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HA Applies With DOT To Strip Delta Of HND Slot  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13118 times:

In an interesting filing, Hawaiian Air today filed a response to Delta’s 90-day Haneda route dormancy.

Hawaiian Air in its filling opposes United’s previous application for back-up authority to Haneda incase Delta fails to resume service in June, but additionally states Delta’s usage of the valuable and limited entry Haneda slots remains less than optimal, and that the department should reallocate at least one of the two slots to Hawaiian Air immediately.

In its pleadings, Hawaiian Air states that the natural disaster served as convenient cover for Delta to draw down services which were performing abysmally. Per HA statistics, the DTW flight in particular had a 38% load factor in March and both it and the LAX service faced grim forward bookings. Delta's decision in downsizing equipment reducing capacity by 160-seats concedes the unsustainability of its awarded routes and the HND flights were only booking a 1 for 2.5 ratio compared to DL’s existing NRT-DTW and LAX services.

In contrast Hawaiian Air states its Haneda services have maintained high load factors of over 80%, and the market remains strong and it is the only carrier committed to maintaining and expanding its Haneda services and as such deserves allocation of one of Delta’s two frequencies which should not lay dormant, or be allowed to be warehoused by Delta under less then optimal utilization.

OST-2010-0018


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOnlywaytofly From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13028 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In an interesting filing, Hawaiian Air today filed a response to Delta’s 90-day Haneda route dormancy.

Hawaiian Air in its filling opposes United’s previous application for back-up authority to Haneda incase Delta fails to resume service in June, but additionally states Delta’s usage of the valuable and limited entry Haneda slots remains less than optimal, and that the department should reallocate at least one of the two slots to Hawaiian Air immediately.

In its pleadings, Hawaiian Air states that the natural disaster served as convenient cover for Delta to draw down services which were performing abysmally. Per HA statistics, the DTW flight in particular had a 38% load factor in March and both it and the LAX service faced grim forward bookings. Delta's decision in downsizing equipment reducing capacity by 160-seats concedes the unsustainability of its awarded routes and the HND flights were only booking a 1 for 2.5 ratio compared to DL’s existing NRT-DTW and LAX services.

In contrast Hawaiian Air states its Haneda services have maintained high load factors of over 80%, and the market remains strong and it is the only carrier committed to maintaining and expanding its Haneda services and as such deserves allocation of one of Delta’s two frequencies which should not lay dormant, or be allowed to be warehoused by Delta under less then optimal utilization.

OST-2010-0018

That's very interesting indeed. Is Delta compelled to start re-start both frequescies now or risk losing one? Their planned hiadous was to be less than 90 days, correct?


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13027 times:

It will be interesting to see the DOT response to this one. I doubt it gets any traction, however if HA is genuinely interested in immediately getting their hands on more HND slots, I am sure DL would be willing to lease them at least one slot for a few years.

User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1828 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12916 times:

I'm going to sit back and grab the popcorn on an upcoming ruling. Very interesting. I think HA played their cards well here, so we'll have to see if the DOT agrees.

User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4429 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12905 times:

This is truly an interesting development, and I hope HA manages to get one of the slots. I am not sure about this being a "convenient cover" for Delta, but I have no doubt that HA would make greater use of the slot.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12470 times:

I personally don't think the DOT will forcefully strip the slots without warning, but I do see them issuing an ultimatum eventually. Does the DOT ever just take slots away without any warning?


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12144 times:

If the DL load numbers are correct, then they probably are losing money at HND.

A 2nd HA flight would benefit the carrier and Hawaii tourism. The 2nd flight could arrive earlier at HNL, and leave midday.

Would OGG's Runway 2 is too short for an HND non-stop by one of HA's 763s? AA has a non-stop to DFW ...

Now, will UA/CO jump into the fracas since they were not included in the initial HND slots?



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1644 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12038 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In an interesting filing, Hawaiian Air today filed a response to Delta’s 90-day Haneda route dormancy.

Hawaiian Air in its filling opposes United’s previous application for back-up authority to Haneda incase Delta fails to resume service in June, but additionally states Delta’s usage of the valuable and limited entry Haneda slots remains less than optimal, and that the department should reallocate at least one of the two slots to Hawaiian Air immediately.

In its pleadings, Hawaiian Air states that the natural disaster served as convenient cover for Delta to draw down services which were performing abysmally. Per HA statistics, the DTW flight in particular had a 38% load factor in March and both it and the LAX service faced grim forward bookings. Delta's decision in downsizing equipment reducing capacity by 160-seats concedes the unsustainability of its awarded routes and the HND flights were only booking a 1 for 2.5 ratio compared to DL’s existing NRT-DTW and LAX services.

In contrast Hawaiian Air states its Haneda services have maintained high load factors of over 80%, and the market remains strong and it is the only carrier committed to maintaining and expanding its Haneda services and as such deserves allocation of one of Delta’s two frequencies which should not lay dormant, or be allowed to be warehoused by Delta under less then optimal utilization.

Good for Hawaiian. While someone who is an intimate customer with Delta and has many friends there, I completely agree with Hawaiian's reasoning...it's exactly what I communicated when Delta withdrew service. Their loads from both LAX and DTW were atrocious and the earthquake and disaster provided a perfect storm to cut the losses temporarily.

That said, Delta does not want to lose access. It is willing to lose money on these routes for sometime simply due to the rare access it's been granted. In due time Delta's hope is that the slot times will be changed to more favorable day parts.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11900 times:

This is getting a bit ridiculous. While I understand the desire for access to the slots, and what's the worst they can be told, no? Well that leaves them where they already are, so why not ask? Surely, however, a little common sense will prevail. Delta is not likely to just let potentially very valuable assets be handed over to a competitor. They will, IMHO, operate these at loss until the market dynamics equilibrate (PS why doesn't Safari think that's a word!). Natural disaster and less-than-desirable-timing aside, I think a considerable portion of the Haneda difficulties are related to the fact that international travelers to and from Japan just aren't that familiar with Haneda yet. Hawaiian, obviously pulling from the Japanese market isn't going to experience these difficulties. Everybody else will for a while. After all it's been 40 years since European and Americans could travel directly to Haneda. Those trends don't change overnight, but they eventually will. Delta would be foolish to not at least give it a ride. United and Hawaiian are deluded if they actually expect anything to come of their petitions because Delta has a more than reasonable argument, especially with everybody else cutting frequency into Japan.

User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11851 times:
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It is called "use it or loose it."   

User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11688 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 6):
A 2nd HA flight would benefit the carrier and Hawaii tourism. The 2nd flight could arrive earlier at HNL, and leave midday.

Can't happen because of restrictions at HND, flights can only arrive between 10pm and 7am, and they can only depart between 12am and 7am (or something similar).

Flights would pretty much need to depart one after the other because trains stop running after midnight, making a post 10pm arrival at HND undesirable. Otherwise, perhaps a redeye departure from HNL and early arrival into Tokyo could work ?

Either way, I hope DL stars working on using their slots, cause it's obvious that if they don't use them they'll definitely lose them quickly.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11330 times:

While Hawaiian's arguments might be valiant, and the carrier could likely indeed successfully use the slots virtually overnight, I don’t see the DOT stripping the routes especially if Delta sticks to a 90-day or less dormancy.

However what the UA response and now HA filing will do it to put Delta on notice that it does not have room to play around here, and will cost the carrier money it probably does not want to lose.
Even with its proposed smaller 777s resumption in my eyes the routes will struggle for quite some time financially (atleast this year) both demand wise plus side effects of $110/bbl fuel not helping the matter at all either.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10924 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 6):
If the DL load numbers are correct, then they probably are losing money at HND.

Yeah no kidding. DL is loosing buckets of money on the HND runs before the disaster. Those loads are awful unless your a non-rev then its a guaranteed flight to Tokyo. I'm sure these flights took quite a few standby and non-rev customers happily to Tokyo guaranteed.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In its pleadings, Hawaiian Air states that the natural disaster served as convenient cover for Delta to draw down services which were performing abysmally.

I am sure delta was planning on asking for another extension past the maximum 90 days too. This now really puts them on notice that they have to resume service. I think at least one of the slots should be given away to HA or UA but i dont think they will if delta resumes before the 90days.. It will be interesting to see what delta does. Are they really gonna keep flying two almost empty 777s loosing tons of money a day for an unknown period to hold onto some slots. We shall find out how much DL wants the HND slots pretty soon.

Flying one 777 to say LAX would probably still loose money for a while into the future no less two 777s. Maybe delta will think about keeping just one of them to say LAX and cutting DTW? OR A very unlikely but crazy idea could they try to argue to give up a slot to HA or UA and get one reallocated to SEA their original first preference for service to HND and ditch LAX and DTW completely? DTW seems almost hopeless and LAX has competition. DL might do much better on SEA-HND to be honest and they can use AS to get feed from many cities for it with a single connection

[Edited 2011-04-07 20:04:29]

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5998 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10846 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 6):

I believe UA/CO would like to use a unused DL slot, if it comes to that, for SFO service.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10648 times:

While conceptually appealing, the dramatic fall off in Japanese beach traffic could make HA regret picking up a 2nd slot.

User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 6):
A 2nd HA flight would benefit the carrier and Hawaii tourism. The 2nd flight could arrive earlier at HNL, and leave midday.

HA's original HND application specified two flights that would've departed in 10 minutes of each other in both directions.

HA457: Dep HNL 1840 Arr HND 2200+1 (summer) / Dep HNL 1745 Arr HND 2200+1 (winter)
HA458: Dep HND 2345 Arr HNL 1220 (summer) / Dep HND 2345 Arr HNL 1145 (winter)

HA459: Dep HNL 1850 Arr HND 2210+1 (summer) / Dep HNL 1755 Arr HND 2210+1 (winter)
HA460: Dep HND 2355 Arr HNL 1230 (summer) / Dep HND 2355 Arr HNL 1155 (winter)

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 14):
While conceptually appealing, the dramatic fall off in Japanese beach traffic could make HA regret picking up a 2nd slot.

The numbers from Hawaii DBEDT are showing a roughly 20% drop relative to last year, but there's a good chance arrivals will recover when Golden Week rolls around at the end of this month.


User currently offlinerjm717 From Australia, joined May 2000, 86 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In an interesting filing, Hawaiian Air today filed a response to Delta’s 90-day Haneda route dormancy

Not doubting the information because it makes perfect sense to hedge against the recent petition from UA/CO, but can you provide the source please? Can't see any recent submission on regulations.gov for this docket from Hawaiian, nor any news to investors on the HA site.

Thanks,
R


User currently offlinekdeg00 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9791 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 8):
operate these at loss until the market dynamics equilibrate (PS why doesn't Safari think that's a word!)

Because the word you're looking for is actually "equalize." Or alternately, two words, "reach equilibrium."


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9421 times:

Quoting rjm717 (Reply 16):
Not doubting the information because it makes perfect sense to hedge against the recent petition from UA/CO, but can you provide the source please? Can't see any recent submission on regulations.gov for this docket from Hawaiian, nor any news to investors on the HA site.

Source is the airlines DOT filing. Give it a day or so and it should be up on regulations.gov. If the government does not shut down here due to the budget standoff I suspect you can see it my end business on Friday.
Otherwise PM me, and I'll get you a copy of the filing which I get direct copies of.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3596 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8587 times:
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This filling isn't surprising considering that when DL filed for a delay in their start date, HA's response basically said that they want the DOT to award them a second HNL-HND slot if DL further delays their HND service.

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

Ok, to make sure I understand this correctly.
DL has two slots into HND and are downsizing and reducing frequency for a period of time.
HA wants the DOT to take the unused slot from DL and provide it to HA to allow them to provide additional service from Hawaii.

If the above is correct we are talking about two US carriers, is there anything preventing DL using the HND slot from Hawaii directly competing with HA versus using it from the mainland?


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7937 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 21):

If the above is correct we are talking about two US carriers, is there anything preventing DL using the HND slot from Hawaii directly competing with HA versus using it from the mainland?

When the DOT awarded the HND slots, they were route specific. If DL wanted to use one of their HND slots to operate HND-HNL, they would have to petition the DOT to make that change. Per the terms of the award DL is well within their rights to suspend service for up to 90 days, but they do not have the right to switch service to another city without prior approval.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 7):
That said, Delta does not want to lose access.

I think what it is really about is denying UA/AA access to their partner's HND hub which serves to hurt DL's NRT hub. DL's main goal is to prevent UA/AA's access. They'd probably love to see HA get the slots, but the risk is that the DOT would award them to AA/UA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
While Hawaiian's arguments might be valiant, and the carrier could likely indeed successfully use the slots virtually overnight, I don’t see the DOT stripping the routes especially if Delta sticks to a 90-day or less dormancy.

The fact that AA suspended HND for a shorter period at least justifies DL's suspension. UA also cut NRT frequency in this week's OAG load. So, that alone provides cover for DL.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 14):
While conceptually appealing, the dramatic fall off in Japanese beach traffic could make HA regret picking up a 2nd slot.

At first I thought that, BUT if you can get out of Japan right now and get away from the mess there you are probably going to take the opportunity. From a financial perspective, I would assume insurance is going to cover this mess so it might even be a windfall.


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7128 posts, RR: 87
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 2):
I am sure DL would be willing to lease them at least one slot for a few years.

Why lease it when the DOT could pull it from DL and award to HA?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I personally don't think the DOT will forcefully strip the slots without warning

With the history of DL, why not?


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1630 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7643 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 15):
HA's original HND application specified two flights that would've departed in 10 minutes of each other in both directions.

HA457: Dep HNL 1840 Arr HND 2200+1 (summer) / Dep HNL 1745 Arr HND 2200+1 (winter)
HA458: Dep HND 2345 Arr HNL 1220 (summer) / Dep HND 2345 Arr HNL 1145 (winter)

HA459: Dep HNL 1850 Arr HND 2210+1 (summer) / Dep HNL 1755 Arr HND 2210+1 (winter)
HA460: Dep HND 2355 Arr HNL 1230 (summer) / Dep HND 2355 Arr HNL 1155 (winter)


I sill can't figure how a single flight with a bigger plane would not be better...


25 LAXtoATL : Because the DOT is not going to strip the routes from DL. And in the unlikely event that DL were to decide not to resume both routes after 90 days an
26 chopchop767 : Completely agree! I'm glad to see that Hawaiian didn't pull any punches and look forward to reading it. While I think DL's efforts are laudable in bu
27 usflyer msp : ...Hawaiian does not have any significantly bigger planes.
28 Stabilator : The DOT wont just take the DL slots away within the 90 day period. Probably because they do not have a larger aircraft. Awarding two slots to HA so t
29 LAXtoATL : DOT would either say yes or no.[Edited 2011-04-08 13:07:30]
30 mah4546 : No, DOT would require a new route selection process. It would not say yes, the route is locked into DTWHND.
31 SESGDL : This isn't DL's strategy. DL is a business and their duty is to make money to their shareholders. DL's requests to serve LAX-HND and DTW-HND were bot
32 dlflynhayn : Good luck with that!! That's weird just read an article in the Star Advertiser in Honolulu last week saying how there future Reservations have gone d
33 psa1011 : According to airlineroute.net, Delta is further postponing the HND restart to mid-June. Is DL that confident that the DOT will be cool with a new dela
34 LAXintl : In Delta's response they list June 2nd as resumption date for LAX flight, and June 16th for the DTW service. Both within the traditional 90-day dorman
35 timf : Delta announced these dates nearly 2 weeks ago. The flights have been zeroed out since then, but it took until this week's schedule update for it to
36 delta2ual : If HA gets another slot to Haneda, maybe DL could just codeshare with HA and even connect passengers between each other at HNL. It may be a win-win! M
37 bobnwa : What numbers do you have that show US is doing well with CLT-CLT that indicate a smart growth strategy.
38 jfk777 : Hawaian should consder itself lucky to have Haneda slots at all. It should not get too greedy with asking for all the "non-used" slots. HA is lucky th
39 enilria : Correct, there would be a new selection process. The question is whether there is a period of time where the slot would become grandfathered and DL c
40 jfk777 : That process can backfire on you badly, remember in 1991 when AA wanted ORD to NRT( the only route UA applied and got) but also applied for San Jose
41 Post contains links mariner : Delta has responded to Hawaiian, as here: http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thingsinthesky/ “Hawaiian admits that its loads on the Tokyo-Honolulu route
42 blueflyer : Why is it any more prudent than giving the authority to HA or UA for a daily service? They're both willing to do it (at least on paper) and HA has an
43 bobnwa : Do you think HA would perform well to HND from JFK,LAX and DTW with the current slot times for those cities held by DL and AA? Also don't you think t
44 ca2ohHP : US marketing has publicly stated that flight is now turning a profit.
45 bobnwa : Please produce that statement by US . It hasn't appeared in the Charlotte Observer at any time.
46 Post contains images seabosdca : If your marketing is so good that you can convince people to pay you to fly them CLT-CLT, you will have no problem growing.
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