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QF To "scrap" Planes  
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 962 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20088 times:

Breaking news about QF's response to rising fuel costs etc. Downguaging as well as moving forward retirements, although no word on types at this stage (I'm assuming 734 to go completely and speedier 763?)

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...uel-costs-bite-20110330-1cfa7.html

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20055 times:

They are retiring 2 763s ahead of schedule.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19977 times:

from Aus article: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...t-hit/story-e6frg95x-1226030598335

4x weekly JQ services suspended between Aus and Japan
"a" Qantas service between PER and NRT


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8287 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19960 times:
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The Qantas fleet is unfortunately streched and looking dated because the 787 is late. The 744 also need to be replaced, where are those 77W's when you need them.

User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 962 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19884 times:

Tokyo to be downgraded from 744 to A330 also.

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7168 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19674 times:

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 4):
Tokyo to be downgraded from 744 to A330 also.

Last time that happened the 744 came from the QF26 -AKL-LAX service.. and we gained their 332


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19614 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The Qantas fleet is unfortunately streched and looking dated because the 787 is late. The 744 also need to be replaced, where are those 77W's when you need them.

I don't know if another type is what QF needs right now. They do need to get rid of the older 767s and older 744s. It is the regional routes that are struggling so what they probably need is more JQ A330s to replace the QF 744s. Likewise the prime routes (LHR and LAX) are holding up quite well so they would probably love some more A380s so they could replace the 744s on these routes.

Unfortunately they are now losing money so extra orders are out of the question for the time being. They need to right size as best they can.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19573 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 5):
Last time that happened the 744 came from the QF26 -AKL-LAX service.. and we gained their 332

This time I believe the A333 will come from BNE-SIN which is being temporarily changed to 2 class 744.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19572 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
where are those 77W's when you need them.

In Geoff Dixon's nightmare?



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19524 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 6):
so extra orders are out of the question

They don't need extra orders, they need the planes they have already ordered that are running 3 or more years late. The QF fleet should by now be A380s, B787s & A330, but its not thanks to both A & B.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 4):
Tokyo to be downgraded from 744 to A330 also.

This is also happening to EZE, down grade from B744ER to B744. Speculation on the Aussie AV thread is that the B744ERs & the last 3 B744s are beginning to be reconfigured. This could also be a factor in this case, as well as the presumed traffic drop to Japan.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19327 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 9):
They don't need extra orders, they need the planes they have already ordered that are running 3 or more years late. The QF fleet should by now be A380s, B787s & A330, but its not thanks to both A & B

Well said. QF had planned their fleet and have had to change their business model a couple of times already. Last I heard (and my source has now left so could be old news), they were so furious with Boeing that it may affect their relationship. Having said that, pragmatism and a steep discount would soothe old wounds.



B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19286 times:

I'm waiting for certain people to say Qantas should scrap all A380 aircraft and only fly B777 (which they'd have to get at big cost).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
because the 787 is late. The 744 also need to be replaced, where are those 77W's when you need them.

When the B787 arrives, the B777s are going to be looking outdated. The modern, efficient B787 is the better choice. I'm sure they can withstand some pain for a little while until those are delivered.

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 10):
Well said. QF had planned their fleet and have had to change their business model a couple of times already. Last I heard (and my source has now left so could be old news), they were so furious with Boeing that it may affect their relationship.

Those delays were beginning to bite years ago (according to a well placed source), and now must be even worse. I wouldn't be surprised if QF were furious with both major manufacturers, but especially Boeing with the huge delays to the crucial B787.

[Edited 2011-03-29 18:43:35]

User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19237 times:

Unfortunately, and through no fault of its own, QF has chosen to build its future fleet around two of the most delayed aircraft in commercial aviation history. That has stretched QF's plans quite considerably and aircraft which should have been retired, such as older 744s and 763s, have had to be kept on, with the extra maintenance costs that go with that.

User currently offlineqfa787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19125 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 6):
Likewise the prime routes (LHR and LAX) are holding up quite well so they would probably love some more A380s so they could replace the 744s on these routes.

With demand down and fuel prices high I wouldn't be so sure they would like extra 380s at the moment. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

[Edited 2011-03-29 19:15:44]

User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19061 times:

The 747-400 is still a frontline aircraft for airlines such as BA and CX - both airlines which are adding 77Ws to their fleet. An older plane still has a place in the fleet because of the lesser financing costs. Back in 1982 Qantas had several of their original 747s parked against the fence. Then it occured to them that they were paid off, so it cost to operate them was the fuel and the staffing costs. The maintenance costs were a known item and acceptable (these were JT9D planes).


These were the planes that turned Singapore into a "complex" rather than a hub. Qantas flew PER-SIN and BNE-SIN three times weekly, and their new ADL-SIN service twice weekly. Adelaide had started as a through plane to London.


There is no doubt that a 77W is a more fuel efficient aircraft, but when you include financing costs, a Qantas 747-400 is still very competitive against any newer plane. Similarly, for some airlines, the used SQ 777-200ERs must be just about the bargain of the decade - a good '90s plane with a modern interior for far less than a new 777. (Cathay thought so)


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30618 posts, RR: 84
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19021 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, and through no fault of its own, QF has chosen to build its future fleet around two of the most delayed aircraft in commercial aviation history. That has stretched QF's plans quite considerably and aircraft which should have been retired, such as older 744s and 763s, have had to be kept on, with the extra maintenance costs that go with that.

And yet they did defer deliveries of both (when they thought they would be available), due to low traffic during the GFC.

No argument Airbus and Boeing have fumbled badly in getting the QF Gtroup the planes they have ordered, but the QF Group have changed their minds a few times on when they wanted (at least some of) them, as well.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18930 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 14):
The 747-400 is still a frontline aircraft for airlines such as BA and CX - both airlines which are adding 77Ws to their fleet. An older plane still has a place in the fleet because of the lesser financing costs. Back in 1982 Qantas had several of their original 747s parked against the fence. Then it occured to them that they were paid off, so it cost to operate them was the fuel and the staffing costs. The maintenance costs were a known item and acceptable (these were JT9D planes).

The Northwest Airlines approach to fleet management in the 1990's was very similar, keep the Diesel 9s and 10s going as long as possible as they were paid for and/or cheap used airframes for purchase. Unfortunately in todays market of high oil and consumer driven lowest point pricing the old methods don't seem to work as well. When fuel is 30%+ of your costs then that becomes the driver rather than financing which has a lesser of an impact. QF are now probably crawling up the walls begging for their first 787's, regretting the deferrals, and the delayed and subsequent failures on the 380s aren't helping their case either, and now the regional drop in travel due to natural disasters in Australia, New Zealand and Japan is just another body punch.

I have noticed a big change in ticket prices this year on LAX-SYD routes (across all airlines) but at some point potential customers drop out of the market as prices get too high so QF have to look for efficiencies.

I can't say I am surprised they are looking at airframe retirements and staff cutbacks.

[Edited 2011-03-29 19:29:41]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 18289 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 11):
Those delays were beginning to bite years ago (according to a well placed source), and now must be even worse. I wouldn't be surprised if QF were furious with both major manufacturers, but especially Boeing with the huge delays to the crucial B787.

Perhaps now the team trying to get compensation out of RR for the T900 problems has probably completed most of its work, it can revert to assaulting B over the 787 fracas?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
And yet they did defer deliveries of both (when they thought they would be available), due to low traffic during the GFC.

???Only the deferment of the A380 counted for much, was not the 787 deferment lost in the B delays? Those deferments were a bit odd in view of the original reasons for buying the damned things. In theory just taking them, would have permitted the retirement of older planes that were more costly to operate, so what was the problem in taking them ASAP? Unless it was a lack of funds due to Dicko's strange special dividend when he was trying to sell the farm from underneath us.


User currently offlinezvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 17684 times:

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 13):
With demand down and fuel prices high I wouldn't be so sure they would like extra 380s at the moment. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

With all the crap we've had rammed down our throats here on A.net that airlines would upgauge to lower CASM aircraft if fuel prices were to rise, here is (yet again) evidence of what real airlines do in tough times, which is downgauge to maintain RASM.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30618 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 17526 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Only the deferment of the A380 counted for much, was not the 787 deferment lost in the B delays?

Over a period of about six to eight weeks in April-May 2009 I remember the QF Group moving from wanting the 787-8s as fast as they could get them for JQ in 2010, to then saying they wanted to defer for a good number of months, then switching back to wanting them ASAP for JQ, and then finally cancelling 15 787-9s, moving JQ to 15 787-9s in 2013 instead of 787-8s before then and deferring 15 787-8s for QF to Q4 2014 through 2015 in June. While Boeing had announced a delay around that timeframe, the QF Group stated their decision was driven by the effect of the GFC on QF Group traffic and not the delay.

A year later, with the GFC over and recovery underway, they moved eight 787-8 delievries forward to mid-2012 for JQ, after giving up JQ's five early delivery slots (in the 20s) back in 2009 when they decided JQ would instead use the 787-9. The eight freed JQ A330-200s would then be used to replace the last of QF's 767-300ERs.

I really am not trying to pin blame on the QF Group or imply they don't have a clue (notice how I did not mention they should have bought 77Ws.  Silly ) . The busienss is a very volitile one and they no doubt are responding as necessary and appropriate. And again, Boeing being so unable to get the darn things out the door has certainly contributed to that volatility, along with world events and their impact on fuel prices and traffic flows.

[Edited 2011-03-29 22:05:12]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16410 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
The busienss is a very volitile one and they no doubt are responding as necessary and appropriate. And again, Boeing being so unable to get the darn things out the door has certainly contributed to that volatility, along with world events and their impact on fuel prices and traffic flows.

You could variously accuse QF of being light on their feet, indecisive, behaving in a contradictory and inconsistent fashion, or just put it down to the habits of the Irish - whatever you prefer basically. But it does leave shareholders wondering if they have the faintest idea what they want to do. After the first couple of changes it gets quite hard to figure out what they actually "plan" - assuming that word can be used in relation to the shemozzle!

And as you were so kind about 77Ws I will not even attempt to explore Boeing's contribution to the confusion!!   

The bigger puzzle at the time they did it, was the postponement of the couple of A380 deliveries. Very odd. Now Rolls has added to the complexity of what is going on. Will they EVER sort it all out? I suppose in about 5 years, it will all look very simple. QF must also be kicking themselves it took them so long to figure out how useful the A330s were.


User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 945 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16192 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):

And the reason why QF group made this decision was because the performance targets of the aircraft had been altered and now had less range then previously thought. So thats Boeings fault!



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2630 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16101 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 9):
They don't need extra orders, they need the planes they have already ordered that are running 3 or more years late. The QF fleet should by now be A380s, B787s & A330, but its not thanks to both A & B.

I don't see other airlines losing money because the A380 and 787 are late to leave the barn. (Heck, QF deferred their A380s deliveries IIRC).

As I see it, this situation is mainly down to poor fleet planning by QF.

Many airlines are flying the 763 and/or 744 and still making money. BA, CX, VS, UA, etc

For QF these aircraft are owned and paid for. Any maintenance costs are compensated for by the lack of lease or finance payments on them. If QF can't make a profit from their current fleet, then they can't be utilising their aircraft properly.

Blaming A&B is just playing at passing the buck.

[Edited 2011-03-30 00:00:54]


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinesignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 2996 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16100 times:

Quoting Kent350787 (Thread starter):
QF To "scrap" Planes

And start a code-share agreement with Greyhound...

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30618 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15994 times:
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Quoting JQflightie (Reply 21):
And the reason why QF group made this decision was because the performance targets of the aircraft had been altered and now had less range then previously thought. So thats Boeings fault!

Boeing has consistently stated the 787-8s will meet the contractual guarantees.

And that the QF Group has (at least for the moment) again decided to have JQ operate them now, said guarantee would logically be within what JQ needs to perform the missions planned, otherwise QF would put them on domestic ops to replace the 767-300ERs instead of JQ's A330-200s.


25 Airvan00 : Who said anything about losing money. This is all about staying in profit. The airline has estimated that the natural disasters in Queensland, New Ze
26 JQflightie : they will be on domestic ops aswel as international.. JQ can perform the current and future ops with the new A332HGW's , JQ will be getting the first
27 gemuser : That's exactly when you want the lowest aircraft/seat cost. And who said there's demand is down on SYD/MEL-LHR/LAX? I really, really doubt that. Abou
28 Ben175 : Ugh, so no direct PER-NRT anymore, leaving SYD as the only QF metal destination. Will we see this service back in the future or is it gone for good?
29 Post contains images JQflightie : its only suspended, not axed... yet.. maybe it will rtn as a JQ flight.... grrrrr
30 zeke : If you have a look at the time other large aircraft came into service, the A380 and 787 are not that different from other wide bodies. While QF not a
31 Post contains links mariner : As others have pointed out, Qantas is making a profit: http://www.northernstar.com.au/story.../qantas-1h-profit-soars-four-fold/ "QANTAS Airways prof
32 ThomasCook : Hello, It is 2 B767s which will head for early retirement. These are the only aircraft being 'scrapped'. ThomasCook
33 Post contains images JQflightie : I just wish people would get over QF not ordering 777's, its in the past, its never going to happen now, so go to Bunnings, buy some wood, build a bri
34 zvezda : No, that moved had been planned for years. The 10x weekly 777-300ER service was ever only temporary (which I correctly predicted at the time) and due
35 Ben175 : I actually wouldn't mind to see JQ taking over PER-NRT. I mean, the StarClass J product is better than the current offering IMO! Plus, a JQ 332 would
36 JQflightie : haha no way!! I love the 'Dreamtime' seat on the 763 International's soooo comfy!! I could sleep in that all day!
37 Post contains images lightsaber : However, QF was to build around the 789 which wasn't due yet. However, I believe much of it has to do with: Unfortunately, Zvezda is right. High oil=
38 Baroque : Mostly it appears because the style of their announcement seems to have been a bit of an invitation for insertion of rough ends of pineapples in unco
39 jfk777 : You don't replace a 744 with a 787-9. Many airlines have replaced their 744 with 77W's, if tht is a "mistake" some of the worlds best airlines look "
40 zvezda : I have to disagree with you on that point. Many, if not most, A340s replaced 747s. UA, for example, ordered A350-900s to replace their 747-400s. I'll
41 aerorobnz : I haven't either, but I have had many pleasant sectors on a 763... completely and utterly. SQ have everything planned decades in advance or it doesn'
42 Post contains links Baroque : Or an alternative answer to your question Mariner in: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...ith-the-levers-20110330-1cgds.html On the face of it Qant
43 United_fan : Aren't the 744ER's destined for DFW ?
44 zeke : Really ? not a single press release, and not a single timetable published "years" in advance show anything remotely close to what is being claimed. Q
45 na : Its really about time QF retires its old 763s. Most are 20 years or older. With so many 787s flooding the market soon, scrapping a few 767s cant be a
46 Zkpilot : Maybe the others, but the only reason why NZ is now taking a big profit hit is due to the CHC and Japan earthquakes. Sure the high oil price is causi
47 Post contains images lightsaber : Hey, one more who hasn't gone TATL in the 763ER! Somehow, I've always flown the 747 (741, 742, and 744. I missed the 743...) I've flown quite a few D
48 cedarjet : On a recent trip to California, I saw at least two, maybe three Qantas 747-400ERs in storage in Victorville and / or Mojave (I think VCV). I understan
49 na : What you saw werent 744ERs, but the older two ex-MAS 744s with GE-engines.
50 mariner : I used the rough end of the pineapple about a very specific comment - that somehow Qantas had shillied and shallied about the 787 order. But if Austr
51 Stitch : All my TATL trips have ended up on 747s, L1011s(!) or 777s.
52 gemuser : Eventually. The presumed plan is DFW, JNB & EZE and that will keep all 6 busy. After DFW goes A380/B789, who knows. Gemuser
53 Post contains images qfa787380 : Have you checked the load factor on this sector when switched to 380s? Not that great is what I have heard. Wonder why CX don't just order a whole lo
54 Baroque : Agreed that first Airbus and then Boeing have lead QF a merry old dance in providing the planes that they ordered. But it does seem that QF of late c
55 Post contains links mariner : Then we have a very different view of it. I don't think telling the truth or explaining what is going on, is raising alarms. It may "alarm" non-fianc
56 Baroque : Well of course you know you "have me" - in principle. But it is the way that QF puts out its information. I should really sit down and rewrite that p
57 mariner : As I said, we obviously see this very differently. The very fact that Qantas is being positive about the annual results says to me that they are a lo
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