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DOT Plans Brazil Frequency Allocation Proceeding  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24887 posts, RR: 46
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14891 times:

The DOT today invited airlines to apply for upcoming passenger and cargo frequencies that become available as part of the last years Open Skies agreement between the United States and Brazil.

Under the terms of the agreement, 14-additional passenger frequencies become available to US airlines both in October 2011 and 2012 to any point in Brazil except Sao Paulo, plus 14 frequencies to any point in Brazil except Sao Paulo and Rio. (so in total 28-weekly frequencies each year).

Additionally 14-frequencies become available for all cargo operators on October 1st both in 2011 and 2012.

Airlines are invited to submit their applications for both years awards to the DOT.


So any guesses on who will apply for what??


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
178 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14931 times:

My guess is from US to either:

Brasilia
Recife
Salvador
Oro Preto
Porto Alegre
Belo Horizonte

Will they be allowed to stop in GRU? GIG?


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14887 times:

I think AA fill will apply for Fortalezela, Belem, and Manaus

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5456 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14819 times:

Spirit out of Ft Lauderdale? Could they reach one of the more northern cities?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14755 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 1):
Oro Preto

Sorry to inform you, but Ouro Preto has no airport and, if anything, is served by CNF, about 100mi away.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14699 times:

Continental is about to complete 2 years flying IAH-GIG. It's about time they resume EWR-GIG.

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14651 times:
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Doesn't DL have some unrestricted frequencies to Brazil? If they do i can see them asking for ATL - GIG to free up the unrestricted frequencies so they can go daily DTW - GRU.

User currently offlineCNForever From Brazil, joined Apr 2011, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14619 times:

My first post here !!


I decide to join the airliners, following the suggestion from LipeGIG.
Thanks Lipe!


I'll start showing why CNF should be awarded with some new flights.

CNF is the third biggest market to US in Brazil. Just behind GRU e GIG. We have good business, good cargo, big VFR and generates a large number of tourists to US.
Minas Gerais state is the third most rich and important in Brazil. Our GDP is bigger then Chile ones.
Our GDP in the last year grew 10,9%. It is more than the Brazilian e China's one.
Belo Horizonte is becoming one of the most important cities of the WC2014
Many new hotels are being built in town, like Hyatt, Ramada, Caesar Park, Accor Hotels and the new luxury chain in Brazil, Fasano. A new convention center is being projected.
In CNF, we are reforming T1 and starting the project for T2 that may be ready by half in 2014. Last year passes by the airport 7.2 million pax. In 2014 we may see at least 10 million.
It is a good time to get a slot and a place to park the plane before all these thing happen.
20 million people lives here and all we got is a daily flight to MIA. 4 times weekly with SA)">AA and 3 times weekly with JJ.

I would like to suggest two routes.

EWR-CNF with SA)">CO.

There is a big community of Mineiros (people from SA)">MG) living in New York, New Jersey, Boston etc.
SA)">CO is part of SA just like TAM. TAM is buying TRIP ( regional carrier ) that have there main hubs in CNF and PLU.
It would provide good connections thru CNF. They codeshare TAM in GIG and GRU and TAM could codeshare them in CNF.

ATL-CNF with DL.

CNF is only linked nowadays with MIA, LIS, PTY and MVD. We need a link with a big hub that can connect us to all continents like Asia. ATL fits very well. DL applied for ATL-CNF in 2008 but in a deal agreement with SA)">AA they "gave" CNF to SA)">AA and SA)">AA left them FOR.
SA)">AA and JJ load factor from CNF is around 90%. So we have space for another carrier.

What do you think about it.

I'll be waiting for comments.


Regards


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14545 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 6):
Doesn't DL have some unrestricted frequencies to Brazil? If they do i can see them asking for ATL - GIG to free up the unrestricted frequencies so they can go daily DTW - GRU.

Yes, if they feel that DTW-GRU is ready to go daily, they will most certainly do that.


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14451 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):

By any chance do you know how many unrestricted frequencies do they hold and how many frequencies if any do AA, CO, US, and UA have. Thank u in advance.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14412 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 9):
By any chance do you know how many unrestricted frequencies do they hold and how many frequencies if any do AA, CO, US, and UA have. Thank u in advance.

Unrestricted frequencies:

AA - 47 (21 MIA-GRU, 12 DFW-GRU, 7 JFK-GRU, 7 MIA-GIG)
DL - 23 (7 ATL-GRU, 7 JFK-GRU, 5 DTW-GRU, 4 ATL-GIG)
UA - 14 (7 ORD-GRU, 7 IAD-GRU-GIG)
CO - 14 (7 EWR-GRU, 7 IAH-GRU)
US - 7 (meant for CLT-GRU, leased from UA)

[Edited 2011-04-06 20:17:24]

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14354 times:
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Oh wow i did not know that DTW - GRU was 5x weekly. For some reason i was thinking it was only 3 weekly frequencies that they transfered from their LAX - GRU route. Where did the other 2 days come from?

User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14352 times:

Here is my little contribution to the topic:

AA
Could apply for:
-3 frequencies and make BSB daily. The same goes for CNF. Total of 6 frequencies.
-4 frequencies for new service to FOR or MAO.
-4 frequencies to make DFW-GIG daily.
-4 frequencies for MIA-VCP flight.

DL
Could apply for:
-7 frequencies to make ATL-GIG double daily.
-4 frequencies to start new service to CNF
-4 frequencies to make both ATL-BSB & DTW-GRU daily.

CO:

-7 frequencies for new daily EWR-GIG flight.
-4 frequencies for new IAH-CNF.
-3 frequencies for new IAH-MAO service.

US:

Not going to apply.

UA:

Not going to apply.

Jetbue:

-7 frequencies for MCO-MAO

Spirit:

-7 frequencies for FLL-MAO


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14304 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 12):
-4 frequencies to make both ATL-BSB & DTW-GRU daily.

DL already holds enough frequencies to make ATL-BSB daily.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
Oh wow i did not know that DTW - GRU was 5x weekly. For some reason i was thinking it was only 3 weekly frequencies that they transfered from their LAX - GRU route. Where did the other 2 days come from?

Well, LAX-GRU was only 3x weekly, because it borrowed a frequency from JFK, that was reduced during that time. DL was allocated 3 additional ATL-GIG frequencies, so that 3 unrestricted frequencies that were being used at GIG could be shifted to GRU.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14299 times:

My bet:

AA:

3x MIA-BSB
3x MIA-CNF
3x MIA-REC so they can split their MIA-SSA-REC circular route into 3x MIA-REC and 4x MIA-SSA
4x DFW-GIG

DL:

4x JFK-GIG
2x ATL-GIG (so they can use 2 of the unrestricted frequencies alocated at GIG to boost DTW-GRU to daily)
3x ATL-CNF

CO/UA:

7x EWR-GIG
7x IAD-GIG (UA "loaned" 7 frequencies to US which remain unused)

US:

Nil

Spirit:

4x FLL-MAO



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 14236 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The DOT today invited airlines to apply for upcoming passenger and cargo frequencies that become available as part of the last years Open Skies agreement between the United States and Brazil.

Thanks for sharing. Any deadline given ?

Quoting CNForever (Reply 7):
I decide to join the airliners, following the suggestion from LipeGIG.
Thanks Lipe!

Welcome to A.net !!!!!

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):
Yes, if they feel that DTW-GRU is ready to go daily, they will most certainly do that.

So far that's my only expectation, together, may be, with more:
- ATL-BSB (1)
- DFW-GIG (2)
- MIA-BSB (3)
- MIA-CNF (3)
I don't see UA looking for more, and the only potential new market could be MIA-FOR.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
Oh wow i did not know that DTW - GRU was 5x weekly. For some reason i was thinking it was only 3 weekly frequencies that they transfered from their LAX - GRU route. Where did the other 2 days come from?

They applied for 2 ATL-GIG new frequencies, restricted, and used the unrestricted one to increase DTW-GRU service.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13980 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 1):
Porto Alegre

POA needs a runway extension and while I thought it would be done by mid 2012, a quick check on Infraero's website says 2013.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24887 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13927 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Thanks for sharing. Any deadline given ?

No, they have not yet set a formal timeline.

Seems the DOT is simply trying to gauge air carrier interest at this time and invites the applications. In case demand exceeds available slots then a formal competition would be launched it seems.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13880 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Thanks for sharing. Any deadline given ?

Yes, airlines have 15 days to apply.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13845 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
No, they have not yet set a formal timeline.

Seems the DOT is simply trying to gauge air carrier interest at this time and invites the applications. In case demand exceeds available slots then a formal competition would be launched it seems.

Thanks for the reply.
I think that no all of the frequencies will be claimed at this time. I can see AA adding from 6 up to 14, DL asking for 2 (for sure) up to 9, and that's all. I do not expect US or UA to ask for frequencies, and i do not expect new players.

With BRL rate now below 1.60, the Brazil-US side become stronger than US-Brazil and for any new route, it would need a strong local market.

=================================================================
Airline:

DL

ATL-GIG - 2 frequencies to increase DTW-GRU (Very likely)
JFK-GIG - unexpected
ATL-VCP - somewhat likely

AA

MIA-BSB - To make it daily - very likely
MIA-CNF - To make it daily - somewhat likely
DFW-GIG - To increase to 5x weekly - could be
MIA-FOR - I do not expect that before they try to give independence to REC or SSA (and it might be... MIA-SSA or MIA-REC and a new MIA-FOR-REC or MIA-FOR-SSA, as this would help offset the distance for a 752)
MIA-POA - would be a nice surprise (TP will run A332 to LIS, B763 is probably possible)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17365 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13831 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
ATL-VCP - somewhat likely

Sao Paulo is excluded, and I believe that excludes VCP as well.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13774 times:

It may be 2-3 years too soon but maybe DL could add a MIA-Brazil frequency?


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11461 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13746 times:

I could perhaps see AA going for 3x weekly for MIA-CNF (with a 763, going to daily) and/or 3x weekly for MIA-FOR (with a 757).

Quoting peanuts (Reply 21):
It may be 2-3 years too soon but maybe DL could add a MIA-Brazil frequency?

Maybe, but have fun with that up against AA.

Plus, I don't really see why Delta would even bother with Miami-Brazil (or Miami-South America in general, for that matter) if they couldn't fly to Sao Paulo, which is the largest and most important market in that region.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13674 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Sao Paulo is excluded, and I believe that excludes VCP as well.

Just GRU is excluded.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 21):
It may be 2-3 years too soon but maybe DL could add a MIA-Brazil frequency?

Considering their focus in Sao Paulo, they will have to wait for Sao Paulo based frequencies to become available.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13320 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Considering their focus in Sao Paulo, they will have to wait for Sao Paulo based frequencies to become available.

I think that's right. While DL is already in Brasil from ATL and it's not an apples to apples comparison by any means, I liken it to what happened with US - they took CLT-GIG because that was what they could get, but it was a clear less-than-ideal choice, and they quickly moved to GRU as soon as they had the chance. If DL is going to do MIA-Brasil (and IMO it's more than 3 years away - EZE would be a better first South America route to try between the AR partnership and the lack of frequency issues), it needs to be GRU.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 incitatus : Some of the routes listed in this thread make for an entertaining read! Brazil is doing well but the airlines in the US are concerned about fuel price
26 C010T3 : VCP is excluded as well this time around. Back in 2008, there was no reason to exclude VCP, but since AD filled the airport to congestion, that's no l
27 mcdu : I wonder how many of the slots that DL might be awarded will they not operate. They were big talkers on LAX-GRU and the whole HND slot issue may also
28 Cubsrule : But with respect to HND, they can't very well give the slots to AA instead of DL.
29 AF086 : US moved to GRU? Their operations at GIG are going strong even after some doomsday prophets bet the route was going to be short lived. US got GRU slo
30 LipeGIG : For your info, US already have the chance not to move the frequencies but to open a second route. So far the schedule isn't great, and the parking du
31 MaverickM11 : That's what I thought, which is odd considering it'd be in Brazil's interest to drum up interest in VCP.
32 CNForever : The best way to get extra capacity in GRU, is open new direct flights from airports like CNF BSB SSA POA Nowadays these are the main feeders of GRU fl
33 YYZAMS : I know GRU is excluded but what about CGH? Is it able to handle flights from NA and afar?
34 PPVRA : CGH does not handle any international flights anymore. Domestic only.
35 incitatus : I wonder if you have been there. The "terminal" looks like a warehouse. TP has been complaining that the lack of Duty Free is keeping some of their p
36 Cubsrule : Yeah, but I don't see 2 routes lasting long term. That's a lot of Brasil service for a zero O&D market like CLT. But DL isn't that much larger a
37 mah4546 : Nothing strong about it. The fares they charge are insanely low. No way it's making a dime on a high-CASM 762. If US had access to GRU, I stand firm
38 LipeGIG : It is a bigger origin market, and a good destination market. I believe there's room for both with the current market conditions. Cheap fares US-Brazi
39 AF086 : Of course they have access but the slots available aren't good for them, that's another problem. If GRU were that good for them they would request a
40 incitatus : Welcome to a.net! The airlines from the US can add extra-bilateral frequencies over peak season - that is - they can go beyond what they are allowed.
41 CNForever : Thank you! OK But the markets still growing fast. At least for the next 36 months we should see a good demand for BR-US flights. As you may now, the
42 A388 : I'm not sure I'm following this, can you further explain what is meant here? There will be 14 additional frequencies for any point in Brazil except f
43 LAXintl : There are 28-passenger frequencies available each of the next two years. 14 - used on any route except Sao Paulo 14 - used on any route except Sao Pau
44 mcdu : US is not flying to GRU currently. They are operating only CLT-GIG. Do you have a reference on their move to GRU?
45 LipeGIG : Everyone is fighting for the low yield market because there's what they need. The business market continues very strong and there's few discount busi
46 MaverickM11 : I haven't, but I would think landing a longhaul carrier would be a coup for VCP, no matter what the airport looks like now.
47 mah4546 : Would not surprise me to see American apply for Fortaleza or Porto Alegre.
48 CNForever : POA would be a great addition on AA network. AA and maybe DL will be the sole appliers for this round in my opinion. Do you think that GIG will be app
49 ScottB : I don't think it's all that far-fetched when you consider that Delta decided to jump into MIA-LHR using the slots ceded by BA. They've added feed fro
50 LipeGIG : Would not be a surprise to me. FOR and POA are the potential new markets. The same way, AA and DL would again be the sole players. About GIG... i cou
51 CNForever : Yesterday, the flight that departed from ATL to BSB diverted to CNF due to bad weather conditions in BSB. This flight operates with the 757. If it has
52 commavia : I think it is at least somewhat farfetched considering the strength of AA and TAM in the market, but either way, that wasn't even the main point I wa
53 RG787 : It probably reached CNF using the extra fuel every flight needs for those cases. I'm not sure if a 757 could do CNF-ATL year-round fully loaded, cons
54 LipeGIG : If they do that, will be a clear challenge on American's dominant position in Miami. Not so much for Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires, destinations with be
55 CNForever : But it can not divert to BSB before goes to CNF ?
56 RG787 : Sure, but what if (example) something happens while the plane is near CNF and no suitable airports are in range? It's not a problem on the ATL-CNF le
57 RG787 : Even if the 757 has the legs, there might be restrictions to payload, which could make the flight unprofitable.
58 VC10er : With the "possible" loss of TAM from Star Alliance would United want to grab a couple of these? At least EWR to Rio? Also, I get there would be hundre
59 CODC10 : I think CO/UA could fill a 767-300ER (or even a -200ER) EWR-GIG pretty capably in its own right.
60 LipeGIG : I agree, but i doubt they will venture into it. Easy to see IAH-GIG become 772 than that.
61 jfkgig : NYC-GIG still seems so terribly underserved that I certainly hope they take the opportunity to start EWR-GIG. There aren't too many connectable city
62 LipeGIG : It is a city pair that in the past was said as impossible to be profitable, now is 2x daily and seems not enough for the demand. JJ GIG-JFK flights n
63 mah4546 : It is not underserved at all. It is just a little larger than GIGLIS and smaller than GIGCDG or GIGMIA. Two dailies is just right for the market, whi
64 jfkgig : Indeed. Of course NYC-PVG, NYC-PEK, and NYC-DEL were also once thought impossible to be profitable. But the world has changed a lot -- though some pe
65 mah4546 : Nothing outdated at all. The O&D market on NYCGIG between JAN10 and DEC10 was 140 PDEW. That's a fact.
66 RG787 : Sources?
67 LipeGIG : 140 PDEW is indeed more than two years ago while no non-stop was available. After October AA introduced the second one, and the 60-70 daily said pass
68 jfkgig : You can say its a fact, but my own eyes tell me otherwise. I don't need to rely upon anybody's statistics, as I can observe the situation myself. Whe
69 mah4546 : If you wish to be in denial, that's fine. The O&D is 140 PDEW. For comparison sake, MIAGIG Is 180 PDEW and CDGGIG is 213 PDEW, or do you want to
70 jfkgig : I most surely do dispute them as being true in 2010 or 2011. They are not remotely correct (although I would concede that the ratios do not necessari
71 mah4546 : That's fine. They are 100% incorrect. You are in denial about them, so be it, I can't do anything about your denial. Feel free to PM me your email ad
72 LipeGIG : The point is just that, the analysis covers just 10% of the tickets. It is a sample, for sure, may be one of the best informations available, but it h
73 DFWEagle : I expect DL will apply for four GIG frequencies to use on ATL-GIG, so that they can release the current unrestricted frequencies for more DTW-GRU or A
74 C010T3 : It's getting old having you defend MIDT data or any other as if it were perfect and flawless. If it were true, we would have a perfectly adjusted mar
75 mah4546 : The analysis is the industry standard. Every airline uses it in studying market size. It is the "bible" in market size. I understand that some might
76 C010T3 : Surprising it is not, but NYC-GIG has been larger consistently in the last decade. The explanation for this shift is actually somewhat obvious. The o
77 LipeGIG : I just expect DL to make DTW-GRU daily. Easy to make DFW-GIG daily, and that's what i expect in the near future. The effect is almost the same. In th
78 Dellatorre : Stubborness seems to be taken to whole new level in this Topic. It´s obvious that this so called flawless data is important to analyse & predict
79 mah4546 : NYCGIG has historically not been a bigger market. It is indeed bigger during a small period in the winter, likely as New Yorkers go to visit Rio, but
80 VC10er : How do some of you figure that the new UNITED would be fine from IAD and not starting EWR? Once the merger is complete wouldn't UA be better with EWR
81 LipeGIG : AA in fact does not offer F to GIG. My doubt is that, does UA have two 763 available to run EWR-GIG with them ?
82 Cubsrule : What does IAD-GIG add for a carrier flying EWR-GIG? I think the answer is nothing (except, obviously, for taking up Brasil frequencies - but I have a
83 Post contains links C010T3 : If that's true, why hasn't anyone disputed the data on the following filings? It seems that the airlines are trying to trick the DOT into thinking th
84 mah4546 : Airline lawyers love to play games with the data they submit to DOT. All airlines do it, so other's generally don't call them out on it unless its a
85 lucky777 : Some???? Some???? It wouldn't surprise me one bit if at least 50% of ALL Delta's Brazil service is Florida-bound. Namely South Florida and Orlando. I
86 C010T3 : Both CO and AA used MIDT data.
87 jfkgig : I think apologies are well in order, but it is not for bringing out "facts", but rather trying to fixate on imprecise statistics over first hand obse
88 Cubsrule : Your attack on Mah begs the question: how many passengers are there? "More than 140" isn't very precise. If it's 141, then this is a silly argument.
89 lucky777 : Oh...the bags are definitely headed somewhere, and it ain't ATL or DTW. Color me stupid, but my guess is DTW and ATL aren't exactly hotspots for Sout
90 Post contains links LipeGIG : Good point. If they don't fly none, they could introduce one, right ? That's the point right now, there's no United flight from East coast to Rio de
91 VC10er : Just to be sure as it is such a critical flight for me: the seasonal UNITED non-stop flight from Washington Dulles to Rio de Janeiro has been cancell
92 peanuts : Very decent post. There is a place for statistics. There are also limitations to it. Ask yourself: if these PDEW's are fact based than market stimula
93 C010T3 : Not necessarily, if UA chooses to apply for extra-bilateral frequencies for peak season, they could still fly the route, but UA no longer holds the f
94 Cubsrule : Yes, and I think EWR-GIG would do well. But with EWR-GIG, IAD-GIG makes no sense.
95 DFWEagle : Why has US not started CLT-GRU yet? Have they been unable to obtain appropriate slots at GRU or is there some other reason?
96 C010T3 : Yes, US has been having problems not only with slots, but apparently also with office and check-in counter space.
97 jfkgig : Indeed, and there are some very obvious limitations to this data, which is not at all reliable. Perfect public information does not exist, and it is
98 LipeGIG : On that, i agree 100% with you Cubsrule. They are competitive flights from the same carrier and Washington isn't such a big market for 2 daily flight
99 mah4546 : It is clearly sourced as DOT O&D data in the links you provided me.
100 mah4546 : The number is based on traffic between JAN10 and DEC10, and includes connecting passengers. The market saw significant growth after JJ entered it non
101 Post contains images C010T3 : Then, you are not reading the right part. Here we have your beloved AA stating what you're denying.[Edited 2011-04-18 02:41:27]
102 LipeGIG : No one is ignoring anything. It's clear that the Rio-NYC market is bigger than 140 PDEW and as least now we see that the figure of 170 PDEW is accepta
103 incitatus : The way this discussion veered into dissing traffic data is to me final proof that anything that puts Rio is less than a positive light in this forum
104 mah4546 : No, we don't. I was reading the historical data, which you were alluding to, presented by Continental and sourced via DOT. There is no historical MID
105 Post contains images USAirALB : Insanely low?!! The cheapest flight in Y I can get this week is $1638 one way, not including taxes. I wouldn't consider this low. If this flight was
106 mah4546 : If people were actually buying last minute, one-way Y fares, that might be relevant. But I'll stick to actual, hard facts, not the price of a close-i
107 USAirALB : Yes and no. For the most part yes because in all my searches, AA was always the cheapest. But I found several days that DL was cheaper than US. And f
108 mah4546 : I am using actual data collected by a company. I'm not using sample searches of airline websites. The average one way U.S.-Rio fare between JAN10 and
109 LipeGIG : US pays the price of a limited J class, same problem that affects AA. DL, CO and JJ in fact have premium products (JJ have 40 premium seats for 181 Y
110 mah4546 : Huh? AA offers the most premium seats. How does it pay the price of having the smallest J cabin when it offers the most seats? What you are saying ma
111 LipeGIG : I believe i know it, Mark. But thanks for the remark. In 2005 i joined this forum. During that year i begin to dispute that IAH-GRU-GIG big focus was
112 DFWEagle : So, are these new Brazil applications due to be submitted today then? Looking forward to seeing what the carriers apply for.[Edited 2011-04-21 04:23:
113 MaverickM11 : I'd argue they have a bit of an advantage here: since they're not going to get much J traffic, they have one of the cheaper planes on the route, part
114 LipeGIG : Maverick, the most difficult seats to find to Brazil right now, even on US flights: business class. It's hard to see Y class packed on US CLT-GIG ser
115 LAXintl : Well the first airline has jumped in to express their interest. Florida based Amerijet International, Inc. seeks 7-weekly Brazil frequencies Amerijet
116 LipeGIG : Interesting to see cargo flights such as GIG-POS, MIA-MGF-MVD-MIA and CWB-POS. Thanks for sharing LAXIntl.
117 Post contains links C010T3 : Actually, it's MIA-CFB-POS-MIA, so CFB-POS. Source: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2011-0083-0001.1[Edited 2011-04-21 13:18:09
118 LipeGIG : Ops, just notice it is Cabo Frio (CFB), the airport closer to the Oil Fields and operations (Macae) With addition of 4 new frequencies it proposes 1x
119 AF086 : Interesting. No pax operators requested anything and the deadline is nigh.
120 C010T3 : Delta has applied for two weekly DTW-GRU frequencies and seven weekly ATL-MAO frequencies.
121 mah4546 : Spoken a little too soon. Delta's application literally went public in the past few minutes (seconds?). Two frequencies for ATL-GIG, so that it can t
122 C010T3 : Actually three MIA-CNF, since it's already 4x weekly.
123 LipeGIG : That's interesting: "Delta requests that its Manaus proposal be funded from the Rio-eligible pool. This will provide Delta flexibility to offer addit
124 LipeGIG : As expected, confirmed. I was not that wrong, with the exception of ATL-BSB that i could expect more from DL and DFW-GIG which i was expecting more f
125 AF086 : Indeed. If DL just wants to store frequencies for GIG, why don't they just fly JFK-GIG and actually use them. And with AA entering the MAO market, DL
126 LipeGIG : Probably they want to further research the market or they just want to wait a little more. A daily 763 would produce generating loss is for sure wors
127 AF086 : True but their request is based on weak premisses. The DoT can just say: "You tried ATL-MAO and it failed. If you want GIG, apply to fly there. Sitti
128 C010T3 : Not exactly. By warehousing frequencies like that, they can prevent other airlines from flying to GIG later on. If there is no other application, the
129 incitatus : With open skies in the horizon does this make any sense?
130 LipeGIG : I agree with you, however, if no other application is required, for sure DOT will grant them the frequencies. It is a good strategy to block the acce
131 C010T3 : The DOT doesn't have to, especially if other airlines argue that that is not consistent with the public interest. Open Skies will start in 2015.
132 mah4546 : It's not for sure at all. It's actually very unlikely DOT will grant Delta GIG-eligible more than what is necessary (which is 5). To do so in anti-co
133 commavia : Hmmm. So Delta wants 2 frequencies for Detroit-Sao Paulo, and to warehouse as many Rio frequencies as possible, and AA wants to move their existing su
134 mah4546 : Everyone. More frequencies available than applied for.
135 commavia : Ah, of course - didn't look up at the OP and see what was available. Cool. So, I guess the next question is: how will these flights do? Going to dail
136 LipeGIG : And i believe that's the point, AA probably will not complain because if not granted to DL the frequencies will just stay available and also, there w
137 jj8080 : When you search on expedia for flights like GRU-JFK/MIA on Business, usually US offers very low (around 2.300-2.500 usd) fares via GIG/CLT, with GRU-
138 C010T3 : Well, that's not in AA's interest, since they could well want to increase DFW-GIG down the road. A lot can happen in 17 months, so, having as many fr
139 Rafabozzolla : Can anyone provide a link to the requests?
140 LipeGIG : All they could ask is 4x weekly or a second MIA-GIG, but if AA asked just for more CNF/BSB service plus the introduction of MAO-MIA, i don't expect t
141 jj8080 : On US, via CLT? That's definitely the highest fare I've seen for US. Couldn't get anything better on AA or JJ? Also, IMO both AA and JJ has better pr
142 crAAzy : I'm a little confused. !4 available frequencies in Oct. 2011 (except GRU) and 14 frequencies in Oct. 2012 (except GIG/GRU). So applications from the f
143 mah4546 : It is 14 of each category, in each year, so a total of 46 over two years.
144 LipeGIG : AA will receive 10 non-GIG frequencies and 4 will continue available. DL asked for 9 GIG frequencies but it's not clear that they will get all of the
145 C010T3 : Actually, 56 frequencies over two years, but cargo frequencies are not considered, they come from another pool, which will see an addition of 14 freq
146 nwaesc : I don't see where there is any conflict at all. DL only applied for 2 of the 14 available frequencies that can be used only for GIG in order to transf
147 LipeGIG : Not in fact. DL is requesting 9 GIG frequencies Delta requests that its Manaus proposal be funded from the Rio-eligible pool. This will provide Delta
148 smoot4208 : I was surprised that AA didn't apply for MIA-FOR or MIA-BEL
149 LipeGIG : Brazilian Northeast (FOR) is still a difficult area for USA airlines in my view. The region received a lot of investments, from Europeans, but almost
150 MiAAmi : Does it indicate in the application when start up would be and what aircraft type will be used on MIA-MAO?
151 C010T3 : Yes, AA included the following details: MIA-MAO - B738 - Eff. Jun 14, 2012 MIA-CNF - B763 - Eff. Dec 15, 2011 MIA-BSB - B752 - Eff. Dec 15, 2011 Whil
152 bobnwa :
153 LipeGIG : The only airline that i could expect will be asking for more GRU services would be DL with may be MIA-GRU and a second ATL-GRU. AA have frequencies o
154 incitatus : Which ones are those markets? There is really only one: BEL. It is too small to hold service on its own and DL will face TAM serving BEL-MAO-MIA. The
155 Post contains links commavia : Here is the official press release from AA.
156 LAXintl : Kalitta Air Cargo today put in its own request with the DOT for Brazil frequencies. Kalitta proposes to commence MIA-MAO-VCP-SCL-MIA services 4x weekl
157 commavia : Interestingly, AA and Delta today filed a joint application with the DoT in light of the fact that there are more than enough available frequencies to
158 Post contains images md94 : Bummer, personally I was wishing for VCP to save the hassle of going through GRU. Our last departure through GRU was a nightmare and I would prefer to
159 jj8080 : GRU is indeed a nightmare sometimes (a lot of times), mainly for arrivals. And in fact, depending on traffic, sometimes you can get to VCP quicker th
160 LipeGIG : Brazil allowed that, now we are all paying the price. During many years the country do not impose limits or rules, and we see traffic focusing on a s
161 Post contains images md94 : I have been tempted to fly into another city for immigration and then catch a domestic flight to VCP. But, the direct flight from ORD-GRU is hard to l
162 incitatus : Brazil allowed that by not investing in GRU.
163 LipeGIG : And by adding more than it can handle.... good for the users, they have the convenience, bad also as they have no comfort at all. I will make a bet w
164 nwaesc : Just out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on US-Curitiba (CWB) flights? Not just from a business point of view, but from a "it'd be nice if ai
165 jj8080 : I think the northbound leg could face payload/range restrictions due to runway limitations at CWB. Besides that, I think a 3/4x weekly service could
166 Cubsrule : It'd be interesting to see the numbers on a 752 to MIA. Range-wise it's tough but doable and I don't know many places where the 752 has runway perfor
167 LipeGIG : Totally. CWB will be probably the largest city in the Americas without long haul service as POA will be served by TP to LIS. Correct, but even more,
168 jj8080 : It could be flown MIA-CWB-POA-MIA with 763, this way the plane would be easily filled and the runway limitations at CWB wouldn't be an isue.
169 LipeGIG : Agreed, but i do expect CWB first to be served with one-stop service by any airline looking to secure an important market where now all have the same
170 jj8080 : AA could add a tag to CNF service.
171 LipeGIG : It could work for a route not already in place. CNF already fills the planes and to create a CWB leg, would not produce the additional revenue to off
172 jj8080 : I see your point. However let's wait and see if load don't drop when CNF becomes daily. It's a shame JJ doesn't have equipment to take over CWB. In f
173 LipeGIG : JJ can have the equipment next year. They can fly CWB-SSA-MIA for example, using B763 For them is just perfect as they can sell CWB-SSA-CWB
174 jj8080 : Agreed. But with one or two additional B763 (which must not be that difficult to find), they would be able to expand on services like the ones I ment
175 LAXintl : DOT decision is out Delta gets 9 frequencies: o 7x ATL-MAO effective December 18th o 2x DTW-GRU effecive December 18th American gets 10 frequencies: o
176 LAXintl : DOT out now with the cargo frequency allocations also. Amerijet o 3x frequencies available immediately o 4x frequencies available effective October 1,
177 jj8080 : Will Amerijet use these frequencies right away? Any possible routes and a/c type?
178 LAXintl : See Reply 115....
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