MAC_Veteran From Taiwan, joined Jun 1999, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (15 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1237 times:
Seeing the A318 pick up -so many- orders since it's launch in April is astonishing.
Off the side, Expect to hear of an Air China order for the A318 in coming days as well. What's poignant about this is, the 717 is on tour here in Asia, Taiwan last Saturday and I believe HKG the same day as well.
B777 From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (15 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1227 times:
Frankly, I am not surprise by AW decision to order the A318. They want to have aircraft that have in common with A320 as a cost reduction measure. Does anyone know if CFMI is going to design an engine for the A318??
Goa340 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
First I would like to say that I feel very sorry for the Boeing fans. Even tough objectivity is a virtue, for some reason there are still people insisting that the 30 year old B737 is a better airplane than the A32X. By the way, I like the A340 a lot but do not defend that it is superior to the B777. If it wasnt for etops and communality, the B777 certainly would be a better choice over the A340. Having said that, these qualities of the A340 are important for airlines to make them forget, in some cases, about the ultra comfy 777. On the other hand the A330 is I think superior to the old B767...anyway what I want to emphasize is objectivity...
By the way will AW get the A321IGW to replace the 757s?
MAC_Veteran From Taiwan, joined Jun 1999, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
..By the way will AW get the A321IGW to replace the 757s?
There are 50 A32X options in this order which could very well be firmed up into A321 HGW models. I've heard a lot of speculation they indeed want this airplane, but it depends a lot on the engine manufacturer.
AW has been pushing for a higher thrust version of the V2500 dubbed the "-7". It appears this is in the direction of happening from my read of the news at their website. http://www.v2500.com
This aircraft purchase covers 77 aircraft total, a -BIG- win for AI. I also believe this makes things increasingly difficult for the 717/MD-95. The pending AeroMexico/Mexicana (CINTRA) order is probably the one that will either save the 717/MD-95 or bust it.
Speculating on that one, I see it quite possibly going for AI at the rate things are going. These guys are on a roll with the sales effort and I dont see a let up any time soon, nonetheless there could be surprises. Nothing is a foregone conclusion anymore in this business. And come Monday with the EL AL announcement, shall see what happens there.
A truly remarkable sales effort going on.
Here is the text of the press release of this order and URL for it:
America West Announces Airbus Order; Airline to Add
A318 to Fleet
PHOENIX, Oct. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- America West Holdings Corporation (NYSE: AWA - news) announced today a definitive agreement between its wholly owned subsidiary, America West Airlines, Inc. and Airbus Industrie, pursuant to which the Airline placed firm orders for 15 Airbus A318-100 aircraft and 12 Airbus A320-200 aircraft. Under the arrangements announced today, the Airline
will also receive options and purchase rights to purchase 50 ``A320 family'' aircraft (A318s, A319s, A320s or A321s). Deliveries for the firm order A320 aircraft will begin in August 2000 and continue through 2004. The firm order A318s are scheduled to be delivered in 2003 and 2004.
``This very competitively priced order supports our strategic plan to grow the Airline and maintain our industry leading cost structure,''
said W. A. Franke, America West Holdings chairman, president and chief executive officer. ``We are excited about the addition of the
A318 which will permit the Airline to replace our 737-200 aircraft early in the next decade and continue our strategy of more frequent
service to key business markets.''
``America West is already one of North America's top customers for Airbus Industrie, and we are honored that it will also be one of the
first U.S. customers for the A318,'' said Noel Forgeard, chief executive officer, Airbus Industrie.
The A318 is the newest and smallest member of the A320 family. Though it will feature a shorter fuselage than the A319, the A318
shares the same cockpit, avionics, fly-by-wire flight management systems and cabin width as the other members of the A320 family and
has 2,000 miles of ``hot and high'' range. Airbus Industrie has announced orders for the new model from TransWorld Airlines, Air
France, ILFC and, most recently, America West's marketing partner British Airways. America West expects to configure the A318
with 110 seats, 12 in first class and 98 in the main cabin.
America West's A318s will be powered by a new engine, the PW6000, being designed by the Pratt & Whitney division of United
Technologies Corp. specifically for the new aircraft. The new A320 orders will be equipped with IAE V2500-A5 engines manufactured
by IAE International Aero Engines AG. The Airline's existing A319s and A320s are also powered by the IAE V2500.
``The commonality of the A318 with our existing Airbus fleet ensures that the new aircraft can be cost effectively operated and
maintained by the Airline's Airbus pilots and mechanics,'' said Gilbert D. Mook, the Airline's executive vice president and chief
The order includes options to purchase an additional 25 A320 family type aircraft beginning 2004 and ending in 2006 and 25 purchase
rights for A320 family aircraft for delivery beginning in 2007 and ending in 2008. Subject to certain limitations, the arrangements provide
that the specific model to be purchased (A318, A319, A320 or A321) will be selected at the time the option or purchase right is
exercised allowing America West significant flexibility in matching aircraft type to mission and demand. The purchase rights, a new
concept being offered to Airbus customers, provide America West with fixed prices for the subject aircraft but postpone the
determination of the aircraft model, delivery date and the Airline's commitment until a later date.
America West has flown the A320 since 1991 and the Airline introduced the A319 in late 1998. America West currently operates a
fleet of 37 A320 and eight A319 aircraft with another three A320s and 14 A319s on firm order before today's announcement. The
unexercised options included in the Airbus order announced by America West in 1997 were relinquished as part of the new order.
America West Holdings Corporation is an aviation and travel services company with 1998 sales of $2.0 billion. Its wholly owned
subsidiary, America West Airlines, is the nation's ninth largest carrier serving more than 90 destinations in the U.S., Canada and
This press release, as well as releases issued in the past year by America West Holdings and its affiliates, can be accessed on the
America West Internet site at www.americawest.com.
Mirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1190 times:
This may be just a coincidence but it seems both Frontier and AWA were waiting for BAW to make a decision on the A318 to follow the same move.
I wonder if there will be other orders for the A318 in the next weeks.
CX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4488 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1192 times:
This isn't a serious marketing effort it is called dumping a product. Lets not confuse superiority (737) to cheap, litterally being given away A32Xs. Also can we please keep our responses under 200 words?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
Ducker From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1179 times:
GATX Flightlease has ordered CFM power for the A318's it ordered. I think that these planes are destined for Swissair which operates CFM-56-5 on its 319's and 320's. Airlines like to have a choice af engines, so as to negotiate lower prices for the engines, like they do for the airframes. I think that P&W is getting into "power by the hour" or other maintenance service contracts, which GE has been doing for awhile with Southwest. For example, BA is having P&W do the maintence for its PW6124's, and P&W is now marketing service contracts, perhaps to lower the costs for airlines using a new engine, not common to the rest of their fleet.
GoA340 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1179 times:
sure price dumping....basically what you are saying is that the B737 is such a superior product and the only reason carriers are opting for the A32X is because they get better deals from Airbus...sure....if Airbus did not give any discounts you are saying that there would be basically no A32X operating in the world because the B737 is so much better....wake up and smell the morning coffee, seriously.
KL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1172 times:
After a long time being away ive come back. I just came back from a 3 month trip to Holland.
Anyways will IAE ever produce an engine for the A318?
Since they are really good in making engines for the A32X fleet, and rumors of IAE of making an engine for the A321IGW, it would be nice to see it build engines for the A318. Im kinda surprised that AW did not opt or even ask IAE about an engine. what do you guys think?
NYC Int'l From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1184 times:
Sunday when I was at the IAT at JFK I met an ATA Maintenance Supervisor based at DET who said that ATA was looking to order 40 planes in the near future and he said probably 737s. Stupidly, I didn't think to ask what type(s) or if they would be immediatly replacing their 727s or expanding capacity when they first come into the fleet. Yea, Yea I know Bonehead right!
Navion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1165 times:
This is simple. AW ordered 77 more Airbus because they already fly a bunch of A320's and A319's. I disagree with MAC_Veteran that this is a big win. A big win would be if Boeing sold their jets at such a discount they offset the existing Airbus fleet. That is not realistic and as I said in another post, with Boeing being financially responsible, they don't seem to be winning as many of the competitions. I firmly believe once Airbus becomes a viable entity free of public funding and answering to DASA, they will be less agressive pricewise. It was a smart move on AW's part to buy more Airbus's. This truly is a case of one competitor fighting with one hand tied behind his back. AW makes sense to me. The Frontier sale does not. It is possible Airbus is making a last ditch sales dump before it becomes private in the next few years so it has as large a customer base as possible. It's fascinating how this competition ebbs and flows.
Dannyboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1154 times:
Sure all the commonality issues with respect to the Airbus choice makes sense but CX747 it is a well known fact that Airbus gives extremely attractive financing deals (yes it could be said thay'd give them away for next to nothing) to get the airlines to go their way. They did it with AC. Just watch what happens when AC has to start making some VERY LARGE payments to Airbus in the near future. Anyone who lives in Canada knows about the BRICK funiture and appliance stores with their don't pay till 2001 deals, kinda like that.
Anyways the 737NG has a far superior ride, smoother, higher, ETOPS which the A320 family doesn't have. It's a much more flexible aircraft. I have been on both and Boeing wins hands down.
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1160 times:
Come on everyone! Please don't make this into another "Boeing vs Airbus" debate (fight). Both aircraft, the A32X and the 737NG, are very excellent planes in their own way.
Also--the NG cannot be compared to its now out of production "classic" (-200, -300, -400, -500) siblings, as it is a much better deriviative for it has a totally new interior, new flight deck, new wings, new tail, new systems, new engines, etc. In additon, where did the "30 year old 737" comment come from? I wasn't aware that there were any 30 year-old 737's still flying!
24291 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1154 times:
Greetings everybody. I'm glad to see Airliners.net back up and running in time for the news! It seems like the interesting stuff always happens on Thursdays.
First off, I'd like to say that today's news is not a surprise for anyone who follows America West. Unlike Frontier, America West has been an Airbus operator for over eight years and they operate one of the largest A320 family fleets in the world with over 43 aircraft. Also, it has been reported for about a month that an order was in the works. I'd have to agree with Navion that this can't really be called a loss for Boeing--this battle was lost long ago!
BTW, America West operates 17 737-200s and a single 737-100. Two of these early-generation jets are 30 years old, although the rest are from '80-'82.
A couple of interesting points regarding this order:
This will be a new aircraft for the company, and more significantly, a new engine. I personally don't see the advantage of having an aircraft with 10 fewer seats than an A319 which is already in the fleet, particularly when it also has different engines. (On a side note, I bet the PW6Ks will actually be more reliable than the IAE). Secondly, it seems to be a gamble to commit to a plane that hasn't been built yet. Also, the old -200s seat around 124 which to me makes the A319 a better replacement. (They pack those -200s to the gills, even on short hops). If they put 12 first class seats in it as they did with the A319, that would be a plus. Maybe they won't be used strictly as a -200 replacement; the "Microbus" would be best utilized to open up thin, mid-ranged markets, especially out of Columbus. Finally, I foresee problems with the wingspan on this airplane. Despite the new gates in Phoenix, with 27-77 new Airbuses, they will run out of space quickly. THIS WILL FORCE THEM TO EXPAND INTO NEW MARKETS. That would be a plus, but I still feel this aircraft is a heavy jelly bean, and I question their reasons for ordering it instead of more A319s.
With this order, comes the first official word from the company that they are going to get rid of the -200s. It's a trusty little airplane, and will be the end of an era, but we'll see them in the fleet through 2003 at least, I'm certain. I truly believe that the average passenger will prefer the A318 over the -200, primarily due to entertainment systems and quieter engines. Please note, however, that the airline has given no indication that they are getting rid of their 737-300s! These aircraft serve an important niche and will remain in the fleet for years to come. They have 47 -300s and growing through used acquisitions.
No A321s were ordered
Not a huge surprise here. America West obviously is unimpressed with the performance of this aircraft, even the IGW version. They avoided it with the previous order also. I think Mac_Vet is on the money with the -A7 rumor. Until Airbus can work out performance issues, why would AWA opt for A321s over the 13 kick-ass 757s already in the fleet? This airplane is simply unmatched, and I wonder why the company is sitting around while National is already up to 10 757s in Las Vegas! Probably because they're so damned expensive!
Anyway, I enjoy watching AWA; thanks for letting me give my $2.50--less than 600 words!!!
C-GAGN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1143 times:
Good. More business for the Air Canada hanger here in YWG which does overhauls on AMW's 320s. They send their 737-300s here too, but they're a much less interesting aircraft in my opinion. And regardless of what the airliner directories say, that A320 is a more comfortable aircraft than the 737NG. Passengers prefer a more comfortable aircraft. My family owns a travel agency, so I have first hand experiance. People prefer to fly on the bus!
Delta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1141 times:
I guess I'm throwing my hat into the fray.
This is generally what I hear from pilots that actually fly the Airbus and the Boeing.
Generally, most 737 pilots I know, including myself swear by the 737.
Generally, most A-320 pilots I know, including a very close friend, swear by the A-320.
And that's really it. From pilots at AWA that I know that have flown both, they're generally slanted towards the 737 however appreciate the "picnic table" of the A-320 cockpit.
Between the 737NG and A-320, I can hardly tell a difference in the cabin. Of course it -all- depends on the configuration of the cabin as per the airline's specs. For example, people complain about DC-9's, however, have they flown Midwest Express DC-9s? Probably not.
Does that help folks?
Delta 737 Pilot ("If it aint Boeing, I aint going")
http://www.mindspring.com/~dltaylor (new updates!)
Udo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1133 times:
Always the same with those Airbus-Boeing discussions. I really can't hear it anymore. I was some months out of this discussion because I just wanted to relax, without reading ridiculous posts. Coming back now, it's exactly what I find: ridiculous posts.
Some people still think Airbus gives ALL planes away for a penny. No many more comments on this. They get aid, ok, but it's not as much as many think. And by the way, Boeing dumps the B737s as well, it's not long ago that I read B737 don't push up Boeing's profits very well...
But please, both companies have to earn money, and they earn money by selling some planes for real money.
Stop thinking Airbus just sells products because they offer them too low. Imagine, there are really customers who buy them for economic or technical reasons. But yes, I know, Americans are the only who can offer superior products. Sorry I forgot that. Yes you experts, you are right!
(Thank you for providing us with good comedy, it's better than watching all those shows...)
About America West: WHO has thought that they would ever buy anything else than A32X? With a already big fleet of A320 and A319, and still many orders to come, everything else than A32X wouldn't make sense. But some people don't realize that. Maybe you should read some more aviation magazines and books, rather writing strange posts, along with blind Boeing praise?
Just to inform you: I like both Airbus and Boeing products, but I can't accept all the nonsense which many people write here. Be just a little bit more objective, it would help a lot.