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DL Changes Equipment On BOS-LHR For Summer '11  
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17085 times:

The DL e-timetable is now showing BOS-LHR with the following schedule from June 1, 2011:

DL 270 Dep. 6:40p Arr. 6:25a +1 Eqp. 764
DL 144 Dep. 10:50p Arr. 10:35a +1 Eqp. 752

The route previously was scheduled to be operated by 2x 767-300ERs (code 767 in the DL timetable). In concordance with this change, DL 30 JFK-SVO has been downgauged from a 764 to a 767 and DL 206 JFK-ZRH has been upgauged from a 752 to a 767. Interesting move, as I don't believe the 752s have fully-flat beds...


SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17049 times:

The loads have been beyond horrendous. There will still be lie flat on coach...everybody can have their own row.

I'm still very surprised that Delta is using a 752, though. I would think it'd suck it up for the sake of establishing market presence.



a.
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16784 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
The loads have been beyond horrendous.

This doesn't sound like a move that was because of poor bookings. Afterall one flight was upguaged so the net reduction in seats is minimal. My guess is this move was done because of aircraft availability / utilization or the bookings were uneven and the first flight was showing a lot more demand than the second flight. If your information on the loads is correct then it would seem the former rather than the latter would be driving this decision. Either way, I too am surprised to see the 752 flying into LHR. I could understand if they had left the 763 and downguaged one flight to a 752, but to upguage one flight and downguage the other at the same time seems like this is a temporary solution to some fleet issues they are having at the moment.


User currently offlinejetBlueE90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16683 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):


The route previously was scheduled to be operated by 2x 767-300ERs (code 767 in the DL timetable). In concordance with this change, DL 30 JFK-SVO has been downgauged from a 764 to a 767 and DL 206 JFK-ZRH has been upgauged from a 752 to a 767. Interesting move, as I don't believe the 752s have fully-flat beds...

JFK-SVO and I believe ZRH will be 76Ts.



Please stop talking.
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 16639 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 2):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
The loads have been beyond horrendous.

This doesn't sound like a move that was because of poor bookings. Afterall one flight was upguaged so the net reduction in seats is minimal. My guess is this move was done because of aircraft availability / utilization or the bookings were uneven and the first flight was showing a lot more demand than the second flight. If your information on the loads is correct then it would seem the former rather than the latter would be driving this decision. Either way, I too am surprised to see the 752 flying into LHR. I could understand if they had left the 763 and downguaged one flight to a 752, but to upguage one flight and downguage the other at the same time seems like this is a temporary solution to some fleet issues they are having at the moment.

It's still early and not peak season, but the second flight, the one downgauged, is often going out with less than 60.

And what fleet issues? Its a one-for-one aircraft swap with JFKZRH.



a.
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1798 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 16454 times:

When will their booking system be updated? Flights still showing as Boeing 767-400 currently on both BOS-LHR flights

User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 16438 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 4):
And what fleet issues? Its a one-for-one aircraft swap with JFKZRH.

The OP said that the two flights were scheduled both with 767-300ERs, the first flight was upguaged to 764 and the second flight downguaged to a 752, that would make this more than a simple one-for-one aircraft swap.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4880 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 16257 times:
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Originally, the 2x daily BOS-LHR were scheduled to switch from 764ERs to 76Ts starting June 15-16.

2 76Ts = 414 seats: 70 Business + 344 Y seats

1 76D (245 seats) + 1 75E (170 seats) = 415 seats: 54 Business + 361 Y seats


User currently offlinerafflesking From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 16014 times:

Interesting...DL's whole pitch about LHR was lie-flat biz elite!

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 16011 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 7):
Originally, the 2x daily BOS-LHR were scheduled to switch from 764ERs to 76Ts starting June 15-16.

2 76Ts = 414 seats: 70 Business + 344 Y seats

1 76D (245 seats) + 1 75E (170 seats) = 415 seats: 54 Business + 361 Y seats

So, total seat numbers-wise this is pretty much a none-change. Looks pretty much like the earlier flight is doing somewhat okay whereas the later flight is suffering from lower loads overall and especially up front. Not really surprising given the departure time and especially the arrival time at LHR. With no real connections being available on Skyteam at LHR, most of the traffic is bound to be O&D, likely plenty of business traffic, and obviously they'd want to get the most out of the day, so they are bound to take the earlier flight.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 15829 times:

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 8):
Interesting...DL's whole pitch about LHR was lie-flat biz elite!
DL Metal Change - DL Reservations Proactive

"DL Rep: We thought we'd be able to reconfigure a lot more of our aircraft with lie-flat, but it's moving a lot slower than originally planned."



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4880 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 15806 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
We thought we'd be able to reconfigure a lot more of our aircraft with lie-flat, but it's moving a lot slower than originally planned

The 76Ds will be done soon, but the first 76T ran into trouble (supplier issues from what I hear) - it has been in for the mod back in October/November last year....ship 1608 I believe...


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1071 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15628 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
Looks pretty much like the earlier flight is doing somewhat okay whereas the later flight is suffering from lower loads overall and especially up front. Not really surprising given the departure time and especially the arrival time at LHR. With no real connections being available on Skyteam at LHR, most of the traffic is bound to be O&D, likely plenty of business traffic, and obviously they'd want to get the most out of the day, so they are bound to take the earlier flight.

Sounds exactly right to me. Later eastbound red-eye flights are usually less popular with business travelers because of the later arrival/lost business time, but often are popular with leisure economy travelers because they have less time to wait until hotel check-in etc. As you said, the new schedule better fits capacity in each cabin with demand, while maintaing overall capacity.

I actually think DL would have been better with an evening departure for the second westbound flight, rather than the early afternoon flight they opted for. It is quite often the case that business people want to do a day trip to London (arrive around 07:00, depart around 18:00) and that's now not possible with the current schedule. For many years AA had only two LHR-BOS flights, but they were timed in this way and and a lot of business people did trips like that.

DL now has both LHR-BOS flights departing within 3 hours of each other so they limit their customers schedule options somewhat, and don't really give them the full benefit of the frequency they offer. The flip side is that they do save on ground time at LHR.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineskymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 523 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15588 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
The route previously was scheduled to be operated by 2x 767-300ERs (code 767 in the DL timetable).



Not sure where the "763ER" is coming from ...

I am on DL 144 14 May in J and it shows a 764 with the Thompson lie-flats!.

Looking at the available seat map shows "J" almost full and "Y" about 60%.

Return on 21 May on DL 271 shows "J" and "Y" both at about 60% (from the seat selection charts). This is also a 764 with lie flats.



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 14429 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
The loads have been beyond horrendous

Seat maps for the next few days BOS-LHR look 100% full....


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1693 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 14350 times:
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Quoting mah4546 (Reply 4):
It's still early and not peak season, but the second flight, the one downgauged, is often going out with less than 60.

And what fleet issues? Its a one-for-one aircraft swap with JFKZRH.

Correct. The 10:30pm BOS departure to LHR is a disaster! The earlier flight isn't anything to write home about either. To abruptly downgrade to a 757 when you've spent months marketing "lie flat" seats clearly indicates how horrendous the route is doing. I'm anticipating BOS-LHR eventually going down to once daily. One of the worst new route launches for DL in recent memory...


User currently offlineZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13864 times:

They must have short memories in Delta. Their last effort on Boston-London, which was using the former Pan Am A310s (admittedly on Boston-Gatwick) back in the mid 1990s was a disaster of monumental proportions - it used to depart Gatwick on a good day with 50 passengers.

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13641 times:

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 5):
When will their booking system be updated? Flights still showing as Boeing 767-400 currently on both BOS-LHR flights

Probably this weekend. The e-timetable generally tends to reflect changes before delta.com does.

Quoting skymiler (Reply 13):
Not sure where the "763ER" is coming from ...

I am on DL 144 14 May in J and it shows a 764 with the Thompson lie-flats!.

Check the date in the first line of the original post.  
Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
The DL e-timetable is now showing BOS-LHR with the following schedule from June 1, 2011:



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13555 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 14):

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
The loads have been beyond horrendous

Seat maps for the next few days BOS-LHR look 100% full....


Seats maps are zero indicator of loads. The actual loads are prettybpoor, but with Easter week coming up, I'm sure they are better over the next two weeks.



a.
User currently offlinekeagkid101 From Portugal, joined Mar 2010, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13521 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 15):
The 10:30pm BOS departure to LHR is a disaster!

Seat maps for that flight for the next few days look about 85-90% full. Not sure what you are basing your loads on.


User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13393 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
Seats maps are zero indicator of loads.

Agreed, but FWIW, actual loads for the next 5 days do look full or overbooked, especially on the early flight.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13358 times:

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 19):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 15):
The 10:30pm BOS departure to LHR is a disaster!

Seat maps for that flight for the next few days look about 85-90% full. Not sure what you are basing your loads on.


Actual loads, not seat maps. One flight went out with less than 30 in each cabin, and forward bookings aren't great, either.



a.
User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13300 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
Seats maps are zero indicator of loads.

That's an understatement. Airline website seatmaps are utterly useless and absolutely not indicitive of actual loads on any given flight.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4880 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13287 times:
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Both BOS-LHR flights are very full the next few days:


15 Apr:
DL270 J3 D0 S0 I0 Y0 B0 M0 H0 Q0 K0 L0 U0 T0 E0
DL144 J0 D0 S0 I0 Y4 B0 M0 H0 Q0 K0 L0 U0 T0 E0

16Apr:
DL270 J0 D0 S0 I0 Y3 B2 M0 H0 Q0 K0 L0 U0 T0 E0
DL144 J6 D6 S5 I4 Y0 B0 M0 H0 Q0 K0 L0 U0 T0 E0

17Apr:
DL270 J9 D9 S9 I8 Y9 B9 M9 H9 Q9 K7 L6 U4 T2 E0
DL144 J3 D3 S2 I0 Y7 B6 M5 H3 Q3 K3 L2 U2 T1 E1


User currently offlinefanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12933 times:

I love how everyone likes to say that seat maps aren't an indicator at all, when in fact, it actually is a pretty good indicator... Especially in the front cabin. DL doesn't hold any F or J seats back for last minute assignment at the gate nor do they purposely overbook F or J, so if indeed there are three open seats in F, DL usually shows J3. As far as coach, that's another animal, as roughly 20% or so seats are probably held back for assignment (depending on the flight), So if it looks 60% full, it's probably closer to 50% full. If you log in as an elite, you can see more open seats, but still, if there are no seats for selection, it's probably pretty close to full.

Now looking at Expert Flyer at what DL is willing to sell in each cabin is a much better indicator, similar to what panamair has shown. I've learned this when doing Same Day Confirms on DL the past 4 years...

My point is, don't totally discount the seat map.



"FLY DELTA JETS"
25 Post contains images AAairplane : I'm flying from BOS to LHR on June 6. I believe that it's the later flight (which would have an equipment change). I'm disappointed about the change a
26 mah4546 : It will list as a 752 over the weekend.
27 SkyPriorityDTW : The problem with the seat maps is the fact that often times seats are shown as occupied even though they are actually blocked-off and not occupied. Fo
28 Post contains images AAairplane : Thanks for the info. Too bad I won't get to fly in a 764. AA
29 airbazar : It's April vacation week here and Easter vacation in Europe. It ought to have good loads.
30 miaintl : DL's MIA-LHR is probably not doing well either. I would not be surprised if that flight gets downgraded. If BOS (which is a far larger market to Londo
31 mah4546 : It is doing better than Boston. And, just FYI, Miami-London and Boston-London are virtually identical sized local markets, ~650 PDEW each. MIALHR was
32 Blueman87 : is this a just a Summer Flight[Edited 2011-04-14 17:58:21]
33 miaintl : Then why is Miami working and Boston not? Is it the time because i know that DL leaves MIA at around 5 which is a lot better than 10:30 at Boston. If
34 mah4546 : Neither is easy, but Miami is a more fragmented market and is easier to lure passengers on low fares due to bulk. Plus Miami connects to Orlando, whi
35 yellowtail : so how is MIA LHR doing?
36 Post contains images enilria : Well, then the poor bookings are a coincidence. While LHR-BOS is high yield, but empty. MIA-LHR is full, but low yield. Both are probably equally dis
37 mah4546 : Average MIALHR fare is ~15% higher than the average BOSLHR fare between JAN10 and DEC10. Nothing low yield about this market, which has incredibly st
38 SESGDL : How do you have access to forward bookings? Jeremy
39 mah4546 : Everybody can look at forward bookings by looking at bucket fare availability via subscription services like Expert Flyer, among other ways. It's not
40 DLYUL : I've searched all over the net, and I've seen nothing at all regarding a downgrading of equipment on the late DL BOS-LHR flight. It woudn't make sense
41 mah4546 : It will be loaded on Saturday. Delta actually started calling passengers book on the flight in J and is offering free schedule change due to the lack
42 apodino : Actually the last BOS-LON effort was BOS-LGW with a 763 in 2001 right before 9-11 hit. I am not sure how the route did, but it went bye bye after 9-1
43 mah4546 : AA added a round-trip to 3x daily, but capacity is pretty much flat through smaller planes.
44 SESGDL : It's already loaded in their electronic timetable. Secondly, that statement about 757s on BOS-LHR killing premium flier's demand is totally false, at
45 panamair : Yes, JFK-ZRH is a seasonal summer flight that started summer 2009. This year, it will restart June 1, and is supposed to run until end of October. Ho
46 bhmdiversion : Might be a little late but... from DLTerm: BOSLHR 14JUN-15JUN TUESDAY 1200N *ALT ET/GMT 1 1 270 J9 D9 S8 I2 Y9 B9 M9 H9 BOSLHR 640P 625A#1 764 DD0 Q9
47 DLYUL : DL has a history of swapping its 757/767's on certain Domestic and TATL routes. Sometimes on a nearly daily basis. JFK-MAN flips back and forth betwee
48 commavia : None of this is all that surprising. I suspect that for all the typical characteristic Delta hoopla, these two routes - if they survive - will ultimat
49 anstar : That's an understatement. Airline website seatmaps are utterly useless and absolutely not indicitive of actual loads on any given flight.[/quote] Some
50 peanuts : It's funny DL somehow is not allowed any slack on a.net. It's a good thing not much attention can be paid to any of our opinions since DL would otherw
51 commavia : No question about it. Virgin is going to be a game changer for Star or SkyTeam - whichever gets it. Virgin will give either alliance instant scale at
52 runway23 : Regardless, when you are filling your business class cabin with 1400 USD return fares, your yield is down the toilet all round. At the price Delta is
53 LAXtoATL : What is the price?
54 DAL767400ER : Something that I wonder about the slots, did Delta actually have a choice with regards to the times at LHR, or were the slots awarded in the proceedin
55 commavia : Highly, highly proprietary - that is what it is. If I remember correctly, AA-BA was actually allowed to select which slots they leased to Delta, as l
56 TOMMY767 : BOS-LHR isn't as savvy as a route as say NYC-LHR. AA went from 777s on the route to 763s and now 757s. UA used to fly BOS-LHR with the 763 for two ye
57 Post contains images readytotaxi : So if I want a "lay flat bed" @ econemy prices book the late night BOS-LHR, sounds like a cracking deal.
58 LAXtoATL : So when runway23 said... he had no clue what he was talking about?
59 commavia : Well, not knowing him personally, and thus not knowing if he indeed does somehow have inside information, I suspect that what he was alluding to is t
60 Post contains links LAXtoATL : As someone recently provided the exact wording of the rulings, the U.S. side stated "commercially viable" wording but the EC was more vague and sugge
61 DFWEagle : The oneworld partners were entitled to choose which specific slots they released, but they had to be within 60 minutes of the times requested by the
62 shamrock604 : Different situation entirely - AMS is uncontested out of BOS and the AMS end has DL's alliance partner and is really a DL hub in its own right.
63 FutureUScapt : Are those numbers stage length adjusted? Because MIALHR is also 33% longer than BOSLHR, which would make MIA lower yielding relative to BOS. This sho
64 airbazar : One thing that's been overlooked in this entire discussion is that although both MIA and BOS are equivalent markets and both are new routes for DL, BO
65 FlyASAGuy2005 : MIA is actually doing much better than Boston. I've been tracking both on a daily basis since they started and MIA is ahead by far IMHO. I'd suspect
66 bestwestern : DL also did BOS LGW in 2001, and it was great for non-revving!
67 lhr380 : You don't see BA downgrading service or buying up new smaller aircraft to op Trans Atlantic or shutting down service to US airports. Yes, there are t
68 bestwestern : What about BA Open Skies from paris?
69 luckyone : No you don't. What you see (saw?) them doing was shutting down entire long haul operations from all but one UK airport in order to fill those larger
70 SESGDL : Considering that BA doesn't have 757s anymore, I don't see how they could downguage any further than a 767. Agreed. Jeremy
71 lhr380 : Yes, so they don't have to have planes and staff based all over the UK, and can have them based all in one point from where the aircraft will be used
72 AAExecPlat : You mean the one in all J layout?
73 lhr380 : J and W on those flights.
74 SESGDL : If that were the case I think you'd see every airline doing the same. BA doesn't do GLA or MAN or BHX to the US anymore because it didn't work out fo
75 jetBlueE90 : But that is the point. BA only has one hub to the US with mostly 1x daily flights. Delta has 2 very large hubs to Europe plus a pretty large p2p netw
76 mayor : And DL also did MIA-LGW in the 90s, with A310s.
77 lhr380 : Where are the flights into these cities coming from? How many services a day are there? What type of aircraft operate these routes? Using your exampl
78 panamair : DL also operates the 763ER on MAN-ATL.
79 lhr380 : Thank you, I did not see it on the MAN page, but looked again and can. MAN ------ DL 767
80 luckyone : Yes, that's true. What's the problem? Many of them still operate from more than one hub than BA.
81 lhr380 : And how Big is the United States compared to the United Kingdom? Quick look shows that the whole of the UK could fit into the US about 50 times, the
82 Post contains images luckyone : Yes, which is why you see the smaller planes operating from more than one city. Again, I'm asking you what's the problem with sending 757's into the
83 lhr380 : You never asked what my problem was with smaller aircraft. Im going on the basis of the thread starter that talks about the downgrade of the plane, a
84 jfk777 : DL has an embarrassment of riches in the form of LHR slots. ITs ambitious wanting double daily 764's. What is wrong with one 764 daily from BOS to LHR
85 david_itl : There's not really a great deal of difference in terms of CO 757 and 762s or AA 763s or 757s for passenger numbers. That CO converted a 777 route int
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