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Wake Turbulence From EK A380 Affects BA 777  
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Posted (3 years 21 hours ago) and read 25695 times:

Noted following interesting wake turbulence incident involving an Emirates A380 and following BA 777-200ER last week after departure from Toronto. Excerpt from Transport Canada daily incident reports for April 12.

The British Airways Boeing 777-200 (operating as flight BAW98) was on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to London (Heathrow) (EGLL). The Emirates Airbus A380-800 (operating as flight UAE242) was on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to Dubai (OMDB). NAV CANADA staff at Toronto ACC reported that at 0200Z, BAW98 was 11 miles in trail of UAE242, climbing through 11,000 feet to FL230. UAE242 was through 13,000 feet, climbing to FL230. The BAW98 flight crew reported wake turbulence from the preceding A380 aircraft. The pilot stated that this was "the heaviest wake turbulence he has ever flown through." The flights continued eastbound without further incident


And two other recent wake turbulence incidents dated April 18 (Delta) and March 30 (American Eagle).

DAL240, Delta Air Lines Airbus A330-200, enroute from Atlanta (KATL) to Rome (LIRF), was operating at a cleared altitude of 37,000 ft. when it was observed on radar climbing to 37,500 ft. and back to 37,000 ft. When queried, the crew advised that they encountered severe wake turbulence from a Boeing 747-400, 15 miles ahead at 38,000 ft. There was no loss of separation or operational impact.

American Eagle Airlines flight EGF4547, an Embraer 135LR aircraft, was on approach to Toronto just passing the LINNG intersection at 10000 feet when the flight began to encounter moderate turbulence. The flight queried ATC as to the aircraft ahead of them and ATC indicated there was a heavy 10 miles ahead of them. The flight was then cleared to 8000 feet. As the aircraft descended it encountered severe wake turbulence, the auto pilot disengaged and the aircraft rolled approximately 40 degrees and was difficult to control. The aircraft deviated right of course and climbed to 8500 feet to exit the turbulence. The remainder of the approach was uneventful.



Have there ever been any serious accidents blamed on wake turbulence?

[Edited 2011-04-18 18:14:47]

[Edited 2011-04-18 18:18:21]

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (3 years 21 hours ago) and read 25666 times:

The AA A300 crash out of JFK. There were others.

I think these incidents demonstrate that we don't really understand wake turbulence. There are interactions between the aircraft and natural eddies in the air currents that can amplify and cancel just like sound waves. The most extreme of these interactions are not easy to study in the real world.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (3 years 20 hours ago) and read 25454 times:

There was a Rex SAAB 340 if I remember right that was involved in a wake-turbulence incident involving an A380 landing on the parallel runway at Sydney airport (RWY34L - A380 and RWY34R - SAAB 340). That's from my vague memory.

It also experienced an inflight "upset" - which I think is the correct term for it.

Here we go, a.net search is your friend:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-077.aspx

I won't refer you to the topic, as it just had a heap of A -v- B hyperbole.

[Edited 2011-04-18 18:43:41]

[Edited 2011-04-18 19:37:25]

User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 19 hours ago) and read 25171 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 2):
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1287882/ao2008077.pdf

The link doesn't work for me, but I am interested in reading the article. An inflight upset at a low altitude would be very serious indeed.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 19 hours ago) and read 25105 times:

Once, when observing a pest control operation involving dusting a building, I watch the dust emerge in a narrow band and travel a few hundred feet into a second building - ALL of it. You can see a similar phenomena watching a smoker. the smoke from the cigarette will occasionally stay in a very narrow ribbon. I suspect that wake turbulance occasionally does not mingle with the rest of the air.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (3 years 19 hours ago) and read 25105 times:

Quoting brons2 (Reply 3):
The link doesn't work for me, but I am interested in reading the article. An inflight upset at a low altitude would be very serious indeed.

Sorry about that, I just copied the link across from the other thread assuming it'd still be active. Here you go:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-077.aspx

As you can see from the report, it was quite a serious departure from normal flight, a 52 degree roll to the left, 8 degree nose down pitch motion, and then 21 degree right bank (through wings level), and a loss of a 300 hundred or 400 feet over a fairly short period of time (descending through approx. 2400ft). The other factor here was the 35kt at 246° crosswind at 2400ft. The wake turbulence drifted into the SAAB's approach path.

[Edited 2011-04-18 19:45:31]

User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 hours ago) and read 22469 times:

Thread starter):
Have there ever been any serious accidents blamed on wake turbulence?

Going by memory here, think there was a DC-9 on a training flight in Dallas years ago, got caught in the wake of a a DC-10. Also a Cessna Citation in Wyoming caught the wake turbulence of a DC-9. Interesting that the same type aircraft was both the victim and cause of of a wake turbulence accident!

[Edited 2011-04-19 05:54:57]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12061 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 hours ago) and read 21847 times:

There was also an accident years ago behind a B-757, but I don't remember the details. It was that accident that prompted the FAA to increase the seperation behind the B-757.

User currently offlineAAExecPlat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 633 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 hours ago) and read 21408 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
American Eagle Airlines flight EGF4547, an Embraer 135LR aircraft, was on approach to Toronto just passing the LINNG intersection at 10000 feet when the flight began to encounter moderate turbulence. The flight queried ATC as to the aircraft ahead of them and ATC indicated there was a heavy 10 miles ahead of them. The flight was then cleared to 8000 feet. As the aircraft descended it encountered severe wake turbulence, the auto pilot disengaged and the aircraft rolled approximately 40 degrees and was difficult to control. The aircraft deviated right of course and climbed to 8500 feet to exit the turbulence. The remainder of the approach was uneventful.

Wow. 40 degrees is an insane angle no matter along which axis. That had to be very scary as a pax and pilot alike.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8204 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 hours ago) and read 21057 times:

At the park near DCA, you can hear the wind "ripping" in the sky above. Not sure what that means. It seems to come higher than the trees (which are not moving). It made an impression.

User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 hours ago) and read 20643 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
At the park near DCA, you can hear the wind "ripping" in the sky above. Not sure what that means. It seems to come higher than the trees (which are not moving). It made an impression.

Yeah, heard that sound too! Surprisingly, CRJ's make the loudest sound even though they are relatively small aircraft. Stand 1000' off the approach end of the runway on a calm quiet night, long after the plane has passed, whirrriiiioooopp, whiioooop, woooo wooo woo waaa aaaaa! from above.

[Edited 2011-04-19 07:26:26]

User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 hours ago) and read 19297 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
There was also an accident years ago behind a B-757, but I don't remember the details. It was that accident that prompted the FAA to increase the seperation behind the B-757.

If I remember correctly, this accident involved a small private jet that crashed approaching John Wayne airport in Orange County, CA following a Northwest 757.



every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 848 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 hours ago) and read 19298 times:

Nov. 15, 1987. CO 1713 from DEN to BOI. The flight sat too long after being deiced, that when it took of from Rwy 35L, it did not have any lift. However, there is a belief that a DL 767 landing on 35R a few seconds earlier, may have contributed to the accident, where the DC9 rolled to the left, before impacting the ground, at a 90 Deg angle.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):

At the park near DCA, you can hear the wind "ripping" in the sky above. Not sure what that means. It seems to come higher than the trees (which are not moving). It made an impression.

I too have heard that sound. Back in the 90s, the ABQ Sunport was having RWY 8 repaved. So traffic would use the short RWY 17 for arrivals. There is a golf course right at the end of 17, and while golfing one day, a TW 72S went over, followed shortly by the ripping/wooshing sound, then the tops of Cottonwoods would shiver. I sure took a long time playing golf, because I kept stopping to watch flights arrive, and listen to the wake turbulence, in the trees.
JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 hours ago) and read 18672 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
And two other recent wake turbulence incidents dated April 18 (Delta) and March 30 (American Eagle).

So the initial incident is the wake of an A380, the second the wake of a 744, do we know the heavy involved in the American Eagle incident?

In recent times, wake turbulence in terms of a/c generating it has been mainly the 744, the A380 being designed to use the same metric as the 744 for seperation and the 757 which has a wake which can be described as disproportionate to its size.If the Eagle issue is with either of the first two a/c we are well on the way to minimizing the issue even without the OEM acceptance or working reality.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5998 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 hours ago) and read 17851 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Quoting flaps30 (Reply 11):

This was the crashed that killed the owner of In-N-Out burger as he returned from opening their first store in Fresno.
From wikipedia.com:

However, after opening restaurant #93 in Fresno, California, on December 15, 1993, Rich Snyder and four other passengers died in a plane crash on approach to John Wayne Airport in Orange County, California. The charter aircraft they were on had been following a Boeing 757 in for landing, became caught in its wake turbulence, and crashed. The ensuing crash investigation led to the Federal Aviation Administration requirement for an adequate distance between heavy aircraft and following light aircraft to allow wake turbulence to diminish.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 hours ago) and read 17058 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 12):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):

At the park near DCA, you can hear the wind "ripping" in the sky above. Not sure what that means. It seems to come higher than the trees (which are not moving). It made an impression.


I too have heard that sound. Back in the 90s, the ABQ Sunport was having RWY 8 repaved. So traffic would use the short RWY 17 for arrivals. There is a golf course right at the end of 17, and while golfing one day, a TW 72S went over, followed shortly by the ripping/wooshing sound, then the tops of Cottonwoods would shiver. I sure took a long time playing golf, because I kept stopping to watch flights arrive, and listen to the wake turbulence, in the trees.
JD CRPXE

Eerie sound for sure, coming from the sky, by the time you hear it, the plane is already touching down on landing. First time I heard it, I ducked thinking a flock of bats or aliens invading!!!! LOL

[Edited 2011-04-19 09:35:57]

User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 hours ago) and read 16214 times:

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 10):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):At the park near DCA, you can hear the wind "ripping" in the sky above. Not sure what that means. It seems to come higher than the trees (which are not moving). It made an impression.
Yeah, heard that sound too! Surprisingly, CRJ's make the loudest sound even though they are relatively small aircraft. Stand 1000' off the approach end of the runway on a calm quiet night, long after the plane has passed, whirrriiiioooopp, whiioooop, woooo wooo woo waaa aaaaa! from above.

At YYZ when you are at the various spotting places on Airport Road you definitely hear the ripping/tearing of the vortices from landing aircraft. The WhaleJet does not seem the loudest but definitely kicks up far more turbulence, blowing dirt and debree around. (Off topic but also on takeoff.) The loudest ripping noise in all conditions seems to be Md11's. On a misty day it is quite interesting seeing the voticies roll off the wing tips. While by no means scientific, the 757 without winglets always seems to generate consistant vorticies.

On ATC I have heard smaller aircraft complain about wake turbulence and be told to slow or descend at a higher altitude than the previous aircraft.

I also think "conditions" can influence the unpredictability of the turbulence. For example two 744's landing back to back where one makes more wind noise than the other.


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 hours ago) and read 15697 times:

If you look at all of these examples, the trailing aircraft were slightly lower than the one ahead. What I learnt was that the vortices descend so it is best to be at least at the same altitude or a bit higher than a larger aircraft ahead. Wake turbulence is also worse in calm conditions, as the wind helps break the vortices up.

User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 hours ago) and read 15584 times:

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 6):
think there was a DC-9 on a training flight in Dallas years ago, got caught in the wake of a a DC-10.

Happened in 1972 at Fort Worth (the old Greater Southwest Airport, alongside where DFW now is). An AA DC-10 and a DL DC-9 were both doing touch-and-goes. The DC-10 was climbing out, and was (IIRC) about two miles ahead. Near touchdown, the DC-9 suffered an upset and rolled through 90 degrees, causing the wingtip to strike the ground. The inquiry determined that wake turbulence was the cause. The FAA introduced new separation requirements as a result, so it was evidently a defining accident in terms of the wake vortex phenomenon.

rj



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 hours ago) and read 14738 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Have there ever been any serious accidents blamed on wake turbulence?

In December 2008 a corporate jet - a Lear maybe? - crashed on approach to MEX/MMMX after flying too close to the preceding B767 and experiencing a flight upset because of wake turbulence. Multiple fatalities that included a high-level government official.

MB


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1219 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 hours ago) and read 14250 times:

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 18):
An AA DC-10 and a DL DC-9 were both doing touch-and-goes.

Why were airliners performing touch and goes?



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineoldtimer From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 hours ago) and read 13513 times:

[quote=AA777223,reply=20]Why were airliners performing touch and goes?

Because not all training was done in sims in the 60's and 70's, in fact smaller outfits still do training this way.

oldtimer



Oldtimer, I should have known better!
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4149 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 hours ago) and read 12982 times:
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It is very difficult to predict how a wake will behave. the only sure - and even then ! - phenomenon is that it tends to go downwards.
How strong it is going to be and how long it is going to last , outside very broad considerations are quite impossible to forecast. For instance, it will dissipate rather quickly in rough wreather and could stay a very long time on calm conditions :
Once I was on a 732, approaching Bahrain in the very early morning. NO wind, the sea was like a mirror lake, we passed on the way down the 1000ft temperature inversion that's common in these places in the summer, when we noticed two parallel thin triangles, some 20 meters apart, of disturbance on the sea surface. Someone said "what in the hell is that ? ", when the aircraft started a definite, strong bank to the right, which I countered, then again, more strongly, then bumps and pitch oscillations. We realised we were in a wake and overshot and went for a visual on the opposite end.

The funny part of the story was that the only possible cause for that wake was a DC-10 which landed some 20 minutes ahead of us. there had been no other aircraft movement at that time.
A converstation with the weather people : they told us that in all probability, the inversion kept the vortices down, but somehow brought enough energy for the wake to last that long.

Every pilot knows that at the firsdt tiny possibility of wake turbulence, he/she would plan for an above glide slope approach and a touch down further down the runway.
As usual, good com with the ATC is very important.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineHonza From Czech Republic, joined May 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 hour ago) and read 10304 times:

I witnessed Fokker F100 climbing thru the level of Boeing 747 which was 9 nautical miles in front, the Fokker reported "severe wake turbulence and 50 degrees bank".

User currently offlinemicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 773 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 hour ago) and read 9936 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Have there ever been any serious accidents blamed on wake turbulence?
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):

The AA A300 crash out of JFK. There were others.

I think on the AA A300 crash they had actually put the majority blaim on pilot use of excessive rudder force. With contributing blaim on the wake turb. But, I still see your point.



S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
25 Argonaut : They were both undertaking crew training. It was not a heavily used airport, so the airlines flew their aircraft over from DAL (Love Field, which was
26 ikramerica : You can hear that at the park next to In n Out at LAX. It's most pronounced when a 757 lands, and continues long after the jet has passed. It's as if
27 Pbb152 : Am I the only one who the a.net search does not work for? And hasn't since it worked for a short time in January? Just curious because this function
28 764 : Two things surprise me about this: 1) Wake turbulence is usually strongest when the aircraft is heavy (sure is) and slow (shouldn't have been). 2) The
29 lnglive1011yyz : I certainly am not a pilot, ATC person or anything, but I live in Toronto, and I can tell you that in the past two weeks we have been having incredibl
30 AirCalSNA : I think you're correct ... the private jet flipped over and nose dived into the ground for no (until later) obvious reason.
31 ikramerica : Well, the first lady can tell you about the accuracy of distances being quoted by ATC. They quoted 4 miles, but it was closer to 3, leading to an unn
32 Post contains images notaxonrotax : Ditto!! My trick is to Google "Airliners.net BLAH BLAH BLAH* ",and you normally find what you´re after. (*BLAH BLAH BLAH = the item you´re looking
33 Flighty : That is exactly the sort of thing that can explain this! Thanks for that.
34 timpdx : Well, please leave politics OUT of it, but here is a newsworthy story that just broke a couple of hours ago regarding turbulence (B737 vs C17): from t
35 Post contains links DavidYYC : Here is a very interesting TSB report of Wake Turbulence encountered on an AC A319 flying behind a UA 747. The parts that are particularly interesting
36 tdscanuck : The wake turbulence's only role in the AA A300 crash was to excite the pilot...the actual fin overload and crash was all flight crew. 40 degrees real
37 Post contains images B595 : Quite possible - the right inversion structure can trap & duct atmospheric gravity* waves excited by thunderstorms, helping these waves to propag
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