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AF 447 Wreckage Found...  
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3040 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 80561 times:


Hopefully the black boxes will also be located.....

short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
253 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9315 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 80492 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Hopefully the black boxes will also be located.....

I am impressed that after 2 years they found it and that they kept looking for it.

German news reported that the search so far costs € 9.2 Million. That's a lot, but I am sure it is worth it, especially for the families of those who died. Then they know what happened.


User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 80187 times:

This is really incredible. If the black boxes are found, will this be able to fill in all the missing pieces about what happened to this plane?

User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9315 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 80085 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
If the black boxes are found, will this be able to fill in all the missing pieces about what happened to this plane?

Depends in what conditions they are and what is remained on the black boxes. It will help the investigators a lot for sure. I keep my fingers crossed.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 79970 times:

What type of recorders did this plane have? Would corrosion not be a factor after all this time?

I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9315 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 79953 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 4):
What type of recorders did this plane have? Would corrosion not be a factor after all this time?

Cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder are usually in modern airliners installed.
Corrosion? Well, after 2 years in salt water isn't the best condition for it. But they are well build to protect the date. But it is no guarantee that the data are safe.... We can only hope that they are.


User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2345 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 79804 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Depends in what conditions they are and what is remained on the black boxes.

Considering what these units are built to survive, AF447 was likely a relatively benign environment. Finding them is the hard part.

User currently offlineBA6590 From UK - England, joined Jul 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 79266 times:

I never thought I would read that headline. Its been a long time coming.
I really hope they can retrieve enough info to finally give us an answer to what caused the crash.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Depends in what conditions they are and what is remained on the black boxes.

Are the black boxes designed to survive this long in salt water conditions?

User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 79293 times:

More details:

According to BEA the debris found includes the 2 engines of the Airbus and the debris site is relatively dense so they think they have found the main crash site of the Airbus. The debris site has a measurement of 500 by 300 meters.

[Edited 2011-04-03 23:16:28]

[Edited 2011-04-03 23:19:52]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 33446 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 79142 times:
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They're likely digital recorders and not tape, correct? That might help them hold up better...

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 8193 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 78990 times:

Are they using those mini subs like for Titanic?

[Edited 2011-04-03 23:27:50]

User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 78949 times:

The BEA press conference is due for 1300GMT. They had expressed confidence that the CVR and FDR could be recovered. The retrieval of debris will be done in the fifth search phase. This phase was done by vessel Alucia, the Deep Ocean research craft. Also recovered is a part of the wing.

The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2880 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 78668 times:

Good news.
We need answers to this crash. There are too many A330s plying our skies for this tragedy to go unsolved.

User currently offlineb757lvr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 78467 times:

This is excellent news. Here's hoping that the flight recorders are recovered in good shape. Finally some more answers to the mystery that is flight 447.

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 6330 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 78361 times:

I said this in the first thread and will say it again here as it is the most important thing about this find:

Beyond the mission and need to discover what exactly happened to the flight and why it crashed, once that point is achieved I believe the site will become what it most certainly is:

A grave.

There will need to be a determination of how much disturbance is appropriate. Debris will be collected and it is anybody's guess how much will need to be retrieved before a solid determination can be made (perhaps all of it) but ultimately this site is the final resting place for 177 people.

It is terrific that AF477 is found, kudos to the team that pursued this and found her.

May all those that are now "found" Rest In Please.


[Edited 2011-04-03 23:45:49]

I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4530 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 77489 times:

My congratulations to all those who worked so hard to find it. I assume this is a triumpf of clever software that filtered the data recorded after the crash again and again, narrowed down the location, looking forward to more information.

User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 77220 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
I am impressed that after 2 years they found it and that they kept looking for it.

A great joint effort by the French BEA, Air France and Airbus, who collectively agreed to fund the 3rd and 4th search phases. money well spent in my opinion.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 4):
What type of recorders did this plane have? Would corrosion not be a factor after all this time?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
They're likely digital recorders and not tape, correct? That might help them hold up better...

New DFDR units. Had they been tape the data would be corrupted, with solid-state memory there's a pretty good chance that the data recorders may be readable. Even after they are retrieved, it will take a long time before the memories ok to read though, better be slow and safe rather than hasty and damage the memory!

User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 76678 times:

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 16):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
I am impressed that after 2 years they found it and that they kept looking for it.

A great joint effort by the French BEA, Air France and Airbus, who collectively agreed to fund the 3rd and 4th search phases. money well spent in my opinion.


Just incredible, hats off to all involved, that's quite a feat in that depth of ocean.


The chalice not my son
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 76607 times:

This is a great news.
It is really a triumph of mankind. We are not ready to give up and quit - even when all circimstances appear to be against us.
This achievement is hard to overestimate.
Congratulations to all men and women invoved in those operations.

User currently offlineAdmiralRitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 76141 times:

Is possible that the US navy knew pretty well where AF447 went down?

Does a US attack sub have enough equipment to pin point a disturbance several thousand miles away?

Not Implying a conspiracy. I think that the USA was always hoping that the european
search teams would have success. mabye the US was holding out to make the finding seem more natural
...you know try and try again.

If the US knew the possition of AFF447 and relented and gave hints to the French recently then the
US has given away some information of the level of our electronics/sonar tracking capability
in the atlantic, in a good cause obcourse, If I am right, I hope the french can keep secrets

User currently offlinedetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 75432 times:

Quoting AdmiralRitt (Reply 19):
Is possible that the US navy knew pretty well where AF447 went down?

Are you serious?

Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 75344 times:

Quoting AdmiralRitt (Reply 19):
Is possible that the US navy knew pretty well where AF447 went down?


Does a US attack sub have enough equipment to pin point a disturbance several thousand miles away?


I thought it would have been nice to swing a USN attack sub thru the area after the crash and locate the beacons. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

If the beacons were non-functional (or muted) then the USN wouldn't have any luck originally anyways.

It is great they found some wreckage. How do they know it is AF447?

The black boxes are way out of their design spec - any data recovered is a bonus. Hope the memory chips stayed water tight and can shed more light on this mystery.

User currently offlineafriwing From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 75027 times:

Great effort and money well spent for sure

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 8):
The debris site has a measurement of 500 by 300 meters

Hmmm .. so at least this indicates the aircraft hit the water in "almost" one piece. The question is how far is this site from where the tail fin was found .. I know BEA's press conference is only a few hours away but I just couldn't help speculating   

Quoting AdmiralRitt (Reply 19):
If the US knew the possition of AFF447 and relented and gave hints to the French recently then the
US has given away some information of the level of our electronics/sonar tracking capability
in the atlantic, in a good cause obcourse, If I am right, I hope the french can keep secrets

   oh pleeeeeeese .. can we have a nausea-free thread here .. I rolled my eyes till I fainted when I read this   . I'm not questioning the US' ability .. but in no way would any establishment be so mean as to withold such vital information for 2 years .. let's keep this thread objective please

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 5012 posts, RR: 78
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 74213 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 14):
A grave.

Yes, but , according to the French Minister for transportation, (and I cite : "...more than remaons have been found : we have bodies...and forensic identifications are possible..."
...which makes me think about two developments :
1/- It seems that the recovery of these bodies would be a priority. The families will request it.
2/- To find "bodies" two years after the accident can only mean one thing : A major part of the fuselage has been discovered... which in turn suggests that, as the recorders are in the fuselage, the chances of finding and recovering them have really shot up.

Now, the gathering of some specialised recovery equipment has apparently started and phase 5 should start in a few weekls.

Contrail designer
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3447 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 74014 times:

"Hmmm .. so at least this indicates the aircraft hit the water in "almost" one piece. The question is how far is this site from where the tail fin was found .. I know BEA's press conference is only a few hours away but I just couldn't help speculating!"

IIRC there was other wreckage with the fin so it's unlikely that the this would suggest the fin came off in flight rather that it drifted in the tide in the 3 days between the crash and it being found.

With regards to the suggestions the USN wouldn't reveal the location of the crash because it would allow everyone to know the capability of their boats, I'm not sure that I buy that. The RN has been showing off about the capability of the radar on the new Daring class boats recently (it's claimed that these boats can monitor ship movements in New York harbour whilst moored in the Thames - several thousand miles away!) so it can't be too much of a secret.

25 pylon101 : I guess no present Navy/AF/space equipment have an ability to help in circumstances like these. It's a not missile launch or strong electro-magnetic i
26 chuchoteur : Actually a french attack sub was re-routed to the area during the 1st search phase and got some data, however they could not pinpoint the signal sour
27 Post contains images lh526 : Kudos and hats off indeed! I wonder though: The CVR and FDR is located in the tail (correct me if I'm wrong), seeing the the vertical stabilizer sepa
28 a380900 : Doesn't that imply people are still seated with seat belts on? I'm not a doctor but I find it hard to believe the bodies would be identifiable otherw
29 Pihero : We're talking DNA identification techniques, mostly Please, no graphic details...the families might well be reading this thread. And the ghouls are n
30 rfields5421 : And so did the French Navy, the Brazilian Navy and the aircraft accident investigation authorities. Where the plane went down was never a real questi
31 AustrianZRH : Le Monde reported "des moteurs et de certains éléments de la voilure" have been found. If my French hasn't left me completely, that would translate
32 chuchoteur : ... actually those are the elements used for identification that the wreckage is indeed that of AF447. Engines, parts of the wing and the landing gea
33 trystero : These are good news. It will take some time, but hopefully all questions will be answered. Don´t know if there is any possibility for the remains to
34 JA8119 : If that's true, then probably the black boxes at the tail are not at that site. How deeply did they search at the position where the tail fin was fou
35 Aircellist : I can reassure you on your French... You are right about that sentence.
36 AustrianZRH : Thanks for clarification. Let's hope for the best that the data is still usable and some light can be brought into the mystery of that crash...
37 SEPilot : As to the identification issue, how many jetliners have gone down in that part of the Atlantic, let alone A330's? I think if you see any part that eve
38 MD11Engineer : The moment they´ll recover any rotable aircraft part from the wreckage (this means a part with a serial number) they can confirm 100% that it is the
39 Bongodog1964 : I believe its the Astute class submarines which are claimed to have this impressive detection range, they can't however detect ships leaving New York
40 elmothehobo : I am quite surprised they managed to find the wreckage, considering the depth and length of time that has passed. There is a precedent: Project Azoria
41 Post contains images bj87 : To be fare they don't really have a choice. As awful as it might sound finding the human remains is probably not the main reason for the massive amou
42 nordair737242c : could you expand on your comment a little here...
43 b741 : This just shows a case of good government in action, to search for 2 years.
44 VC10er : There needs to be a memorial both in Rio and France. This horrible incident cannot be forgotten. Where are "they" (I dont know who I mean by they, IAT
45 sebolino : Press release in 15 minutes ...
46 atnight : I'm very happy that they finally found it. Congrats to Airbus and the French Air Force. Finding this wreckage will hopefully give the investigators th
47 Miercat : Where is the the press release Sebolino, either in french or english?
48 Post contains links Severnaya : Here is the announcement of a press conference. It might be there as well where the press release may be posted. http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig
49 Post contains images Cysafan : It 's very bone chilling to hear that this wreckage of the attractive-looking Airbus has been found in the bottom of the cold Atlantic Ocean..
50 Post contains links Slinky09 : Interestingly I read a quote from the French Minister for Environment and Transport here saying that part of the cabin had been located, and bodies we
51 Halophila : With all respect to those lost in this terrible tragedy and with respect to those family members who may read this. The deep ocean is a very preserva
52 mpsrent : The efforts of Air France and Airbus helps instill consumer confidence in the aviation industry as the airline and manufacturer work to find the cause
53 sebolino : I can't find anything for the moment ...
54 Post contains links sxb : First pictures http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-diver...ieurs-corps-04-04-2011-1392938.php http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-diver...-de-l-avion-04-04-2011
55 trystero : The contra-rotating propellers of the TU-95 are famous for being detected by submarine sonars...
56 breiz : You guys have to see the difference between a radar (em waves in the air) and a sonar (acoustic waves in water). As you may know, the earth surface i
57 ogre727 : I couldnt believe my eyes when I read the tittle of this thread. Maybe its because I am going through some rough times... but reading about this made
58 Post contains images chuchoteur : Phase 5 is now being launched, using recovery ROVs (much more expensive than those used for the Phase 4 search). This will be paid for by the French
59 Desh : I was thinking about that - just saw the documentry on Netflix. However, I think this task with AF 447 is much easier if anything, in that the sub wa
60 EZEIZA : Although it is indeed a great effort, I have the feeling they are not doing this becuse they are nice people. Unless they can find the reasons for th
61 Post contains links and images Baroque : Usually works. Only fails when there is some other factor at work as when Lord Kelvin got the age of the earth badly wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/w
62 Kaiarahi : According to Le Monde, citing a 'source close to the investigation', the wreckage is contained in a 300m x 500m area. Again according to Le Monde, the
63 spacecadet : Which makes me wonder why they didn't find it before. Many people have been saying literally for years that the main difficulty in locating this wrec
64 rfields5421 : When I was stationed on a SOSUS base, we could give NASA locations within 3 or 4 miles of where their first and second stage rockets impacted. Also w
65 Post contains links rfields5421 : CNN is quoting a French minister that bodies will be recovered and brought up from the wreckage http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe...reckage/index.h
66 rfields5421 : The terrain is rough mountainous terrain. But even in mountains there are valleys and meadows - some of a pretty fair size - even in underwater mount
67 Post contains links Aesma : Great news ! I must admit I had lost hope. Yes and no. They have some capabilities, but during the first 2 or 3 phases they had state of the art subs
68 rfields5421 : I want to remind everyone of something which is being stated wrongly in the media about the AF447 crash. I've seen several reports that there were no
69 Aesma : Well, the media will stay the media. I just watched France 24 talking about the A320 that crashed off the coast of Brazil...
70 Kaiarahi : They're back in.
71 KC135TopBoom : Since the area of the debris field is (relitively) small, this tells me the A-330 hit the water in a near vertical attitude. This could mean a nose do
72 moose135 : Based on earlier debris found, investigators believe it hit the water belly first in a relatively flat attitude, with little forward speed.
73 Post contains images Kaiarahi : From the BEA interim report: "Visual examination showed that the airplane was not destroyed in flight; it appears to have struck the surface of the s
74 rl757pvd : I would be curious to see what they come up with, as I really can only see two scenarios possible with this one being neither. 1) high velocity impac
75 Post contains links mestrugo : the online version of elpais.com has an eerie picture of one of the main landing gears resting on the seabed. They also say they've found bodies and h
76 comorin : It looks lie it'll be another 3 weeks before the salvage vessels will reach the crash zone ( post on pprune). Three ships, including the Ares have bee
77 Aesma : France was always part of NATO, it just left the integrated military command, and is back in thanks to Sarkozy (few agree with him on this, and with
78 chuchoteur : autonomous underwater vehicles piloted from the surface. ... indeed, hit in line of flight, high vertical speed. The debris field tends to suggest it
79 Post contains links GBan : Images of crash site: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images.du.site.php and todays presentation: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.44
80 Baroque : So sad to see them, but better than never being found. Virtually no sediment.
81 Glideslope : Hopefully some closure for the families, and AB now. A BIG hats off to the people at Woods Hole who came up with the new "Deep Sea Current Model" Fair
82 nycdave : Question about digital vs. analog FDR/CVRs... My understanding has always been that sometimes analog (tape) can be better than digital for long-term p
83 Kaiarahi : It looks like the wreckage is only about 5km from the last reported position, which would suggest (although other scenarios are possible) very high ve
84 Centre : The tail fin was found floating on the surface, and not drowned under the surface, thus the possibility of being moved away from the crash site. When
85 WingedMigrator : A 20 x 20 km plain is more than a "meadow". The terrain was always known to be partially mountainous, despite exaggerations to the contrary... we had
86 rfields5421 : BEA reached their conclusion because of analysis of the recovered wreckage. Large items from the forward part of the cabin, the aft part of the cabin
87 famfflores : By looking at images of the landing gear, is it possible to draw conclusions about its position prior to impact, that is, if it was lowered prior to
88 Glideslope : Had the same thought. The gear could have been down if they were trying to recover from a flat spin.[Edited 2011-04-04 10:13:20]
89 b777fan : You have to be careful about confusing media and method. Digital data can be stored on magnetic media (tape, disk etc.) as easily as analog data and
90 jsquared : Chilling images... I still can't believe how intact the tires are. How would having the gear down help in such a situation?
91 CuriousFlyer : It would be good to see more images, we cannot understand much from these. But I am really surprised large pieces survived the crash. Had the crew los
92 Post contains links canoecarrier : In case anyone is interested: Wreckage locations on the surface including the last transmission location (Phase 1) http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/fli
93 osteogenesis : This basically means that it probably hit the watter in one piece and that it did not disintegrate in mid air.
94 Pihero : Your theory is only valid if you assumed that they went in a straight line from the last reported to the crash site - and that there was no current (
95 rfields5421 : No - you can see substantial fragmentation of the aircraft fuselage parts, the gear mountings, and that the cowlings came off the engine. Part of the
96 famfflores : Thanks!
97 aerobus12 : If lightning strike still is a possibility, my brother, who is an avionician claims that if they find cables or parts of the electronic system, an exa
98 Desh : Not trying to make this graphic - but given some previous comments regarding the remains - would it be fair to deduct that even though the aircraft h
99 Kaiarahi : Help me out - I'm not Mandala!! My Herc days were over 30 years ago. I'm assuming (perhaps I'm wrong) that "accélération" would be better translate
100 ogre727 : I thought Coloumbia desintegrated while on descent to earth... no?
101 United1 : It did he probably is referring to the Challenger accident.
102 Pihero : Please stop the macho topgun theories on arcraft maneuvering : Flat spins are possible on combat aircraft or aerobatic airplanes which share a common
103 rfields5421 : The condition of the bodies recovered after the crash indicated there was no evacuation. I've seen no medical reports on the cause of death of the ap
104 flipdewaf : My theory, not totally uninformed but not made of hard facts I can nail down, the freezing probe situation arose and they lost all speed data and fle
105 Post contains images Pihero : Are you really trying to impress me... ? Because you've just managed to do so ! Yes, that's the only explanation that fits, IMHO. * Acceleration* is
106 Desh : Thanks !
107 PlanesNTrains : That was the most plausible conclusion that I remember coming from the previous threads. Very tragic that they may have "almost" made it if the theor
108 Post contains links rfields5421 : Can you provide a link to that report? The Dec 17, 2009 interim reports states clearly - And http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e2.en/pdf/f-
109 spacecadet : Don't confuse the data with the medium. Digital data is either there or it isn't, but the medium that contains it is still "analog" in that it is a p
110 Post contains links Pihero : Yes, as it is the most technically complete prelim, here it is If I may : Notne of your quotes is exclusive of a forward movement as they only relate
111 rfields5421 : Correct - see page 32 of the December 2009 Interim Report #2 for more details about injuries observed. Link in my post above.
112 rfields5421 : That is the report listed on the BEA site as the Dec 7, 2009 Interim 2 Report. And yes, it does say the fuselage frames recovered at the vertical sta
113 Numero4 : That was my first understanding as well, and I agree with the proposed wording. They implied the "important acceleration" was in absolute value, whic
114 Post contains links sxb : Can anyone explain which part of the wing is presented in this picture? http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/wing.jpg[Edited 2011-04-04 1
115 CuriousFlyer : It looks like the main part of the left wing.
116 Post contains links and images Speedbird741 : Dark grey area. Notice the "Do not walk outside this area." View Large View MediumPhoto © Ken Iwelumo - Global Aviation Images Speedbird741[Edited 2
117 Kaiarahi : I wasn't, but thank you. How do turbofans behave in a dive/spiral dive - I'm only familiar with props/turboprops where the overspeed is usually obvio
118 boacvc10 : The main landing gear photograph in the presentation makes it look like it could be unbelievably salvagable and reusable - it is that shiny/clean/und
119 andz : Lots of parallels wth SA 295 here.... Crashed 28 November 1987 in the Indian Ocean. Debris field located at a depth of 4,400m (14,435ft) on 28 January
120 Aloha717200 : Is it possible that wind shear alone could have brought this plane down from cruise to impact? If they're saying this aircraft was relatively intact a
121 canoecarrier : It would be interesting to plot the distance between the last known location and the impact site, factor in the last known cruise altitude/speed. It
122 tugger : I must have missed it but I haven't seen something that shows the original searches versus where it has been found. They can't still be inflated, not
123 zeke : Solid state digital recorders, they are about the best you can get on the market, they store hundreds more parameters than the legal bare minimum. Th
124 canoecarrier : You're going to have to look at the relief on the ocean floor to find that out on your own. The second link and 3rd link pretty much are oriented the
125 Post contains links United787 : http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe...ce.jet.explainer/index.html?hpt=C1 The media gots a lot of well deserved criticism on this website ... but this
126 spacecadet : You quoted the first and second link; you need to look at the second and third, and the specific pages referenced. You will see a direct comparison b
127 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Correct, you may remember TW-800, a B-741 that did break-up in flight (due to the centerwing fuel tank explosion) was spread over 2 large and 1 small
128 canoecarrier : It's a little hard to get any specific distances from the maps in the links I provided above, but it appears that the crash site (June 1 location) is
129 zeke : I would have to agree, the only point I would disagree with is his statement that there was a "massive fault" with the aircraft. I suspect that this
130 comorin : Given the extremely high hydrostatic pressure down there, the air in the tires must have been squeezed out during descent and replaced with sea water,
131 Pihero : Count me in that club... although we need to qualify the fact that in all probability, the management of the flight had been taken over by the two co
132 tugger : Yeah, I know. I was just hoping for one map that made it simple and obvious: "We searched here, here, here, and there on the first, second, and third
133 peh : If my body was down there, I would care how many people walked over it to find out why I died.
134 Post contains images KELPkid : If I'm not mistaken, though the Glomar Explorer (the ship the CIA financed the construction of for the recovery of the K-129) is still in existence
135 Kaiarahi : Tell me about it!!! The worst experience of my life was getting into a spiral dive in a Herc under a thunderhead on a tight circling approach into Sa
136 canoecarrier : It's a deep sea drillship now, so not really still equipped for that kind of undertaking. As far as figuring out what the sink rate was for the plane
137 ruscoe : With the benefit of hindsight it may be that the situation the pilots found themselves in was recoverable, but there is a point where the vast majori
138 WingedMigrator : The recorder units are certified (by testing) to survive: shock - 3400 g penetration - 500 lb dropping from 10 ft on a 1/4" diameter pin static crush
139 Post contains links stasisLAX : Just received this information in a alert to my smartphone from the New York Times website. It includes the photos discussed above. “Bodies were fou
140 Post contains links Desh : Its in service , though I dont think you would need that - imagine the parts are quite light and not that large and heavy as big as a russian nuclear
141 Mortyman : I doubt that the USA has anything that is hidden from the world in this respect. The large majority of US inteligence gathering and lisning posts are
142 kaneporta1 : Looks like the fixed leading edge of the wing loking at the inside of the front spar. Those protrusions from the spar look very much like the slat tr
143 b777fan : It has happened that in retrospect, a certain sequence of actions could have saved a doomed plane. However, that doesn't make it pilot error. The lon
144 zhiao : Can anyone confirm this: When in extreme G force, passengers will automatically pass out very quickly, correct? So basically with this crash, it seems
145 PPVRA : Any reason to believe acceleration was greater than gravity? I would think any lateral Gs would be the the problem, other than the free fall.[Edited
146 YYZatcboy : I doubt that's true. I remember seeing on a documentary that the crew of Columbia were likely still alive and conscious when the remains of the shuttl
147 zhiao : But if engines were on, then surely it was diving faster than gravity, no? Also, how fast would the free fall have been if we assume there was just a
148 LVZXV : That F-GZCP hit the sea nose-up, with a high vertical acceleration reminds me of the Aeroflot A310 that crashed in Siberia 17 years ago. While the inp
149 tugger : If there are sustained (i.e. continuous) g-forces in excess of 5 most people will pass out unless they are doing specific actions to keep blood in th
150 zhiao : But the Q remains: Why are people saying here that the nose dive was not greater than gravity if the engines were on? ------ I know it's a movie, but
151 tugger : Ummmm, why are you implying there was a nose dive? And the why you have phrased your question does not make sense. We simply do not know what attitud
152 manny : Its a great find. Helps the families bring closure to this incident. Now how does this discovery impact the man slaughter charges that were brought ag
153 Kaiarahi : That's a function of the French (and most European) judicial systems which are quite different from the U.S. - the juge d'instruction has an investig
154 SolarFlyer22 : Yeah there are no subs to be watching in that region of the world. Finding two large, metallic engines on the seabed would not be out of the question
155 Gonzalo : And those were ( the Ethiopian was in some way ) ditching attempts. In a less controlled impact the things are much worst. At higher speeds hitting t
156 spacecadet : Passengers won't "automatically" pass out under the kind of G-forces that would even be possible for an airliner to withstand (and don't forget, this
157 Aesma : Apparently the determination has already been done. Some people wanted the remains left there, others wanted to get them back. It has been decided to
158 Post contains links rfields5421 : Look at page 32 of the Interim 2 BEA report for a description of the injuries to the passengers. http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e2.en/pd
159 airtechy : Would it be correct to say that if the accident aircraft had been a Boeing 707 and the year 1960, the only effect the (possibly) frozen pitot tubes wo
160 rfields5421 : An autopilot does not always include an autothrottle device, though of course modern jetliners do have fully integrated Flight Management Systems whi
161 airtechy : I agree completely. It just seems that locking the throttles and having the autopilot ignore the airspeed would be better then totally disconnecting.
162 Numero4 : If they were already in a spiral dive when the ice melted, it is plausible to believe they either didn't trust their instruments anymore (has happene
163 zeke : I am not sure if I get your point. The aircraft was in straight and level flight to start with, what did they need to "recover" from ? A stall in the
164 WingedMigrator : The French word for acceleration is "acceleration" and it means the exact same thing. It was used in this context as meaning high g-forces, irrespect
165 tdscanuck : They're watertight...2 years in deep ocean isn't particularly corrosive (it's really cold). Even if the cases are breached, the media shouldn't reall
166 Post contains links BEG2IAH : I started typing a long response, but this source is good enough: http://physics.info/acceleration/ In short, any change in velocity (with respect to
167 AR385 : Some of the French in one of the articles quoted so far said the plane crashed "en ligne de vol " in a flat attitude. If that is the case, the entire
168 WingedMigrator : Except at night in the heart of a massive cumulonimbus cloud.
169 DocLightning : I'm skeptical. As decomposition takes place, material from different bodies will diffuse around, meaning that bodies might have DNA from various othe
170 BEG2IAH : Would teeth be enough for positive id or the analysis would need to include other tissue? Thanks. BEG2IAH
171 Stitch : I have not been following the reports too heavily, but it sounds like the bodies and body parts are in a fairly decent state of preservation so it sh
172 XT6Wagon : freefall is 0G. while its possible that the plane fell faster than freefall It wouldn't have felt like much as it can only power itself along its own
173 Pihero : The report never mentioned that. It is just an assumption derived from the discovery of the captain's body. There are other explanations to that disc
174 Post contains images garpd : The report did not say that at all. It's very possible the Captain floated up from the sinking wreckage. I doubt the flight deck will be in one piece
175 DocLightning : I just read that and I'm surprised, but I'm hardly an expert on deep-sea preservation of human remains. I'd imagine something would have nibbled them
176 Slinky09 : One of the interviews given by a French Transport Minister alluded to a section of the aeroplane body being found relatively intact - the cockpit sec
177 Post contains images sebolino : Actually, every change of speed vector is called acceleration - vector a = d(vector v)/dt. I don't even know if you call that a vector in English ...
178 AR385 : You are right. I confused "cabin crew" with "cockpit" crew.
179 Pihero : NO. The word *habitacle* in French refers to a section that can be "inhabited". The passenger cabin is a *habitacle*. Yes, that's my theory.Taking th
180 affirmative : In the previous threads following the disappearance of AF447 there was, obviously, speculation about the cause and chain of events. While theories as
181 garpd : I'm with ya on that, all the way. I also hope that does not happen.
182 Post contains links btblue : The engines - if the aircraft went nose down/first wouldn't the blades be bent backwards? From the pictures, they appear to be in part, from what I ca
183 Gonzalo : I think that's not possible. If I remember correctly, in the first threads after the accident happened in 2009, we all agree that the ACARS showed th
184 garpd : What if their instruments did not indicate such or had been so erratic as to cause the crew not to trust them? I'm not speculating, merely pointing o
185 MD11Engineer : Modern aircraft HF (as well as maritime sets) sets are "dumbed down" and widely automated to allow flight crew to operate the set with minimum distra
186 zeke : Has all those, plus TAT probes (i.e. indicated mach number). Neither of those pose a problem, still wings level around 2.5 degree nose up attitude an
187 garpd : Assuming of course the pilots are not being bombarded with conflicting warnings and data. One only has to look at the Birgen Air and AeroPeru acciden
188 affirmative : Sure, there would be lots of warnings given that the ADIRS didn't agree with the pitot reading as well as them defaulting to the ALT LAW. But once th
189 zeke : That is not the way multi-crew aircraft are flown, where there is a problem, one person just flies the aircraft, the other runs the checklists. The p
190 garpd : That's what the text book says and most likley what the training teaches you. But as the Birgen Air and AeroPeru accidents show, the proverbial can h
191 KFlyer : I beg your pardon, I didn't have time to go through all the posts. But from the landing gear's photo, is there any clue as to whether the gear has bee
192 Aesma : If it had been, I doubt it would be found with the rest of the plane.
193 flipdewaf : LOL, nav has a new account. Very well could have tried that but if you encounter significant windshear you may have the constant N1 and pitch angle b
194 Speedbird741 : Speedbird741
195 zeke : You are very quick to dismiss other peoples point of view, as long as yours is the only one that is acceptable. I believe in both cases those acciden
196 sebolino : Forgive my ignorance Zeke, but what is N1 ? Thanks
197 zeke : Just the rotational speed of the front fan on a modern jet engine, normally expressed as a percentage, however the maximum N1 limit for an engine if
198 tdscanuck : Why do you say that? A spiral dive is so treacherous partly because there are very few cues...you're in 1 g flight with a constant bank angle. That's
199 garpd : I have not dismissed anyones opinions. It does not matter how many hours you have on the type, you were not in the cockpit of that A330 that night so
200 bikerthai : Saw this on the PBS program Frontline. Glad to see that Zeke corroborate with the "experts" on the show.:D The program also stated that when the auto
201 breiz : This is precisely what puzzles me when put together with significant vertical component at impact. The vertical component could suggest unsuccessful
202 wn700driver : Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I just don't see that happening. EADS & AF have so much spotlight on them over this issue that any hint of pla
203 Baroque : That picture and one of the engine suggests very little sedimentation. Some of the wing are more difficult to judge, but the material there that coul
204 sebolino : I heard today at the radio, that the BEA (Inquiry and Analysis Bureau) in charge of the inquiry, has admitted having lost much time (nearly 2 years in
205 chuchoteur : Pot luck... had they searched close by and not found the plane, they would have been accused of not searching far enough... it's a pretty big search
206 zeke : Just IAS (pitot/static) and Mach (TAT) on the PFD, the unreliable airspeed checklist asks the pilots to monitor the GPS page if the backup speed syst
207 sebolino : Very interesting, I didn't know that. It explains why the BEA keep saying that pitot probe failure alone can't explain the crash. I suppose that an e
208 Post contains images mafi29 : I know this is a little off topic, but it was mentioned several times in this thread, so can someone help me out here, please? As far as I know, in b
209 sebolino : I believe it's the exact same definition in English and French. It's just another definition in everyday language: acceleration is usually used to de
210 comorin : I've always wondered about this: how come the engines spool up quickly at start of take-off on the runway but take 45 seconds when airborne? Thanks.
211 breiz : That was my meaning, Zeke. The Captain, then in his bunk, did not feel something wrong was happening or had no time to rejoin the cockpit. This indic
212 garpd : My guess it's something to do with the thinner air, not as much up there to suck in so quickly?
213 zeke : 335 kg Less air at altitude, less thrust can be generated.
214 757767lover : I am sorry if this as been said and answered before but what about atmospheric preasure on the "Black Box's " would that harm them. in my oppion it do
215 spacecadet : Still, as I said earlier, most searches will begin from the last known position and then radiate outward, obviously taking into account things like w
216 affirmative : Would you care to deliberate? I'm guessing when the root stalls there are not few signs but as the stall "travels" further out the wing would the sig
217 chuchoteur : Well, I guess the last known position was at 30.000 feet, so they probably assumed it had not plunged (or come back) to a point so close to that last
218 Aesma : Since we're talking about N1, oxygen at altitude, etc., I just thought about this : as a last resort, shouldn't fuel flow or another absolute thrust i
219 TSS : I'll try to remain as non-graphic as possible, but I'll probably still be labeled a "ghoul" in your book. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps the
220 airtechy : My understanding of the reason aircraft wings stall starting first at the wing root is so you still have roll control because the ailerons will stall
221 comorin : Thank you.
222 bikerthai : From the same Frontline show there was a visual cue for the Airbus pilot to indicate that the thrust level has changed. They speculate that during st
223 canoecarrier : I take no credit for doing this calculation. I found this interesting quote over at another site. "Assuming ~350ft/s descent rate in deep stall/flat
224 francoflier : The captain was in his bunk, hence he did not see the storm on the radar screen... Storms only appear on the weather radar about 15-20 minutes at mos
225 Pihero : There is a *wash out* on the wing profile : the wing tip is at a lower incidence than the wing root. Why ? So that the inner wing will stall first .
226 rfields5421 : One possibility -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
227 Pihero : For the flight attendants.
228 adam42185 : I was under the same impression as airtechy -- how does the wing stalling at the root cause a nose down movement? I thought that the nose down moveme
229 francoflier : Because of the wing sweep. The tips are aft of the overall center of lift whereas the root is forward of it. If only the tips produce lift, then they
230 Post contains links canoecarrier : I went back and looked at the presentation given yesterday. One of the pages has the sonar display of the debris field. It is really in a compact area
231 kiwiandrew : The -200 is approx 58 metres long ( according to wikipedia ) .
232 tdscanuck : What does it to? If you're holding full aft stick (in direct mode, obviously), what happens when the stall breaks? The attitude information will abso
233 zeke : Dont forget that wonderful knee jeck idea the FAA came up with, locked cockpit doors. They are causing more problems than they are worth when signifi
234 CALTECH : Thanks to Mandala499, Pihero, Zeke and the others for their analysis, experience and insight of Airbus systems and piloting along with their links and
235 zeke : It doesn't really have a G break when clean, just a very noticeable buffet, similar to their other FBW including the A380. When not clean, it does ha
236 Stitch : Did the ICAO adopt this rule after the FAA did so in 1964 after the loss of PC 773? Or did the French and/or Brazilian authorities decide to mandate
237 AirlineCritic : Maybe that is what happened. Radar altimeter finally indicated that something was wrong, they decide to pull up... but a few seconds too late.
238 osteogenesis : This is contrary to what my flight instructor told me last week. He told me that the lower angle of attack in gliders at the outer part of the wing w
239 flipdewaf : It does not say vertical descent, it says there was a significant vertical component. What significant may mean is anybody's guess right now but it c
240 Pihero : Sorry, I should type a bit more slowly. This is what I meant : If you looked at the cut-out of an airfoil with an aileron, you'd remember the basics
241 sebolino : True, but the vertical component was high enough to break the rudder at impact. Right, it's absolutely relevant with the numbers given by the BEA: Th
242 Pihero : Most of us are hooked on the period just preceding the impact. Most posters assume a totally uncontrolled (or uncontrollable) airliner, as all the th
243 flipdewaf : Was it specifically the vertical component that broke the rudder or a combination of lateral/axial accellerations as well? Fred
244 nordair737242c : Ah but garpd you do show your prejudice to Airbus in fact your first quote on this topic was "There are too many A330s plying our skies for this trag
245 tdscanuck : 4000 fpm isn't that aggressive a descent...in even light turbulence you might not notice it without looking at instruments. 12000 fpm is typically on
246 rfields5421 : It was also high enough of a vertical component to cause massive compression fractures and immediate death of most the passengers and crew recovered
247 Post contains links CALTECH : Well, the aircraft was not climbing. The report says it was a significant vertical component yes, the aircraft was descending to impact with the wate
248 casinterest : Well since they were in the storms, it may have been a microburst assisted component. Perhaps they were in the process of recovering the plane? Howev
249 comorin : From the underwater pictures, is it possible to tell if the landing gear was extended? Interesting to see the tread separation on the tire with the se
250 Kaiarahi : See post 179:
251 bikerthai : O.K. I think I know where I was confused. "the relief crew" infer to me that there was a pilot and co-pilot in the seats. But neither were considered
252 zeke : I do not know AF, however in most (and I must stress not all), only one captain is assigned per flight, even if more than one crew member that is pai
253 Post contains links LipeGIG : Considering this become too long, and there's still a lot to happen, we are opening the Part II for further discussions. Please see the link below AF4
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