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USAirways: Parker Still Shopping Co. Around  
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18149 times:

Apologies if this already had another thread - didn't see it.

Link

Doug Parker is still shopping USAirways around as a prospective merger partner and believes there is one big deal left in terms of consolidation among the big U.S. legacy carriers, and he says that he is ready to make a deal when another airline is ready to make a deal.

Now, to me, this strongly points to several immediate conclusions:

1. If he is talking specifically about a consolidation move among the legacy carriers, that can only mean AA, since I highly doubt United or Delta would ever now be allowed by regulators to take over USAirways

2. As has long been discussed here on A.net and elsewhere, any hypothetical merger with AA would bring huge benefits, but also massive challenges, to the combined company

3. AA would likely find real value in USAirways' presence at premium, business-heavy airports (particularly in the Northeast) like LaGuardia, Reagan, Boston and Philadelphia, although AA may be forced to relinquish some of that presence by regulators in order to secure regulatory approval

4. AA would also likely find value in Charlotte, a large and relatively non-competitive hub located in a growing and dynamic metro area, and serving a growing and dynamic region

5. AA would find absolutely no value in Phoenix, which I suspect would be closed very quickly under a merger scenario

6. Labor relations at both companies would go from bad to toxic to World War III rather quickly

Just my $0.02. It is hard for me, personally, to imagine it happening - at least with AA - but it is interesting.

[Edited 2011-04-07 08:59:12]

176 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineboeingkid From United States of America, joined May 2009, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 18115 times:

I could see this coming

User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 18096 times:

The fleet integration would be a total mess.

off the top of my head, narrowbodies we have
MD-81
MD-82
MD-83
733
738
A320 CFM
A320 IAE
757

More 738/A320 on order. Perhaps they could replace the Mad Dogs faster this way at the combined company.

Engines from PW, CFM, IAE, RR. Ughhh...

Widebodies wouldn't be quite as bad.

762ER
763ER
A332(?)
A333
772ER

On order: A330, A350, 787-9, 773ER.

The widebody order book would have to be rationalized, of course. No ideas about how that would turn out.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 18096 times:

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
6. Labor relations at both companies would go from bad to toxic to World War III rather quickly

To put it mildly, that is true.

I really do think trhat issue, in so many ways, just about offsets all the positive points you listed. So much so, I dont think AA will touch that one with a ten foot pole.

What happens to US, I dont know. Maybe it will just die a slow death.

Hell they are still flying planes that still have the Piedmont and PSA background colors on them. I saw one ,of each ,in the last ouple of weeks.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7831 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 18041 times:

Hmm not the best of matches, PHX and LAX compete, and the NE is a mess, but shedding some of those assets (less capacity in the system) may be best for the system. With JFK/LGA being so big for AA and LGA being so big for US, I wonder if that slot swap between DL and US may HAVE to happen before AA and US merge to prevent such a huge AA/US at NYC. Then again, I'd have to look at numbers, and I'm hardly an "expert"


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAAExecPlat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 634 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17980 times:

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
Doug Parker is still shopping USAirways around as a prospective merger partner and believes there is one big deal left in terms of consolidation among the big U.S. legacy carriers, and he says that he is ready to make a deal when another airline is ready to make a deal.

Surprise surprise  
Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
1. If he is talking specifically about a consolidation move among the legacy carriers, that can only mean AA, since I highly doubt United or Delta would ever now be allowed by regulators to take over USAirways

Bingo.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
2. As has long been discussed here on A.net and elsewhere, any hypothetical merger with AA would bring huge benefits, but also massive challenges, to the combined company

Bingo.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
3. AA would likely find real value in USAirways' presence at premium, business-heavy airports (particularly in the Northeast) like LaGuardia, Reagan, Boston and Philadelphia, although AA may be forced to relinquish some of that presence by regulators in order to secure regulatory approval

Bingo.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
4. AA would also likely find value in Charlotte, a large and relatively non-competitive hub located in a growing and dynamic metro area, and serving a growing and dynamic region

Not so sure about that one.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
5. AA would find absolutely no value in Phoenix, which I suspect would be closed very quickly under a merger scenario

Bingo.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
6. Labor relations at both companies would go from bad to toxic to World War III rather quickly

I disagree. AA HAS to merge and AA HAS to get their labor costs down. This merger could accomplish both. The fact is that status quo for AA means bk eventually. To get ahead of this, they need to restructure labor rates, they need more fuel efficient panes, they need less competition, and they need a more comprehensive route structure. That's exactly what this merger would do. I still contend that this merger WILL happen in the next 2-3 years, no matter what labor relations are for both airlines...they need each other more than they care to admit.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7511 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17934 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 3):
Hell they are still flying planes that still have the Piedmont and PSA background colors on them.

Those are Heritage/retro schemes and were intentionally painted as such following the 2005 HP/US merger.

Additionally, there are 5 of them out there:

1 - Piedmont
1 - PSA
1- Allegheney
and
2 - America West (one in the original livery (80s), the other in the final livery (90s))

Personally, I think Parker still feels jilted that his last 2 merger attempts were ultimately countered by his targets (first DL and then UA) merging with other carriers (NW and CO respectively); and is sounding like an ugly prostitute with an urge to merge but finding no takers.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17918 times:

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
2. As has long been discussed here on A.net and elsewhere, any hypothetical merger with AA would bring huge benefits, but also massive challenges, to the combined company

Labor between the two companies in an AA/US merger would be a HUGE, HUGE issue. They havent even straightened out the whole US east/US west thing yet (or have they?)

The network would be unique, not fantastic like the new UA, but certainly a powerful one. I could see the DOT being iffy about a JFK/PHL hub -- two major hubs in such close prioximity to one another, but they could also work off each other for a mutual hub benefit. Regarding BOS and LGA, US is already kind of sinking in both markets, with DL on the complete offensive in each.

MAJOR HUBS would be: DCA, JFK, PHL, CLT, DFW, ORD, PHX, MIA. A solid network indeed. I wouldn't lump PHX as a goner and it's the company HQ for US and a major hub for them. Just the flight alone between PHX-DFW is almost an hour. They are not as closely situated as one would think.

Also another major benefit: With some downsizing in the overall network, AA could dump the S80s in favor of US's modern airbus fleet. That's a BIG TIME plus.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1786 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17879 times:

If US does merge with AA, what do you think the surviving name would be?

[Edited 2011-04-07 09:20:27]

User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17878 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 3):
Hell they are still flying planes that still have the Piedmont and PSA background colors on them. I saw one ,of each ,in the last ouple of weeks.

They're supposed to look like that...they're retrojets   You'll even find an old HP one as well as an AL one.

I'm not surprised that US is shopping itself around, but I don't know if AA will want it, based on the labor mess alone.
Moreover, the value in the NE business markets might be negated by government regulators demanding divestiture of assets.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17883 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 8):

American name with US colors (IMHO, not a bad thing.) I think the current US scheme is actually beautiful, just can't say the same thing about the interiors of the aircraft itself.  



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7831 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17828 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 8):

If US does merge with AA, what do you think the surviving name would be?

American. I'd bet my unborn child on it. US was ready to become DL, and as much as I love DL... it's "AMERICAN Airlines," it's American aviation... it will definitely stay



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7760 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17818 times:

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
6. Labor relations at both companies would go from bad to toxic to World War III rather quickly

I believe that this is the biggest barrier to a marriage between AA and US.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 2):
The fleet integration would be a total mess.

If DL/NW and now UA/CO have taught us anything is that it doesn't matter. The reality is that each fleet is of large enough that for the near term commonality matters little. Obviously long-term a strategy would need to be put into place to deal with the retirement of older and less fuel efficient aircraft.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
PHX and LAX compete,

Kinda sorta but not really. I basically agree with the OP that the a PHX hub wouldn't last under the merged airline. If AA can get a reasonable critical mass at LAX and be able to maintain it, they can keep a reasonable piece of the west coast pie without having to compete head to head at one of WN's largest "hubs".

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
and the NE is a mess

I'll agree to disagree here. It is a huge market but in order to make the merger kosher there will need to be a divestiture of slots and such. I see PHL remaining b/c it is a large hub serving a large city that can support service on its own. Obviously I see the operation being tweaked to make it run better when weather is not so hot, but it stays. JFK can stay more or less as-is.

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
4. AA would also likely find value in Charlotte, a large and relatively non-competitive hub located in a growing and dynamic metro area, and serving a growing and dynamic region

CLT is the crown jewel. A well set up hub in a growing and economically diverse metro. Not to mention a generally nice airport to travel through.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17724 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 12):
CLT is the crown jewel. A well set up hub in a growing and economically diverse metro. Not to mention a generally nice airport to travel through

And WN just bought their way into it with the upcoming purchase of Airtrain.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17724 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
Labor between the two companies in an AA/US merger would be a HUGE, HUGE issue.

Yep - probably an understatement. As I said, World War III.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
I could see the DOT being iffy about a JFK/PHL hub -- two major hubs in such close prioximity to one another, but they could also work off each other for a mutual hub benefit.

True, although regulators allowed EWR and IAD as dual hubs without any issue.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
Regarding BOS and LGA, US is already kind of sinking in both markets, with DL on the complete offensive in each.

Delta is definitely on the "complete offensive" in LGA and New York in general, but not in BOS where they have, generally, been retrenching just like all the other legacy carriers in the last few years.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
MAJOR HUBS would be: DCA, JFK, PHL, CLT, DFW, ORD, PHX, MIA. A solid network indeed.

From a purely network perspective, yeah, it would definitely enhance AA's network, particularly in the east.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
I wouldn't lump PHX as a goner and it's the company HQ for US and a major hub for them. Just the flight alone between PHX-DFW is almost an hour. They are not as closely situated as one would think.

Respectfully, I think PHX would be a goner - not beause of its proximity to DFW. It serves the exact same traffic flows as DFW and LAX, true, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that AA is not going to have a hub at PHX when Southwest also has a hub there - I just don't see it happening.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 8):
If US does merge with AA, what do you think the surviving name would be?

American. Definitely American. American is by far the larger, more recognized brand in virtually every region of the world and definitely every region internationally.

[Edited 2011-04-07 09:44:36]

User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17647 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
American. Definitely American. American is by far the larger, more recognized brand in virtually every region of the world and definitely every region internationally.

I agree. For some reason I could envision the US flag logo surviving over the AA logo, if push came to shove (ego's involved.)

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
I wouldn't lump PHX as a goner and it's the company HQ for US and a major hub for them. Just the flight alone between PHX-DFW is almost an hour. They are not as closely situated as one would think.

Respectfully, I think PHX would be a goner - not beause of its proximity to DFW. It serves the exact same traffic flows as DFW and LAX, true, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that AA is not going to have a hub at PHX when Suothwest also has a hub there - I just don't see it happening.

That is true. Hypothetically, if they downsized PHX, all those airbuses could move to DFW and then *BOOM* the S80s are finally gone.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7760 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17559 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 13):
And WN just bought their way into it with the upcoming purchase of Airtrain.

AirTran's handful of flights to ATL and BWI are hardly a threat to the US hub at CLT, IMO.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
Respectfully, I think PHX would be a goner - not beause of its proximity to DFW. It serves the exact same traffic flows as DFW and LAX, true, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that AA is not going to have a hub at PHX when Suothwest also has a hub there - I just don't see it happening.

I agree, but to play devil's advocate. AA can only expand so much at LAX. But at PHX they could support a much larger hub operation. If they drew down PHX and ultimately if the current LAX expansion did not work they'd be left with a major hole in the western US compared to UA and DL.


Now if Phoenix were economically more like say Denver or Charlotte, even with a large WN presence, I could see the hub staying.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17515 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
Also another major benefit: With some downsizing in the overall network, AA could dump the S80s in favor of US's modern airbus fleet. That's a BIG TIME plus.

Unless you are talking replacement with new build frames, we are back to the labor issues. Who gets furloughed? AA MD80 guys? Nobody until SLI?

Quoting rj777 (Reply 8):
If US does merge with AA, what do you think the surviving name would be?

I agree with American's name on US Air's paint scheme. The AA scheme isn't going to work on the new generation of composite skins. I'm sure someone sharper than me will have a rendering of that up on this thread shortly.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2214 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17518 times:

The only way I could see AA merging with US would be if US filed Chapter XI as part of the transaction.

That way, AA would only have to add the aircraft, employees, and facilities that they wanted, rather than taking over the entire company.

Of course, given AA's troubles, a transaction could work the other way around, where the two airlines merged after AA filed Chapter XI......



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17501 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 16):
But at PHX they could support a much larger hub operation.

In terms of available gates and infrastructure, yes. Competitively, no. AA's cost structure and business model is far more aligned with a market like LAX than PHX, and is definitely not built to compete directly with Southwest.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 16):
If they drew down PHX and ultimately if the current LAX expansion did not work they'd be left with a major hole in the western US compared to UA and DL.

That assumes that United (and/or more likely Delta) don't also draw down their LAX operations under that hypothetical scenario.


User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17441 times:

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 5):
I disagree. AA HAS to merge and AA HAS to get their labor costs down. This merger could accomplish both. The fact is that status quo for AA means bk eventually. To get ahead of this, they need to restructure labor rates, they need more fuel efficient panes, they need less competition, and they need a more comprehensive route structure.

I agree AA has to get their labor costs down.
AA needs more fuel efficient planes, but they are doing this by purchasing new 738's and new 773's right now.
AA, like every other airline, might want less competition, but so much has already been removed over the last few yrs (Northwest, Continental, Aloha, AirTran, ATA) that I'm not sure we really want to lose many more airlines. Fares have been going up dramatically on top of all the new fee's that have been introduced. From a consumer point of view, I'm not so sure we want anymore mergers.
I think AA's route structure domestically is fine. They have 5 "hubs" and thats plenty. I really don't think they need anymore than that. And they really don't need much more flying in the US. They need more international flying. Also in my opinion, the international flying should originate from their 5 hubs. I was recently looking at flights to London and I realized AA flies from Raleigh and Boston non-stop to London. I'm not really sure why they do that. Why not just funnel more London flights through those 5 hubs and use larger airplanes, like the 773's?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17401 times:

The most important part of such a merger would be a dramatic change in AA's management. As in, most of them would be retired and I could see Doug Parker in charge. He has a track record of solid financial performance... AA not.

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
AA's cost structure and business model is far more aligned with a market like LAX than PHX, and is definitely not built to compete directly with Southwest.

This is why AA needs deep changes that such a merger would bring. Grafting US Airways onto AA would do absolutely nothing but increase US's costs and both airlines would be gone quickly. They essentially both need to feed into a brand new airline. Possibly re-branded. At the very least, it would need to be a "new AA" with a lot of new faces and new contracts... a new business model.


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1786 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17185 times:

I could see it maybe coming together as American Airways.

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17129 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Not so sure about that one.

Charlotte is the second-largest banking and financial center in the country, on those merits alone it's just fine as a hub city.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
Just the flight alone between PHX-DFW is almost an hour.

More like an hour and a half+

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 12):
If DL/NW and now UA/CO have taught us anything is that it doesn't matter. The reality is that each fleet is of large enough that for the near term commonality matters little. Obviously long-term a strategy would need to be put into place to deal with the retirement of older and less fuel efficient aircraft.

Consolidation would mean the end of the 80s. Too much capacity anyway and doing away with them would probably result in a pretty decent situation.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
I agree. For some reason I could envision the US flag logo surviving over the AA logo,

Hopefully.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 16):
Now if Phoenix were economically more like say Denver or Charlotte, even with a large WN presence, I could see the hub staying.

Even as more of a low-revenue market without the financial presence of Denver or Charlotte, there are enough people around Phoenix to make up for it...it's like the 12th largest metro in the country with almost 4.5 million.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 17):
Unless you are talking replacement with new build frames, we are back to the labor issues. Who gets furloughed? AA MD80 guys? Nobody until SLI?

Probably plenty of early-outs.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
Of course, given AA's troubles, a transaction could work the other way around, where the two airlines merged after AA filed Chapter XI......

Most likely. Much like the HP-US situation was.

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
In terms of available gates and infrastructure, yes. Competitively, no. AA's cost structure and business model is far more aligned with a market like LAX than PHX, and is definitely not built to compete directly with Southwest.

Well, yes, but the whole point would be for the new airline to adopt something closer to the US cost structure, not the other way around.


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17118 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 16):
AirTran's handful of flights to ATL and BWI are hardly a threat to the US hub at CLT, IMO.

So Airtran has two gates at CLT and currently only serves ATL & BWI as you point out. Per flightaware they have 2 a day to BWI and 2 a day to ATL. But what is stopping WN from serving DEN which is a high priced flight? Or for that matter MDW to get some of that ORD traffic or other routes with higher yields?

Two flights in and out per day per gate doesn't seem like much. Is CLT slot restricted or gate restricted? I remember reading in other posts that WN tries to get 6 or 7 flights per day per gate. That gives some ability to go looking for US's better performing routes which will affect the value of CLT as a hub if the airport is gate restricted as opposed to slot restricted.


25 STT757 : Not really since DL is big at LGA too, most likely AA would divest whatever amount of slots were required to get the merger approved and no more. Mos
26 Post contains images smoot4208 : Parker has said they would like to remain in the driver's seat--> which means it would be US buying AA at least on paper
27 cjpmaestro : The article states they may even continue as a stand alone. They ended last year with a full year profit, continue to have record load factors and ran
28 eclipseflight7 : The discussion has been primarily focused on American, but doesn't US Airways have the ability to collect smaller airlines to put in its basket? Repub
29 AeroWesty : I'm not convinced AA cares much about serving the local traffic within and between the west coast and intermountain west regions on their own metal.
30 Alias1024 : There are several options available. The obvious one is a merger with AA, but as many others have said that would be a labor nightmare and likely resu
31 seatback : Although an AA merger would create a giant, surpassing UA/CO, I'm not sure AA gets much out of the deal. For DL they got Asia. UA gets NYC, Europe and
32 PPVRA : I still like JetBlue + US Airways. . . and keep the JetBlue name/brand/everything.
33 PHLBOS : The only way I see that happening would be if US were to go Chapter 7 and B6 picks up the pieces.
34 MPDPilot : This is a popular topic but it has it's merits. I think the US/AA tie up could work it would just work off of a masive constriction. Yes the airline w
35 AeroSafari : Everyone always seems to leave Hawaiian Airlines out of the mix. A US + HA merger would work quite nicely on a route map with flights in the Pacific a
36 Post contains images CV880 : Precisely what WN needs to do at CLT....DEN/MDW/NYC.......and the Airport will create gates for WN if it needs to.
37 blueflyer : +1 I'll raise you one further and put both airlines under bankruptcy proceedings, then have a new entity cherry picks the good assets. That takes car
38 Post contains images TOMMY767 : Maybe B6 would somehow get involved?
39 HPRamper : Network, yes...fleet, no. US is actively trying to move to all-Airbus and they would be instantly taking on a 737 and *shudder* MD-80 fleet. I do lik
40 flyguy89 : AS retired their MD-80's a few years ago...so no, they would not be taking on MD-80's. Charlotte is the second-largest banking center on the metric o
41 mogandoCI : Regulators would force this "value" to evaporate. The combined AA/US would control too much of LGA and BOS, particularly the Northeast Shuttle. The h
42 Cubsrule : I'm not sure about the infrastructure, at least without wrecking the passenger experience. While they could get to ~400 flights/day out of the curren
43 USAirALB : I agree, but I believe US would be the surviving airline. Who is the one making money right now? US or AA? I disagree. If pax want to fly BUF-TPA on
44 kiwiandrew : I'm going to get majorly flamed for this, but here is another ( remote) possibility. If AA don't get their house in order soon they could be the ones
45 Maverick623 : Since nobody else has thrown this out there, I'll state the obvious: I'm very confused by the fascination with US/AA, because it will NEVER happen. Tw
46 etops1 : Trust me guys ,it will not be AA..My bet is the new UA ...
47 TUSdawg23 : Wow i never thought of that do you really think Doug Parker and company would really be willing to completely dismantle what theyve tried for so long
48 HPRamper : My bad, I should have just said "banking," implying that yes, in terms of percentage of financial institutions across the United States, Charlotte is
49 JTR : I cannot think of a worse merger, in terms of labor relations, than USAir-American.
50 flyguy89 : MIA is really the ideal north-south connecting hub and is, I believe, AA's highest yielding hub. Yes no doubt they're constricted with using the 50-s
51 AAExecPlat : Looks like some here are getting hung up on labor, fleet, etc as reasons why a merger between AA and US would be impossible. I don't see these as prob
52 adtall : For US/Europe - Latin America/Caribbean, sure. Within the US? Nope.
53 msypi7185 : Nope! WN has always been free to serve CLT anytime they wanted. Gates have always been available through the city of CLT. WN saw better opprotunities
54 TUSdawg23 : I can understand by your username why you are looking at things largely from the AA standpoint, but you have to take the US standpoint into equal con
55 EA CO AS : Actually, AA is the one who would need a Chapter 11 filing - I doubt US would want to get into bed with them until their balance sheet was in order.
56 dsuairptman : AA's labor cost will not be brought down by a merger nor will US labor issues. Airbii vs. Boeing, not good. I think AA can make it on its own and its
57 goblin211 : Call me optimistic but I think the airlines are exaggerating their problems and will get over this rough patch. UA and DL might've merged and are now
58 Cubsrule : What's wrong with flying the 190 or 175 at US/RW rates? Why is that a negative? With $100 oil, what's the CASM difference between a US 190 and a DL o
59 Alias1024 : The problem with a full merger with US is that it doesn't address most of the holes in the AA network. It doesn't do anything for Asia or Africa and
60 Carls : I am astonish with the fact that we have not seen yet any post like: "AA will dump all the A330 will send to storage all the A32X family and of course
61 Cubsrule : Given that AA has ATI with JL and soon will have CX in 3 of their 5 hubs, where are the holes in the Asia network? Certainly not Japan, China or Hong
62 brandonfsu05 : I think it's funny how everyone always frames these merger debates in what can benefit AA Lol. ''AA can use this'' ''AA doesn't need that'' ''AA wants
63 HPRamper : They needed one another network-wise and that is why they merged. HP was treading water and US was floundering and under assault by LCCs. It would ma
64 usflyer msp : I think US will eventually find some creative way to buy AA but not buy AA's employees. I am thinking of something along the lines of US buys AA, oper
65 Post contains images flyorski : This is the funniest quote ever! I think it goes down for quote of the week! I know that people love to hate on US however hating on them for doing o
66 stasisLAX : Splitting US East and US West in a sale (selling them them as seperate units) would resolve this issue IMHO. The losses that AA is posting cannot be
67 msypi7185 : This is a pilot union issue not a US management issue. Nothing is being brushed under the rug by management. Management can do anything until the pil
68 flyguy89 : The E190 is technically a mainline aircraft for US so I did not include it, but the others are high CASM (even with the advances the e-jets have made
69 Flighty : That's ridiculous. The US merger completed years ago. Yes the pilots have a division. Guess what, 737 pilots don't fly A330s at any airline I ever he
70 flyguy89 : I'm sure that if AA acquired US's operating costs in such a merger that DFW would be the most profitable hub, but CLT would probably de-emphasized to
71 Burkhard : I only see AA discussed here? What about Republic - this would create a giant out of two nothings...
72 milesrich : AA does not have any MD-81's, only 82's and 83's. And they are down to about 221 frames active airframes, the rest being in storage. They are being r
73 RyeFly : Something is up at US Airways. For years they have been known for being cheap and having bad consumer ratings, poor service, the king of fees, and hug
74 HPRamper : It's definitely been several years now since US bottomed out, it's been getting better for quite a while.
75 wn700driver : It's an hour if you have a 300kt tailwind maybe. It's almost always more than twice that. Agree, but it depends which interiors you mean. The old gra
76 PHX Flyer : I agree with your assessment of DP. Keep in mind, though, that the idea of a merger of LLC and AMR is, for the most part, entertained by a.netters an
77 Post contains images wn700driver : I both think and hope you're right... I sort of disagree on STAR though... Is it better than no alliance or Skyteam? Sure, a lot in fact. But I think
78 thegooddoctor : ...never been on this flight, have you? There's a state in between az and tx - it's new mexico. The flight is 2:15 to 2:30...
79 slcdeltarumd11 : I doubt this merger will ever happen. It just has too many problems matching planes, hubs, labor problems etc. I still think we'd see an AS-AA of AA-B
80 EMB170 : Just gave me a thought: What if AS made a deal with UA/CO that they would buy US-West, and then hand over the A319/A320 aircraft to UA/CO in exchange
81 Post contains images HPRamper : Well, true, except for that hot weather issue that kept US from loading their 757s up for the Hawaii flights...other than that, PHX is in a great loc
82 LAXdude1023 : Not quite. There are over 7 million people in the Bay Area, there are just over 4 million around Phoenix. Either way, MSA/CSA measurements arent the
83 HPRamper : Meh...I misread. Boston is a closer comparison for size. Largely meaning what, exactly?
84 mogandoCI :
85 LAXdude1023 : Meaning that even though a particular metro area may be smaller, it can gereate more high yielding O&D and be more international. The Phoenix met
86 HPRamper : Gotcha. I guess the SFO area (and SEA, LAX etc) have a lot of international ties. I'm also supposing international O&D is driven by more industry
87 flyguy89 : If they're making money for AA, they're not wasteful. I know that RDU in particular is subsidized by the pharmaceutical industry in the Research Tria
88 SPREE34 : Fooled you? US management isn't holding up anything. USAPA is. USAPA is holding up SLI, and pay raises for their members. USAPA is giving US Manageme
89 LDVAviation : And, how do you suppose this deal gets past regulators?
90 LAXdude1023 : I guess I weigh in with my two cents. A merger between AA and US would create a labor nightmare that this industry has never seen before. There is a c
91 BP1 : With all the focus on the double a's - why are Alaska and also Frontier not being discussed as possible bottom feeders being rolled into the US produc
92 HPRamper : I wouldn't exactly call either "bottom feeders" although some of us have...moreso F9 than AS but both have been discussed.
93 jlbmedia : Will someone please explain to me why every time US Airways is brought up in a merger discussion, most people just want to discard of PHL without a se
94 LAXdude1023 : Along with CLT, yes. CLT and PHL are solid preforming excellent hubs with a high yield O&D base. IMO PHX is what weighs US down, but I think they
95 HPRamper : I don't believe PHX is weighing anything down...HP had its main hub there long before the US deal and I don't think an airline could last very long i
96 yellowtail : I think in this case both AA and US are more valuable in pieces than as a whole Hypothtically if you were to break up AA, I would see the buyers as f
97 LAXdude1023 : DFW is too international a market to really have B6 or F9 step in. If anything I bet DL would probably be interesting in doing something with it (ass
98 kiwiandrew : Good luck getting that past the regulators . I would have said that UA would be the only carrier who you could categorically rule out because of thei
99 Maverick623 : The PHX hub, while pretty small on O&D, still makes more than enough to justify keeping it around. Especially now with the Flex scheduling, which
100 Post contains links and images phatfarmlines : It makes a much better case to put forth in front of the banks when it comes time to fund the merger as they can do it now, but recall during US/HP's
101 PHLBOS : In a nutshell, the remaining legacy carriers out there all have much larger hubs and/or international gateways that are located within close proximit
102 cjpmaestro : Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 94): IMO PHX is what weighs US down The PHX hub, while pretty small on O&D, still makes more than enough to justify kee
103 USAirALB : Just my thought. ?!!!!! It's a terrible North-South Connecting hub and AA knows this. First, you can't fly to MIA to smaller cities that would suppor
104 LAXdude1023 : Wishful thinking at best. No way in hell that would pass through regulations. I dont want them to merge with AA either. It would destroy them. US wou
105 EricR : The only benefit this merger brings AA is the elimination of an LCC competitor. I think the benefits mentioned are overstated for the following reaso
106 commavia : I think that might be the first merger (excepting bankruptcy situations) in modern airline history where labor costs fell, and didn't rise, post-merg
107 slcdeltarumd11 : We just saw so many mergers we may have seen the last of them. The remaining pairs dont fit together as nicely as those did. I think AA should just pa
108 Maverick623 : A little off topic but from the article Who knew we all would wish oil was at $50 a barrel?
109 EA CO AS : This will likely never happen, but if it did, I wouldn't bet on keeping the US name - the AS name may not be as widely known, but it carries far more
110 flyguy89 : I was talking about a north-south domestic-international hub, MIA is the perfect gateway to the Caribbean and Central and South America from the US.
111 jlbmedia : Although AS has no brand loyalty or even recognition any where else in the country. My money is on them keeping the US Airways name in this scenario.
112 EA CO AS : Perhaps you missed the part where the scenario discussed was AS getting just the PHX hub and Western U.S. operations, which primarily serves the West
113 PHX Flyer : I suggest that we defer this question until the new United has completed the consolidation process and eliminated all redundancies. The regulators wo
114 EricR : Agreed. US does not have the cost structure of AA, so they can compete profitably with WN in PHX (WN costs are not as cheap relative to the competiti
115 seatback : PHX may not be the hub it is today, but, under this merger scenario there would be a HUGE AAdvantage customer base, which I'm sure they wouldn't want
116 EricR : I agree that the region can support two legacy hubs, but I do not believe that AA would keep it as a hub - long term. Post merger, there is a high le
117 EMB170 : How large of an AAdvantage customer base did AA have in STL? or RDU or BNA for that matter? FF base, while important, isn't the sole factor that dete
118 ca2ohHP : I agree with you 100% on this. US is being very careful with how all money is spent at the moment and frankly needs a better revenue base (such as DF
119 commavia : I agree that Charlotte would - hypothetically - lose most of its international service under an AA merger scenario. But I don't agree that this would
120 EricR : Keep in mind that there is a ripple effect when you drop international flights because you also lose the need for feed on the domestic side to fill t
121 Cubsrule : In terms of flights, that's true, but I'm not sure it's true in terms of seats or ASMs. I don't see why an AA merger would make the Europe service th
122 CV880 : Is that from MIA's enplanement costs being over twice that of CLT?
123 Flighty : That goes for everything at CLT. CLT and MIA are totally different. MIA has great local clientele and poor hubbing. CLT somewhat the opposite. Miami
124 usflyer msp : The combined carrier would look more like US operationally and strategically than AA. The whole point of a merger would be to take US's lower cost st
125 AeroWesty : I was under the impression that the Saturday flying was marketed to a very narrow portion of the population, namely time-share owners in the Caribbea
126 EricR : Unfortunately, the primary driver of AA's high costs is labor. You cannot automatically apply US unionized pay scales to AA's unionized employees (es
127 slcdeltarumd11 : Its not just time share Owners alot of apartments and other places in ski/beach destinations are rented saturday to saturday. Its alot of people whic
128 Cubsrule : True, although given how domestic CLT is, I don't know how big an effect that is at CLT With both DFW and ORD being higher-cost than CLT and more con
129 usflyer msp : I agree it would not be automatic but it would have to be a prerequisite for any merger. Even if they just had to layoff all of the AA employees ala
130 AeroWesty : Enough empty seats to hold all the pax now flying via CLT? Or moving larger aircraft to MIA just for flying on one day per week to carry leisure traf
131 HPRamper : At worst, CLT would end up like STL. It's just not a good plan to completely give up a pretty decent market that you currently dominate, unless you a
132 EricR : DFW is a busy airport, but I do not really consider it congested. When I think of congested, I think of LGA, PHL, EWR, etc. DFW has a lot of space an
133 Cubsrule : And park those airplanes where? They can convert H 1 through 4 back to mainline, but beyond that, what do you suggest?
134 EricR : Excellent question. First a little financial background on both airlines - all of this is public information: US Market Cap: $1.3 billion AA Market C
135 BCEaglesCO757 : I can understand your point,but substitute American for the name Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA and it can very well happen. If those companies weren't some
136 EricR : I assume you mean G? H, K, L come to mind. They are not 100% utilized. And G5+ are not permanently fixed. What has been constructed, can be modified.
137 Cubsrule : No - the gates on H they've converted to MQ. The problem with making G a partial mainline concourse is that they pack the regional aircraft on there
138 EricR : I would not compare G at ORD to E at CLT. The G concourse used to be mainline whereas E was built specifically for regional. However, to answer your
139 Cubsrule : On which routes on which US carries more than 20 PDEW are ORD or DFW more than, say, 100 miles closer?
140 Cubsrule : What "mainline infrastructure" still exists on G?
141 etops1 : Something is up at US Airways. For years they have been known for being cheap and having bad consumer ratings, poor service, the king of fees, and hu
142 Post contains images CIDFlyer : I disagree with people saying here that CLT would be closed in favor of shifting traffic flows to DFW and ORD. US is the other big player in the south
143 EMB170 : G has been an Eagle-only facility since at least 1999. Even then, it was only the occasional F-100 that would park on said concourse. Before that, th
144 Post contains links EricR : Thank you. However, the larger point is that AA converted G from a mainline to regional facility, and just because it is a regional facility today do
145 adtall : Don't know about DTW, but C at ATL handles 737s, I think MD88-90s, and 319/320s every day now at certain DL gates, FL uses the south end as a fully m
146 Cubsrule : Why does CLT-LON or CLT-CDG no longer work because of a hypothetical US/AA merger? How many TATL routes from PMNW hubs has DL dropped? I'm not sure I
147 EricR : Why do you think they would remain? Based on O&D alone? I don't think so. CLT only has the number of international flights today because of the h
148 Flighty : Why would AA fly AA routes out of ORD and JFK, given that they are unprofitable.. you're just digging a hole for yourself. CLT is a proven winner. It
149 EricR : CLT is a proven winner under US because it serves a certain role in the US network. But CLT would not have the same role in a combined US/AA network.
150 usflyer msp : Thats because even though AA has 4.4 billion in cash, that cash is largely funded by their 11 billion in debt. To put things in perspective, AA takes
151 HPRamper : A lot of places in the country have high unemployment right now. I don't think that's something to look at as a long-term problem as the economy WILL
152 Post contains images SurfandSnow : Is anyone surprised? . That's not necessarily true. Everyone here seems to think that we will ultimately have 3 legacies - presumably UA, AA, and DL
153 wn700driver : For the 8millionth time.... A. Not Important. Fleet commonality matters only on a.net. In the real world, this concern has ZERO relevance. B. The bet
154 Cubsrule : No, of course not. But you haven't suggested that CLT would be a mere spoke, and if most of the domestic flying is still there, why do the TATL route
155 LAXtoATL : This is absolutely false! Something else that is public information is AA's huge debt service obligation, AA has stated publicly multiple times that
156 LAXdude1023 : What AA would offer US is a far superior hub base. AA's hubs are located in larger markets with more high yield o&d overall.
157 STT757 : Perhaps AA/US could offer to swap slots with B6. Swap US's LGA slots and Terminal to B6 in exchange for additional JFK slots, B6 being a primarily dom
158 HPRamper : Except only one is really controlled by AA. Fortress hubs are more beneficial to an airline in that it isn't a constant fare war on a majority of rou
159 LAXdude1023 : Make that two. DFW and MIA are both airport where AA controls the bulk of the traffic. Those would be huge in any merger/takeover scenario.
160 EricR : Please explain which part is false? There is nothing false about the information nor the conclusion. The following question was asked: AA has the cas
161 seatback : Not to mention worldwide brand recognition and for the most part a strong reputation.
162 LAXtoATL : False, false, false! They do not have the cash on hand to purchase US! The cash is already spoken for. Even if AA executives were dumb enough to spen
163 EricR : False false false! They DO have the cash on hand. Not sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend. If AA thought it was better to use the cash tow
164 LAXtoATL : AA has no flexibility as to what to do with that cash! Why is that so hard for you to understand? It is already committed, and it was raised specific
165 wn700driver : They really can't issue more stock at this time. Any much more than they already have and they're looking at being in junk bond status there. The onl
166 EricR : Because has AA has the flexibility and you are unable to see it. Airlines change strategy all the time. Just because AA allocates dollars today towar
167 HPRamper : I'm thinking along the lines of that AA would file for bankruptcy in preparation for a deal, in which case labor costs would be addressed. I just don
168 LAXtoATL : They do not have to spend it tomorrow, but they do have to spend it THIS YEAR! Here is what you are not grasping. AA does not have the means to raise
169 HPRamper : So it's like they are taking out huge payday loans...or paying off a credit card with another credit card at a higher interest rate.
170 Post contains images Caliboy78 : As a person whose being working for the airline industry for quite some time and has gone thru the disaster of the AW/US merger and lost his job in th
171 Flighty : AA is a money losing operation today. It's probably just legacy costs - which disappear on the other side of reorganization. Their network ought to w
172 HPRamper : I went through the merger too, and never saw anything I would call a disaster. The only annoyance was how long it took for the union issue to be reso
173 STT757 : There would be two reasons for AA to merge with US, and it has nothing to do with US's hubs. First bring AA's costs in line with US's costs, I don't
174 rampart : I thought AA was already part of the consolidation trend, among the first: they absorbed TWA. (As well as Reno and AIrCal previously). Unless US absor
175 SESGDL : Two problems with what you posted. First, many of AA's MD-80s are not paid for. Second, AA hasn't used the MD-80 from MIA in years. CLT's main functi
176 wn700driver : And considerably higher expense. Only DFW operates as inexpensively as PHX, and then only proportionally.
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