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Why No B757-NG/NEO?  
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1299 posts, RR: 9
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

(Not sure if this is the right forum... if this belongs in Tech/Ops then feel free to move it moderators...)

Lots of airlines are looking for aircraft to replace their aging 757s. However none of the current available models get the entire job done, nor does anything in the near future it seems. The 739ER just doesn't carry as many people and can't go quite as far IIRC. The A321 has very limited range compared to the 757. Neither of these aircraft have the superior hot&high capabilities that the 757 has. The 757 really is an amazing workhorse.

So my question now is, why doesn't Boeing offer a NG or NEO for the 757? They wouldn't even have to improve much, besides fuel efficiency. The wing is high enough off the ground that I don't think many modifications would be necessary.

What do y'all think?  

-J.


Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
Not sure if this is the right forum...

Well the last 20 all belonged in CivAv for the most part.

Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
So my question now is, why doesn't Boeing offer a NG or NEO for the 757?

The short answer is that nobody really wanted 757s anymore and restarting production is not cheap. And then there is the matter of having to probably modify one of the new engines rather extensively to make it in a suitable thrust range for a 757. And Boeing has other, more profitable, ventures to devote resources to anyway.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5159 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
So my question now is, why doesn't Boeing offer a NG or NEO for the 757? They wouldn't even have to improve much, besides fuel efficiency. The wing is high enough off the ground that I don't think many modifications would be necessary.

Because the extension of the 737 line caused a capability overlap.. not in ALL areas, but enough to cause Boeing to realize that they'd would likely see fewer orders for new aircraft if they continued to produce/improve the 757.

The 757 is a victim of it's own success.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

The thing is that there is no engine available to power the 757 new gen
The new engines 0n the A380, B787 A345 are far to big for the 757 and the NB family of engines are to small, so basically no available engine fits the thrust bracket for the 757


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4486 times:
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The main reason Boeing killed the 757 is the 737-800 & -900 can do most of what the 757 did at much cheaper costs. The only thing 757 can do a 737-800 can NOT do is an Trans-Atlantic flight. Which is why Continental and AA use so many of those lovely 757 from New York and Bostin to CDG and LHR, now United is bringing the 757 to Dulles.

User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

This topic has been discussed over and over again since Boeing shut down the 757 line over 5 years ago.

And I enjoy every time it's brought up!

The 757 is my favorite airliner. I have worked on CO's 757 fleet almost exclusively since I transferred to MCO 10 years ago. Now that we have merged wit h UA I have 96 more to work on.

I understand why Boeing shut down the line. I wish they would have made an NG model so I could have worked on them until I retired. It probably would have been an amazing aircraft.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 3):



The PW2040 is still in production for the C-17... Maybe they could get the USAF to partially fund an improved version??

Just a thought...



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25332 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
Lots of airlines are looking for aircraft to replace their aging 757s.

What airlines have said they're looking for 757 replacements? Everyone says this but I can't recall any airlines that have actually made this statement.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4439 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
What airlines have said they're looking for 757 replacements? Everyone says this but I can't recall any airlines that have actually made this statement.



From the other thread: "US Aw Wants A321NEO"

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-have-europe-and-hawaii-range.html

"Kerr says US Airways is always looking for 757s, but "there's not a lot out there" as FedEx has "gobbled them up" for its freighter operations."



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
What airlines have said they're looking for 757 replacements? Everyone says this but I can't recall any airlines that have actually made this statement.

US has said it on multiple occasions, and DL mentioned the 757 as one of the types its upcoming large narrowbody order is intended to start replacing.

DL, though, doesn't need an exact 757 replacement right now. US does, badly. For the moment, they are the only airline that does... but UA, DL, and AA will all need one sometime around the end of the decade.

The catch is that, between all of them, they probably only need 150 true 757 replacements, at most.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4280 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
The only thing 757 can do a 737-800 can NOT do is an Trans-Atlantic flight.

The 737-800 can do some Transatlantic, particularly from New York but rising fuel costs are starting to dent narrobody long haul flights. I think most airlines will reach the point where if they cannot fill a 787 Transatlantic, than the route will not be worth operating. The 757 is lauded for its hot and high performance but the downside to that is poor fuel economy. There are a handful of situations that need the 757 but on a vast majority of routes it hurts because other aircraft are more fuel efficient.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
US has said it on multiple occasions, and DL mentioned the 757 as one of the types its upcoming large narrowbody order is intended to start replacing.

UA has also stated that it is looking for a 757 replacement when it issued the RFP on widebody replacements. It did not order a replacement but like most other airlines the 757 fleet is aging and the end is in sight.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30992 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4252 times:
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Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
Lots of airlines are looking for aircraft to replace their aging 757s. However none of the current available models get the entire job done, nor does anything in the near future it seems.

Which is because most 757 operators don't need the full-range of 757 capabilities, so they're content to take the 737-900ER and A321-200 to get the same general passenger capacity with ranges that, in general, meet their needs.

Rampant speculation (of which I have been a part of) is that at least one model of the "797" will be designed to offer 757-200 capacity with 757-200 range, but whether Boeing really will create a 200-seater with 4000nm of range at nominal payload (and 3000nm at 27t)...


User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4225 times:

Where did you get your facts from on poor fuel economy? CO was flying the 752 transatlantic when oil prices were topping out at over $130.00 a barrel and still making money on them.


Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently onlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 3):
The thing is that there is no engine available to power the 757 new gen
The new engines 0n the A380, B787 A345 are far to big for the 757 and the NB family of engines are to small, so basically no available engine fits the thrust bracket for the 757

Well, I wouldn't be so sure. The RR Trent-500 and -600 can both have their fans clipped and derated to the 40,000-45,000 thrust range. They could also dust off the GE CF-6-32 program for a new engine.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
DL, though, doesn't need an exact 757 replacement right now. US does, badly. For the moment, they are the only airline that does... but UA, DL, and AA will all need one sometime around the end of the decade.

The catch is that, between all of them, they probably only need 150 true 757 replacements, at most.

Sorry, I don't agree with that. I see a need for 500-600 B-757 size/capable airplanes, at a minimum. DL, AA, and UA all love their B-757s, and they do very well with them. As said, US really wants some B-757s. If they didn't need the true capabilities of the B-757, they would have ordered the A-321NEO by now. So, apparently even US, which is pretty much an Airbus airline, doesn't think the A-321NEO will have the range and capability of the B-757-200.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting MrSkyGuy (Reply 2):
Because the extension of the 737 line caused a capability overlap.. not in ALL areas, but enough to cause Boeing to realize that they'd would likely see fewer orders for new aircraft if they continued to produce/improve the 757..

More accurately, the 737-800 was better tuned to the market and an improved 757-200 wouldn't change that.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4209 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
I see a need for 500-600 B-757 size/capable airplanes, at a minimum.

Why?

The A321 NEO will be capable of West Coast-Hawaii service.

That leaves the transatlantic fleets, which number about 100 total, plus a few frames for particularly challenging destinations on this side of the pond.

Most of the 757s could easily be replaced by A321 NEO or a hypothetical 739 with somewhat better runway performance.


User currently offlinehawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4175 times:

I think with the rise of the B737-900ER and the A321 and now the A321NEO the B757 has been pushed into a smaller and smaller niche constrainted by it's weight classification, it's span, it's load ability, it's structural efficiency and its fuel efficiency.

User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4117 times:

The A321 and the 739ER, with 2 aux tanks, still lack the range of the 757 for transatlantic service.

For transcontinental the A321 and the 739ER are more efficient now. Can't argue with that. I have seen the numbers.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineskymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4081 times:

While most of us super "on the go" types just LOVE the 757's (except, perhaps the ex NW 5500's that DL operates) what I think that most of us will miss most is the L2 boarding door.

An extra door means weight and structural penalty, but what an convenience, espcially if riding up front!

As a side note, just wish DL's 763's had 'em (except fo the ex Gulf Airs ..)



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting MX757 (Reply 17):
The A321 and the 739ER, with 2 aux tanks, still lack the range of the 757 for transatlantic service.

This is probally a silly question... But will operators pay to keep a 757 usable past it's expected life limit? I know there will be many variables that could make this determination. But if the 787, which is more of 767 sized acft, isnt as popular as hoped, or Boeing/Airbus doesnt have a suitable replacement, can we expect to see the 757 stick aroun in a passenger role longer than expected? Like I said, there are a lot of "what-if's..." Gotta love aviation!



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting MX757 (Reply 12):
Where did you get your facts from on poor fuel economy? CO was flying the 752 transatlantic when oil prices were topping out at over $130.00 a barrel and still making money on them.

How do you know they were making money on any specific route? They were certainly losing money overall at that fuel price. It is much more difficult to suspend international flights than domestic flights, particularly when there is only one flight in the system per day so even if they were losing money, all they could do is keep operating and hope they can raise fares.

There are many variables in estimating fuel burn, fuel CSAM and other costs. You can fiddle with the numbers to push them either way but on many missions, the 757s extra power costs extra fuel.


User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3982 times:

PMCO invested a lot of money to equip our 752 fleet for transatlantic service. Full AVOD, lie flat seats, winglets, satcom, and HF data link. That and the fact that CO's 757's average age is around 10 years old I see the company keeping them around for at least another 8 to 10 years.

For the European markets that we use the 757 for, the 767 is not cost effective.

Will the 787 work? I have no idea. It's has to get into revenue service first.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

AADC10: From our yearly go forward meeting. (2009)

You're right we took a beating that year on almost all our routes. One of the few exceptions was the 757 transatlantic service.

My laptop is kaput and my I phone didn't come with a "cut and paste" app.  Yeah sure

[Edited 2011-04-08 16:49:41]


Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Thread starter):
So my question now is, why doesn't Boeing offer a NG or NEO for the 757?

1) The line no longer exists.
2) There is no business case for a 757NEO...not enough people want one to justify the cost.
3) The 757 mission is widely assumed to be covered by the eventual 737 replacement.
4) No engine exists and the market isn't big enough to pay for one.

Tom.


User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Well, I wouldn't be so sure. The RR Trent-500 and -600 can both have their fans clipped and derated to the 40,000-45,000 thrust range.

They are far to big for the 757, I mean each engine is around 1000 kg heavier than the RB211 which is already a heavy engine.


25 Post contains images astuteman : I think you're right Stitch. There's no doubt that a re-engined 757 would have phenomenal range capability, but does the world really need a 5 000Nm
26 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : According to Airbus, the A-321 already has west coast to Hawaii range, with 185 pax (3200 nm). But notice the drawing they have of the A-321 on that
27 astuteman : So, we slap similar technology new engines on both the A321 and the 757, and you think there's a chance that the relationship between the two will fu
28 seabosdca : In real life, to date, it's come up just a bit short. The NEO will have absolutely no trouble, though. Remember that there are special challenges fly
29 Viscount724 : The 707-138 (turbojet and turbofan) and turbojet -320 couldn't handle 5,000 nm sectors. Even the 707-138B could barely handle routes of 4,000 nm with
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