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HSR Or 2nd Airport For Sydney?  
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ofarrell-c...sydney-airport-20110405-1d2zj.html

The new Premier of NSW has called for high speed rail to go to Melbourne and other locations, instead of a second Sydney airport.


O'Farrell's idea of HSR is also interesting - especially since the idea has been proposed so often and never went anywhere further than glossy brochures (including one I have here showing a CG image of a TGV Duplex at a Sydney railway station).

I think the second airport has less chance of happening than HSR - due to the airport noise factors and that nobody wants an airport anywhere near their homes (unless you are a planespotter).

It's interesting how this second Sydney airport idea has come around so quickly - do you think this will actually result in a second airport?

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5069 times:

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
It's interesting how this second Sydney airport idea has come around so quickly - do you think this will actually result in a second airport?

NO!

Neither the second airport nor the HSR will happen. The road transport lobby is far too entrenched, not to mentioned future vision impaired pollys.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

No to HSR, No to listening to MAp about not needing another airport, No to 2nd Airport...

A properly planned single airport for Sydney could be built on the site of the military reserve behind Minto, sell the Mascot site for development and it could even end up being self funded.

Yes, its full of valleys and kinda close to Lucas heights and a drinking water reservoir but these are not insurmountable difficulties

[Edited 2011-04-05 19:09:23]


BV
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

The cost of a HSR between MEL-CBR-SYD would be huge. Add to that, BNE will likely cry out for a train too if it happened, which would make it even more expensive. The distances involved seem to be very long to consider such a proposal viable.

Would airports gain any compensation for loss of trade?


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
The cost of a HSR between MEL-CBR-SYD would be huge.

Probably not a lot more than a greenfield major airport. Certainly within our GDP limits.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
The distances involved seem to be very long to consider such a proposal viable.

No they are not! The French/German expriance shows that up to about 900km (3 to 4 hours) is reasonable. SYD-MEL would serve about as many people as any European line except LON-PAR-BER.

There is no technical or economic reason a HSR ADL-MEL-SYD-BNE would not work, just the political will is missing.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4914 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
The cost of a HSR between MEL-CBR-SYD would be huge. Add to that, BNE will likely cry out for a train too if it happened, which would make it even more expensive. The distances involved seem to be very long to consider such a proposal viable.

Whenever a NSW govenment talks about building a rail line the correct response should be laughter, never going to happen, never.



BV
User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
Whenever a NSW govenment talks about building a rail line the correct response should be laughter, never going to happen, never.

There has been just a change of government in NSW so there might be a chance to actually construct things rather than construct hot air.

From my understanding, HSR should be feasible and the distances are not different to HSR in Europe where they are more common than air travel. From a home/office to destination should be about the same on HSR given the time it takes to get through airports.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
Whenever a NSW govenment talks about building a rail line the correct response should be laughter, never going to happen, never.

But, it's a different government - and apparently they have 100 days to deliver - 50 days even, if you take notice of the ultimatum issued by "The Daily Telegraph". And if they don't, apparently all hell will happen.   (I don't know how gave them such sweeping administrative powers).  
Quoting gemuser (Reply 4):
just the political will is missing.

That's always been the problem. It's too easy for the other side to take the easy option and hose it down as "waste". If there is a bi-partisan agreement, the opposition gets no credit, while the government becomes the grand-visionary who made it all possible. That's how petty and partisan politics has become.

I dream of either a second airport or HSR happening - because I'm a silly, optimistic dreamer.  


User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4868 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 6):
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
Whenever a NSW govenment talks about building a rail line the correct response should be laughter, never going to happen, never.

There has been just a change of government in NSW so there might be a chance to actually construct things rather than construct hot air.

Change of government will mean nothing, the easiest job in the world is an opposition leader in politics. This new government will have to perform now with actions, they said all the right things the last few years with a self destructing government, but now with the reality of actually having to govern, we will see just how much political will there is in Barry's large belly.

To be honest I can't see either happening either, a HSR link will cost as much as a new airport, will it provide as much economic benefit to the country as a new airport would ?, it will disrupt just as many people in the construction phase, it will also have a noise lobby against it.

The easiest solution is to lift the movement cap and redesign, rebuild the terminals at SYD, the runways can accomodate it, it is the terminals which generally struggle as well as the ground transport links.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 6):
From my understanding, HSR should be feasible and the distances are not different to HSR in Europe where they are more common than air travel. From a home/office to destination should be about the same on HSR given the time it takes to get through airports.

True that we are now under Barry but the basic political facts remain, lots of money required, long term project, 4 year term. State governments do not have the attention span for large infrastructure projects. Added to which no HSR is economically viable without subsidies unlike air travel which is a tax cash cow, so we the taxpayer would end up subsidising the profits of private companies.... again. HSR is not good deal for NSW tax payers.

I currently live between the flight paths of Sydneys main runways (I know lucky me) there are good safety and security reasons not to fly over large parts of suburban Sydney so build 3 or 4 runways somewhere else and have a first class facility that can serve Sydney into the future; as I say selling of a huge site at the fringe of metro sydney with a sea view would raise billions as well as increasing the quality of life for 1/2 million Sydneysiders.



BV
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4853 times:

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 8):
it will also have a noise lobby against it.

In city areas, it'd be no noisier than a standard rail-line, probably only speeding up when outside of the suburban areas. Being electric, it'd surely be quieter than those roaring diesel engines thundering along.

It's got to be quieter than having B737s flying overhead at all times of the day - plus it can take freight if needed. 320km/h freight has got to be worthwhile. But it might take trucks off the road - which is a big problem (road-transport lobby groups will protest).

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 9):
as well as increasing the quality of life for 1/2 million Sydneysiders.

the airport has been there long before many of them were - I don't see that it is acceptable to move an airport for that reason.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4692 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4846 times:

No tax payer wants to pay more tax to fund a NEW SYD airport or Express line linking the cities... We have to deal with a new flood levy and now fighting to scrap the carbon tax which my opinion is a joke considering the cost of living is a struggle for many Australian families and no other country has even considered participating so what difference is one country going to make???  

Before I get off the original topic, the 80 movements an hour cap needs to be lifted... SYD is capable of handling the demand, airport has the facilities to handle the traffic, we just need the cap lifted and definitely help meet the demand from carriers wishing to serve Australia's no.1 gateway and most importantly delays...

  

EK413   



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 4):
here is no technical or economic reason a HSR ADL-MEL-SYD-BNE would not work, just the political will is missing.

I would disagree that economic reasoning actually supports such a proposal. If it was that simple, it would have people lining up to build it. With finances stretched as it is, for both Federal and State governments, and Private financiers these days less willing to invest in projects like this, its not so easy to say its just the political will missing.

The idea sounds great, in some ways, but their are still other factors to consider here also, including the health of the aviation sector, and the job losses which would flow from moves like this.

[Edited 2011-04-05 20:39:39]

User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 11):
Before I get off the original topic, the 80 movements an hour cap needs to be lifted... SYD is capable of handling the demand, airport has the facilities to handle the traffic,

What movement rate are you proposing? Bearing in mind that LHR's movement rate is about 80 (2 parallel runways) LAX is about 160 (4 parallel runways). In fact if you look at all airports in the world the movement rate is approximately 40 per runway that can be used simultaneously. SYD does not even have 2 proper parallel runways, it has a runway and a runt.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4797 times:

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 8):
The easiest solution is to lift the movement cap and redesign, rebuild the terminals at SYD, the runways can accomodate it, it is the terminals which generally struggle as well as the ground transport links.

Politcal suicide, the Libs actually won some seats under the flight path this time   besides the intersecting runways are always going to cause issues with increased flight movements.

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
the airport has been there long before many of them were - I don't see that it is acceptable to move an airport for that reason.

I can see that but if we can solve more that one problem at a time, why not? Also there is a structure directly under the flight path of one of the runways that would gives me chills from a security prospective.

If we were starting from scratch today we wouldn't build inner city airports, we would use the land for other purposes, I truly believe that moving and expanding to a different site is the most cost effective option apart from anything else.



BV
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):
I would disagree that economic reasoning actually supports such a proposal. If it was that simple, it would have people lining up to build it.

They would be if we did not have grossly over subsidised roads. Every other mode of transport has to pay its way, roads do not. Set up a level playing field and the market will sort out the most economic answer.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):

The idea sounds great, in some ways, but their are still other factors to consider here also, including the health of the aviation sector, and the job losses which would flow from moves like this.

Why should they be special? Yes it is a legitimate government function to protect the powerless, but there's not many in aviation who qualify.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4679 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 15):
Why should they be special? Yes it is a legitimate government function to protect the powerless, but there's not many in aviation who qualify.

If such an action led to many thousands of job losses, Im not so sure people would feel so happy about it.

Things are not as simple as one might think.


User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 898 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4612 times:

I have some Q re above posts:

Q1. Has the land at MINTO been used as a live firing range at some time?

Q2. Who owns the land that is currently SYD airport?

Q3. How much use is made of Richmond these days by the RAAF?

Q4. What are the "downsides" of using Richmond as the 2nd airport? (geographically, logistically,transport etc). I have not been up around the Windsor/Richmond area for some 25 years hence the questions.

Q5. Is not the Golden Triangle (MEL-SYD-BNE) the bread and butter for QF and DJ? If so, and the Federal Govt decided that HSR is the future(???) how would you feel about QF/DJ do a "branson" (al la Virgin Rail) and own the HSR to insulate any downturn on the triangle, or part thereof?



remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6672 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4611 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
320km/h freight has got to be worthwhile.

Does anyone anywhere move freight at 320kp/h, I mean real freight not post like the French do.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 16):
If such an action led to many thousands of job losses, Im not so sure people would feel so happy about it.

People don't care! How much do you hear about the tens of thousands of job losses in other sectors such as manufacturing, telecommunications and other service industries? A HSR may lead to job losses in aviation, although I doubt it or it will only be short term as the industry adjusts. It will lead to increased economic activity so net job losses are unlikely.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q1. Has the land at MINTO been used as a live firing range at some time?

If you mean Holsworthy the answer is Yes (I believe still currently used- If you read the previous proposal for an airport at Holsworthy the ammunitation was the least of the problems.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):

Q2. Who owns the land that is currently SYD airport?

The Commonwealth.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q3. How much use is made of Richmond these days by the RAAF?

Not much, but could be a joint user facility like Darwin.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q4. What are the "downsides" of using Richmond as the 2nd airport? (geographically, logistically,transport etc). I have not been up around the Windsor/Richmond area for some 25 years hence the questions.

Long way from Sydney. Fog. Terrain.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q5. Is not the Golden Triangle (MEL-SYD-BNE) the bread and butter for QF and DJ? If so, and the Federal Govt decided that HSR is the future(???) how would you feel about QF/DJ do a "branson" (al la Virgin Rail) and own the HSR to insulate any downturn on the triangle, or part thereof?

IIRC Qantas was interested in being a partner in one of the previous attempts for get HSR on the rails.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q2. Who owns the land that is currently SYD airport?

Technically the Federal Govt, but its leased, I think on a 99 year basis, to MAp.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q3. How much use is made of Richmond these days by the RAAF?

Its mainly a logistics base, with the C130s and the new C-17 fleet based there.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q4. What are the "downsides" of using Richmond as the 2nd airport? (geographically, logistically,transport etc). I have not been up around the Windsor/Richmond area for some 25 years hence the questions.

Its lack of decent transport options would be brought up as a reason, but overall, given that a railway line is right near it, and much of Western Sydney would be its immediate catchment area, it could be a lower cost option than some that are being suggested.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 17):
Q5. Is not the Golden Triangle (MEL-SYD-BNE) the bread and butter for QF and DJ? If so, and the Federal Govt decided that HSR is the future(???) how would you feel about QF/DJ do a "branson" (al la Virgin Rail) and own the HSR to insulate any downturn on the triangle, or part thereof?

Yes, the Golden Triangle routes are definately their bread and butter. Without them, things might get very messy, and have negative flow on effects for the whole industry. Taking on a role as a rail operator would be interesting to see for QF and/or DJ though.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 19):
People don't care! How much do you hear about the tens of thousands of job losses in other sectors such as manufacturing, telecommunications and other service industries? A HSR may lead to job losses in aviation, although I doubt it or it will only be short term as the industry adjusts. It will lead to increased economic activity so net job losses are unlikely.

Who knows what the effects will be. Its all just an assumption at this stage, whichever angle you take on it. It may have good or bad effects on the economy as a whole, depending on the success of such a scheme. The outlay would be huge for whoever takes it on though, so it would not be an easy task for a govt to sell the idea, especially if big investment is needed from taxpayer funds.


User currently offlineSolent From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4544 times:

Sydney has a second airport that is capable of taking most aircraft and has a railway line running past it. As TN486 asks how busy is Richmond. I believe modern jets are much quiter than the RAAF aircraft especially the 707's that were based there. I went to Randwick boys high and that was noisy in the old days.

Why does no one develop that Richmond base into the second airport that Sydney needs, especially as it would be easier for a lot of people to fly domestically from there. Avalon and Coolangatta have a purpose and are near MEL and BNE, and unlike the former Richmond has an active rail line (my son drives trains past it often). When I went to the BiCentennial airshow the rail catered for a large crowd.

I believe SYD is Commonwealth land as are most airports. Made it much easier to do the 3rd runway EIS and implementation. The Federal government wanted a 3rd runway and ensured that it got made.

Why can none in Government see Richmond.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4692 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 13):

I think you might of just hit the nail in the head... Sydney Airport has 3 runways with 2 being parallel runways... The original plans for 16L / 34R was to ease and eventually close runway 07 / 25...
The runway was to operate simultaneously as LHR and LAX, however due to the 'no noise' party the plans had to be scrapedand 07 / 25 reinstated...
As for the cap it certainly appears to be effecting the operations of the airport and what cap should be applied is debatable... I just feel the airport isn't operating to its full potential and never will with restrictions...

BTW I live directly across from SYD so no complaints on movement from me!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 13):
SYD does not even have 2 proper parallel runways, it has a runway and a runt.

You do realise that the runt of a runway is actually long compared to a lot of European and American airports. It is quite capable of handling just about every movement at SYD is except the 380's and the long range flights. In fact the runway is in fact longer than what there is at Richmond and people keep mentioning it as an alternative.

If Richmond was even considered it would only ever be as a domestic airport, it is far to constrained to be used as anything else.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
Its mainly a logistics base, with the C130s and the new C-17 fleet based there.

The C17's are actually based at Amberley, but do visit Richmond on a regular basis, as do USAF C17's.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
Its lack of decent transport options would be brought up as a reason, but overall, given that a railway line is right near it, and much of Western Sydney would be its immediate catchment area, it could be a lower cost option than some that are being suggested.

Present road links are terrible and would have to be greatly improved. The rail line is also only single track for much of it's operation and takes approx 90 mins to the city, though not sure if this is part of Barry's grand plan for the northwest rail link, another $2 billion project that is suppose to start before the end of this year.

RL


25 IndianicWorld : Mainly because the Defense Department haven't worked out their plans for the site yet. Until they move out, I do not see it being an option on the ta
26 Airvan00 : Yes, I do realise. I spend about 2 years writing the procedures for the airspace. I don't believe any 747's have used 16L/34R. Also international ope
27 Post contains links tayser : Airlines are in the business of moving people and freight - there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that an airline can't run a train operation (Dick
28 Post contains links and images tayser : I asked this on Ozscrapers, but this probably the better audience can someone correct me if I'm wrong: Am I correct (roughly speaking)? Because this i
29 stealthz : Certainly have and there is documentary evidence in the DB to confirm it. Granted not often and only in special circumstances. At only 92mtrs shorter
30 EK413 : B747s have utilized 16L/34R during the quiet periods and when the unexpected happens and an alternative runway is required besides 07/25... Last time
31 jupiter2 : As others above stated it does get used by large jets and more often than what would be realised, especially popular during SODOPS, but anyway. As fo
32 Post contains images EK413 : I like the 07 arrivals too... and departures... The windows in my room shake Obvious I don't hate aircraft noise! EK413
33 jupiter2 : About the time you were at Randwick, I was at Maroubra Junction primary, used to love the Alitalia DC8's going to MEL flying over on the walk to scho
34 EK413 : Times have certainly changed... I witnessed HA utilize 16L/34R.:. Stamford Hotel is an obstruction on the approach to 16L... EK413
35 asianaA350 : Personally, I think a second airport needs to be considered. It is inevitable that SYD will be pushed to the limits at some stage. HSR is a good idea,
36 BoeingVista : 30 years isn't a long time, its 28 years since Badgerys Creek was selected as the second airport site but we still haven't decided to rule it in or o
37 EK413 : 2nd airport for SYD will not happen in my lifetime and even if it does hopefully I'm not living in Australia! This has been discussed one too many ti
38 Post contains images OzGlobal : Even though I'm exhausted from this pitiful debate in Australia, here goes another shot: 1. "Oh, but we haven't got the POPULATION!" SYD-MEL is in th
39 IndianicWorld : What works in Europe doesn't always translate to a successful model here.I would love to see it happen, but frankly it will not even be considered fo
40 Kent350787 : And specifically approved by the local council to be so......
41 Airvan00 : Was it a departure from 34R ?
42 BoeingVista : Even in Europe rail requires subsidies so its expensive to build and its an on going cost unlike an Airport which pays for itself and generates profi
43 gemuser : Go and do your home work again! Do it properly, this time. Ask your self who is the major competitor to both air and rail and follow thru the consequ
44 BoeingVista : Er no. My homework is fine thanks but if you have a point feel free to make it...
45 melpax : What about an expansion of Newcastle, or would that be considered too far from Sydney?
46 tayser : I dunno which state you're from, but you can bet your bottom dollar any HSR solution would not be entirely government owned and operated. Government
47 Post contains images aerorobnz : Factor in the clout of the (Faux) Green movement these days... They love to hate aviation because of it's (minimal) emissions but "public transport"
48 tayser : It only needs to be staged - Melbourne-Canberra-Sydney first, then Sydney-Newcastle-Gold Coast-Brisbane 2nd, then Melbourne-Adelaide over a 20-30 year
49 EK413 : Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out... Politics suck! On both occasions I witness an arrival on 16L and a departure on 16L... But the depa
50 Airvan00 : Has anyone seen a 747 depart 34R?? I suspect the answer in no. There may be a few occasions that it has happened when 16R/34L is closed due to a disa
51 mogandoCI : MEL-SYD-BNE are way too far from each other to make HSR profitable (even after you factor in Canberra in between). MEL-SYD and SYD-BNE just about viol
52 OzGlobal : Rubbish! A current generation HSR would cruise at 350 km/h++, This makes SYD-MEL around 2,5 hrs, city centre to city centre! Good luck doing that by
53 cpd : Yes. BA 747-436. Also noticed A340-642 of Thai airways land on 34R. Also seen A340-343 takeoff on 34L.
54 PPVRA : Entirely possible by air IF, 1. Airport pricing regulations are abolished, which will make money. 2. Efficient security, which will cost far less tha
55 Airvan00 : Not sure about that. Takes about 1/2 hr from the city to the airport at Sydney by taxi and if you could arrive 30 min prior to pushback you would sti
56 Post contains images cpd : And if you get stuck in a traffic jam, it's even worse - because part of it is in a tunnel, and once you are in that tunnel, you are stuck! Been ther
57 PPVRA : I haven't been to Sydney, but if we assume I needed to get to the Amtrak station here in Atlanta, it would take me about as long as getting to the ai
58 Post contains images cpd : Generally from suburban locations, if we assume that the train was departing from what we call Sydney Terminal (the intercity part of Central station
59 tayser : From a Melbourne perspective, the majority of Melburnians have a similar journey from where the live (South, South east or East of the CBD) to the air
60 Post contains images Markam : I will not enter the debate per se, because I am totally foreign to Australian matters (literally), but that particular statement is incorrect, as hi
61 tayser : on the environmental part the catch for HSR is that a dedicated power plant would need to be built and (in the current context) that would invariably
62 Decromin : That's true, but one benefit of the areas along that route is the possibilities of alternate power stations (eg: Solar towers, solar chimneys, wind f
63 IndianicWorld : Not really sure my statement was incorrect, its just a matter of interpretation of the situation at hand. Distances involved will be around 900kms ME
64 tayser : even though I posted it above, I'll rephrase. NO HSR system, I repeat, NO.... HSR system has high speed lines inside large urgan areas. ALL HSR train
65 Post contains images EK413 : Sorry I missed your original question... Yes, a QF B744 departed from 34R with weight restrictions of course. The aircraft was re-routed via MEL to r
66 mogandoCI : You're assuming HSR survives on pure point-to-point without any stops along the way. 350kmph is the theoretical max assuming absolutely straight line
67 2travel2know2 : If a H.S.R. is ever built between Sydney and Melbourne, CBR (provided it has its own stop) could be Sydney's 2nd airport.
68 AirNZ : Why would any airport get compensation for 'loss of trade'? Do businesses get it when a competitor builds another store/factory etc???? Out of curios
69 nycdave : And that is one big advantage they have there -- acquiring right-of-way is often the most expensive part of building a rail line (or airport, for tha
70 gemuser : There capital & maintenance costs are paid for out of general tax revenue, there are no usage based costs to users (excepting a few urban toll ro
71 PPVRA : On the other hand, the two countries with the most enviable HSR networks, France and Japan, make a substantial amount of their power from nuclear sou
72 BoeingVista : Thats your point, seriously? I think you need to go back to school. About 1/4 of the price you pay for fuel is tax, this is a usage based cost to roa
73 sparklehorse12 : In typical political style, of course a new government is going oppose anything "progressive" that a federal government is proposing if they are from
74 Post contains links tayser : You're so horribly wrong it's not funny. The expense in building these types of Rail systems is the land aquisition so as to allow for the large curv
75 Solent : Make the runt longer at SYD into a proper runway so can be used by a fully loaded jumbo and clear the Stamford, shake rattle and roll, the hotel shoul
76 Post contains images Airvan00 : Having recently travelled in an ICE3 (at 320Kph) I can assure you that it doesn't slowdown for the curves, or on gradients. It has so much momentum i
77 EK413 : As previously mentioned and (I agree with you 100%) none of the above will happen... New government's will always come out with a NEW promise, build
78 gemuser : Wrong! There is NO TAX (GST excluded) on fuel. There is an exercise on fuel and the difference is important, it is a general exercise and is NOT levi
79 IndianicWorld : The airport operators all signed long leases with the Federal govt, who still effectively own the land. In that case, there may be some kind of compe
80 tayser : Yes, let's ditch the best located airport in the country - lunacy. If you take 40% of Sydney's current traffic away from it (MEL, BNE, CBR and OOL) a
81 IndianicWorld : True. Would still be a very big revenue gap to try and close though. Would be very interesting negotiations, which may end up getting messy if things
82 EK413 : I never stated I agree with the idea of ditching the best located airport in the country... The government won't lift the curfew to start off, the ca
83 Post contains images OzGlobal : Ooops! I must be smoking some pipe when I cruise at 300-320kmh every time I travel the 750 or more km from Paris to Marsailles these past ten years!
84 nycdave : There's got to be SOME way to re-arrange the layout of SYD to improve capacity without significant new land acquisition or new runways (though possibl
85 bill142 : HSR and 2nd Sydney airport are two things governments will continually spend money on conducting studies into (there's yet another study on HSR being
86 Post contains links and images tayser : ^ nycdave: from SYD's master plan 2029 (click for larger pic): [Edited 2011-04-09 15:33:34]
87 EK413 : Interesting layout but that certainly shows the airport will be stretched to its limits by 2030... What then...? EK413
88 nycdave : WOW. Don't even know where to start with such incredibly, factually wrong statements. You can look at Amtrak's own data -- most Acela Express passeng
89 Markam : Sure thing, but you mentioned that the distances involved seem to be very long to consider such a proposal viable, and that's what I pointed out as i
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