it is a bit alarming, but that's the way it is.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):

How about the Florida flights (cut) or the HOU, PHX and LAS flights (never started)? The lack of growth at IAD is abnormal, especially given that there are no space constraints there.

WN was certainly flying IAD-LAS (if you're referring to the never started remark to LAS). I don't know what was announced, but WN was definitely flying IAD-LAS/MCO/MDW/TPA. Then WN cut out TPA/MCO, and changed the LAS to DEN, so that WN is now flying IAD-DEN/LAS.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 13):
The old strategy isn't to fly o&d they will reduce those smaller o&d routes to get more to the hubs

First, I assume you meant new strategy, assuming that, the fact of "not to fly OD" is entirely false. EVERY Airline will target and try to grab as much of the OD market as they possibly can. A Hub itself is based on O/D, and not something where an airline finds a city, plunks the planes down and goes "ok, connect there and hope we make money".

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 13):
DEN will be huge hubs for the new WN with PHX, LAS and MCO as secondary more o&d type stations

LAS is already the largest station, with MDW/PHX 2nd behind, MCO only has 110 departures, barely there! I would be careful to say WN WANTS hubs. The new WN is still like the OLD in sense of they still fly a route that has a good amount of OD, and if they can connect it through a city, they will do so.

Otherwise, everything else you say sounds spot on, just be careful making such blatant statements like that, you are effectively telling us WN's business plan that NO ONE knows not even Employees of WN themselves know. You could be absolutely right or dead wrong, WN has continued to surprise us, 40 years later, and to say an old quote of them "you ain't seen nothing yet".

Quoting peanuts (Reply 15):
They wanna play with the "legacy" dogs, they will experience some of the pain the legacies go through as well (e.g. higher operating costs, negotiating slots more than ever, delays...etc.)

I get what you are saying, but haven't WN been "playing" with the legacies for over 39 years? Many legacies have gone bankrupt and ceased to exist and I am talking BIG ones, while WN continues to truck along.

WN has been at major airports for many years alongside with the legacies, competing at the same cities if not the same airports. This is not new to WN at all.

Finally the slot thing, WN has been dealing with slot for YEARS, When LAX was a slot controlled airport, WN figured a way to get slots at LAX as a new entrance, same for MDW in terms of gate capacity, don't forget SNA, and the LGA and EWR. WN getting slots is not new, and I won't say has come easy or hard for them but WN has been smart to figure how to get what they need as legally as they can. I don't say it's always RIGHT, but they do it and somehow get it done.

Delays? Also not new to WN, don't forget WN served SFO and the old DEN before they pulled out of both airports, this is back in the 80's and early 90's. WN is a lot more experienced than one may give credit for "just being 40 years old".

Quoting peanuts (Reply 15):

WN should loose the lcc label however. They've clearly outgrown it.

I agree, however LCC still means Low Cost, and WN still does things in a Low Cost way. Certainly not the cheapest sometimes (LFC), but WN still does things in a LCC way.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

I have to wonder how WN will fare in EWR. Other LCCs haven't had much success there.

B6: The only carrier to gain any traction in the market has never linked the station to its West Coast hub (LGB), quickly dropped SJU, and is slashing its established Florida routes to fly EWR-BOS. When they traded slots with AA, they could have presumably asked for EWR, but instead wanted DCA and HPN. Guess EWR isn't much of a priority for them!

F9: Never bothered to serve the airport from DEN, even after the YX merger. The token MKE service has seen a bit of larger E-jet service, but the small ERJs continue to prevail on the route.

FL: Pulled out of the market in order to expand from LGA (and DCA) as part of a slot-swap deal with CO.

NK: Pulled out of the market years ago, consolidating its NYC presence at LGA

VX: Stated that they wanted to serve EWR, but couldn't get the slots to do so. They created a huge fuss about getting into ORD, but don't seem nearly as motivated to get into EWR as that market. I imagine they would rather get more JFK slots than into EWR at this point...

So, not to rain on the parade but I do wonder if EWR will do all that well for WN..



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
How about the Florida flights (cut)

We were told that the Florida routes were cut because the planes could be used somewhere else that made more money. Apparently even thought the TPA and MCO flights were full they were packed with RR flyers which we make no money on. I can only hope that when the DOJ approves the aquisitions of FL that we will be one of the first cities to become consolidated with their 4 ATL flights to give us some south access without the drive to BWI or flying to MDW to get south.

Just my 0.02



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineWWTRAVELER99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 17):
Finally the slot thing, WN has been dealing with slot for YEARS, When LAX was a slot controlled airport, WN figured a way to get slots at LAX as a new entrance

Forgive me for asking but when was LAX slot controlled? I have never known LAX to have slot controls. As a new entrant that would have had to be back in about 1984.

I am not saying this was never the case but I am curious as to what time period the slot controls were in effect.

Thank you,

WW


User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4314 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
Could I do that driving from BWI to IAD? Probably, but it's not like I'd be at IAD at 3.

Very possible during the day, as well. You can also take the train to IAD.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 21):
Very possible during the day, as well. You can also take the train to IAD.

There's no train to IAD right now. And there wont' be a train for many years to come.

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 19):
Apparently even thought the TPA and MCO flights were full they were packed with RR flyers which we make no money on.

Which indicates the routes were losers. If the plane is filled with RR flyers, it indicates WN wasn't able to sell tickets on the flights. Sorry, but IAD has been a dud for WN, hence why they only have a token presence.


User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting WWTRAVELER99 (Reply 20):

There was a discussion I read in one of the books about Southwest Airlines where it mentioned that SWA had to gain slots to get flights at LAX. They did some negotiations and whatnot. I do not have an online link as it was read in a book.

When I have more time I will look around to see when I read it and give you the book title and page number for reference, as that is the best I'd be able to do.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
The only carrier to gain any traction in the market has never linked the station to its West Coast hub (LGB), quickly dropped SJU, and is slashing its established Florida routes to fly EWR-BOS.

B6's COO himelf had stated not long before the BOS-EWR route was announced that flying from Boston to New York is stupid. The only reason they are flying it is to keep WN off of it, but now I don't think WN wants to try. Those slots are better off being used for Florida or SJU.



2013 World Series Champions!
25 HPRamper : DCA has the metro stop. The metro should have been extended to IAD years ago as it's a pretty straight shot from where it ends right now, but as far
26 TOMMY767 : True, but it doesn't really help that CO has owned EWR for the last 15-20 years. WN does offer some relief to the higher pricing that CO has plagued
27 peanuts : I completely understand. However, for most of its 39 years it has competed purely by its own strength and unique approach. It hasn't competed by bein
28 Thrust : It's kind of nice to be able to have more mainline options to New York after the cutbacks finally.
29 ScottB : Compare fares on a route WITH WN competition to fares on a route WITHOUT WN competition.
30 EWRandMDW : I would argue that comparing total costs to fly is a better indicator. Other carriers may have lower fares, but after adding on fees for seat selecti
31 frmrCapCadet : I think it is likely that WN could fill all of its EWR flights with people wanting to go to NYC, and specifically mid Manhatten.
32 atrude777 : One of the VERY reasons WN pulled out plus the cost of operating was climbing as well. WN is THE low fare airline, it's a matter that other airlines
33 jfklganyc : WN will do fine out of EWR, just as B6 does fine. The slots are not there to grow, so both airlines will have a pretty token presence (although WN wil
34 slcdeltarumd11 : Costs and delays may be horrible but load and fare wise i think they will do completely fine. It will certainly be good for the general public
35 LAXintl : Would love to know myself when LAX was slot controlled. Only issues I can recall close to slots was the months after the PATCO strike (1981) when all
36 atrude777 : I am still not at home, but will check later tonight when I get home to see what specifically I read. If I am wrong I will retract my statement but I
37 atrude777 : Hey-- I found it, and it is indeed exactly what you are referring to. This comes from the Book "HARD LANDING" 'The Southwest Shuffle' Page 320 as my
38 WWTRAVELER99 : Thank you. I did not know that slots were created with the PATCO strike. WW
39 Flytravel : EWR-BWI would probably be replaced with EWR-ATL. For reaching BUF for example, a BWI connection is more efficient than ATL Or MDW; however for a perso
40 STT757 : I'm a little disappointed there are no big introductory fares from EWR on WN, I'm planning on taking the Wife to the Pacific Northwest on vacation thi
41 Cubsrule : 5-6 seems about right. I can't see ATL having much - if any - more frequency than MDW. Perhaps they'll take a MDW frequency as well for ATL; MDW-EWR
42 STT757 : I think they'll drop EWR-BWI in favor of EWR-ATL, so there's three right there. Plus perhaps one each from Midway and Denver. That would give WN five
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