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Why No US Longhaul From PHX?  
User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10228 times:

I have always wondered why US Airways have never had any longhaul from PHX? I think they could give BA some good competition on the London route. I would assume the A332 could make it to Europe from there.


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41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Thread starter):


I have always wondered why US Airways have never had any longhaul from PHX? I think they could give BA some good competition on the London route. I would assume the A332 could make it to Europe from there.

Because HP had not had any sort of longhaul service out of PHX since the early 1990s, when they operated to 747s and the service was routed PHX-LAS-HNL-NGO and back. That service nearly drove America West under.


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As a result, HP never ventured into longhaul service until they bought US Airways. They've been content to keep their longhaul services as they are, out of CLT and PHL and feed their west coast passengers to either international flights operated by Star Alliance partners or send them to CLT or PHL to connect to longhaul flights.


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9981 times:

Wow I never knew America West had 747's! I suppose it is better to have the longhaul kept on the east coast. I was at CLT a couple months ago, it was easy connecting from the longhaul flight to short so I see why they should keep what they got going now.

By the way speaking off US longhaul, would Pittsburg ever have longhaul flights again?



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User currently offlinedumbell2424 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9903 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):
By the way speaking off US longhaul, would Pittsburg ever have longhaul flights again?

Doubt it. Although I have been hearing of DL dropping PIT-CDG, I have high doubts US would replace if DL pulls out of the route.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5345 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9786 times:

There are persistent rumors that PHX-NRT will become a reality once they receive the A332. In fact, a NRT slot to faciliitate PHX-NRT was part of the original US/DL slot swap. In terms of Europe, the only realistic route I see US considering is PHX-FRA to feed into LHs hub there. At this point, LHR is well served by BA.

The issue with PHX is that it is a very large market (currently the 6th largest city proper, and 14th largest metro area in the US), but it is quite far South and requires two aircraft to operate a TATL flight. At the same time, while there is a large business community in PHX, my understanding is that international traffic tends to be more leisure heavy than some other similarly sized markets.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):
Wow I never knew America West had 747's!

Yes indeed. As srbmod mentioned they were used to fly PHX-HNL-NGO. They were also used on the LAS-JFK flights. Their 742s were ex-KL birds.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):
By the way speaking off US longhaul, would Pittsburg ever have longhaul flights again?

I doubt it. If they were part of the Star JV, then I could potentially see them launch a PIT-FRA on a 757, but I don't think we'll see them go it alone given all of the flights out of PHL.



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User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9722 times:

I can't imagine why US would do such a thing. That's the whole point of alliances.


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User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1068 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9586 times:

From what I've heard, US would prefer to operate PHX-LHR before trying FRA (apparently with the assumption that BA would be pushed off the route). I think this is based primarily on the local market between the two cities. Once the A332 deliveries resume next year, I guess we'll find out how serious they are about those plans...


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User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3138 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9573 times:

Dougie and Co. keep pushing back their plans. First it was 2010, then 2012, then ?.

I think LH is waiting to see if US starts FRA.



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User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 9293 times:

There are not very many international long haul flights between the coasts generally, except where the larger airlines can aggregate enough passengers at ORD, DTW, DFW and IAH. Even at DFW and IAH (not to even mention DEN) they complain about the limited number of Transatlantic and Transpacific flights. Most airlines have their Transatlantic flights depart from their eastern hubs and Transpacific from their western hubs, with exceptions for a few major destinations like LHR, NRT or an alliance hub. US has most of its Transatlantic flights out of PHL and PHX probably cannot generate enough of a premium to bypass PHL.

The most likely longhaul for PHX would be west or south but most of those would have to be new or resumed destinations for US.


User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 9069 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 4):
Yes indeed. As srbmod mentioned they were used to fly PHX-HNL-NGO. They were also used on the LAS-JFK flights. Their 742s were ex-KL birds.

they were also from PHX to JFK as well...1 in the AM and the other in the PM...1 from PHX and the other from LAS


User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8953 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 4):
There are persistent rumors that PHX-NRT will become a reality once they receive the A332. In fact, a NRT slot to faciliitate PHX-NRT was part of the original US/DL slot swap. In terms of Europe, the only realistic route I see US considering is PHX-FRA to feed into LHs hub there. At this point, LHR is well served by BA.

I think you mean when they receive the A350...or at least that's the word on the street. I don't see NRT working all that well, but I agree with you that a FRA flight, even 4-5x weekly would work well. It's a *A hub to hub, not to mention a massive number of Germans who visit PHX, as well as those who may connect onwards (although I'd be willing to bet most pax would be O&D). BA serves LHR very well with a 6x weekly 744 if I'm not mistaken, and from what I hear, they fill them too.

The main reason there's no PHX US long haul is because they still haven't figured out their damn contracts, 6 years on or however long it is now. Others who are more informed than I can comment further, but my understanding is that new long haul service can only be added from CLT and PHL until the pilot contract disputes are resolved. Shameless, in my opinion, but yet they still want another merger! They need to finish the first one before they move on. PHX is underutilized by them in a lot of ways IMHO, regardless of it's low yield.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6513 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8531 times:

[quote=USAirALB,reply=7]Dougie and Co. keep pushing back their plans. First it was 2010, then 2012, then ?.

Which plans are those that keep being pushed back?


User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Because HP had not had any sort of longhaul service out of PHX since the early 1990s, when they operated to 747s and the service was routed PHX-LAS-HNL-NGO and back. That service nearly drove America West under

I was on one of their flights to NGO, i believe in 1991 or 92, and from HNL-NGO their were a total of 34 passengers, and 6 of us were non-revs.


User currently offlinexaapb From Mexico, joined Jan 2005, 445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7765 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, I used to connect a lot in PHX when flying to LAS from MEX, and I remember seeing Lufthansa in PHX, I think A340? What happen to that flight?
greetings



Jorge Meneses
User currently offlinePohlcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6600 times:
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Lufthansa pulled out at the beginning of 2004.


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User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1142 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 10):
The main reason there's no PHX US long haul is because they still haven't figured out their damn contracts, 6 years on or however long it is now. Others who are more informed than I can comment further, but my understanding is that new long haul service can only be added from CLT and PHL until the pilot contract disputes are resolved. Shameless, in my opinion, but yet they still want another merger! They need to finish the first one before they move on. PHX is underutilized by them in a lot of ways IMHO, regardless of it's low yield.

No, there is no such clause in either pilot contract. The only deal is, any A-330 or 767 out of PHX would have to flown by East crews, since those a/c are only on the East pilot contract.


User currently offlineASMVPGOLD From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

I flew on one of HP's 747's when i was a kid... late night flight from LAS to PHX... you can't imagine how excited i was then my plane finally showed up at the gate and it was a 747... I was certain I was at the wrong gate. The plane was basically empty.. maybe 40 people (it was running about 3 hours late and i think most had found other flights to PHX) and the flight was hardly long enough to even enjoy the 747... but it's one flight i will never forget.


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User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 7):
Dougie and Co. keep pushing back their plans. First it was 2010, then 2012, then ?.

I think LH is waiting to see if US starts FRA.

I think it could maybe have something to do with Airbus pushing back its EIS of the A350. Not "Dougie."



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User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 15):

Yeah that's what I was getting at. Unfortunately I wrote that post in a hurry before boarding a flight (to PHX!) and was - and still am - sleep deprived. Because the pilot contracts for seniority haven't merged, they've left the int'l crews alone and are all PMUS/east, although if they tried to add a Europe/Asia route out of PHX with east crews, me thinks it wouldn't go down so well with the PMHP/west folks. They also would have to commit potentially 2 aircraft to run a 5-6x weekly service from PHX-LHR/FRA/etc., although maybe not for an NRT route, and they won't be able to commit those aircraft until they receive more 332s or whenever they get the 350s. I also think that US may have trouble venturing into Asia given how close PHX is to LAX and the huge volume of traffic from there to Asia, particularly among *A carriers. I do believe that PHX-FRA is a route that would work well from either US or LH. I suppose there's a reason LH pulled out 7 years ago, but that was before PHX was a *A hub. I could see it being a profitable route like LHR is for BA. As for other int'l routes to Europe or Asia, unfortunately I'm not convinced. PHX is too low yield and has a very high O&D percentage.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3138 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 7):
Dougie and Co. keep pushing back their plans. First it was 2010, then 2012, then ?.

I think LH is waiting to see if US starts FRA.

I think it could maybe have something to do with Airbus pushing back its EIS of the A350. Not "Dougie."

No. US has stated to be on the look out for long-haul from PHX in late 2010, but they were quick to change the date to 2012. I'll try to find an article.



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User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 4):
The issue with PHX is that it is a very large market (currently the 6th largest city proper, and 14th largest metro area in the US), but it is quite far South and requires two aircraft to operate a TATL flight

I think if US plan the schedules properly, a TATL round-trip can be done with one aircraft. I may be wrong but KLM manages to do AMS-LAX-AMS, maybe not with the same aircraft but based on the current timings for the route, only one aircraft is necessary.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25838 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4606 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 20):
I may be wrong but KLM manages to do AMS-LAX-AMS, maybe not with the same aircraft but based on the current timings for the route, only one aircraft is necessary.

AMS-LAX-AMS needs 2 aircraft. No airline in the world manages to get 21 hrs. 15 min. daily utilization out of one aircraft (total block times AMS-LAX-AMS). And you can't turn around a widebody in 35 minutes (LAX-AMS arrives at 0915 and AMS-LAX departs at 0950).


User currently offlineUSXguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4597 times:

Actually under the US pilots TA, they have to contribute equal amounts (on a prorated basis) of new flying using newly acquired aircraft. That's one reason some of the Westies are upset - they feel that PHX/LAS should be given some of the E190 flying that went purely to the East.

There are carve-outs allowing East crews to operate 1 daily flight to Hawai'i from Phoenix, and I believe West crews can fly 2 international flights out of either PHL or CLT. I believe new growth can go to whomever, and we will see the A330-200 flown by west crews once they throw 2 over there (which is what they are waiting on, I'm told).



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User currently offlineapjung From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

While we are talking about US at PHX any ideas why there is no nonstop service on US to MSY?

When HP abruptly pulled the PHX-MSY service in August 2005 when Hurricane Katrina made landfall, they never brought the service back when they acquired US and went with the US Airways name. I didn't want to create a whole new topic so I figured this would be the best place to ask.



Andy P. Jung
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 4230 times:

Quoting apjung (Reply 23):
While we are talking about US at PHX any ideas why there is no nonstop service on US to MSY?
When HP abruptly pulled the PHX-MSY service in August 2005 when Hurricane Katrina made landfall, they never brought the service back when they acquired US and went with the US Airways name. I didn't want to create a whole new topic so I figured this would be the best place to ask.

Good question.. WN serves MSY. It seems like it could sustain a daily 319 at the least, and routing via CLT is quite out of the way. Maybe the geniuses at US have some better insight than we do. They ARE quite good at doing things that make sense...


25 wn676 : Per the TA, West crews can operate two daily r/t's to Europe (as well as two to the Caribbean), it doesn't specify out of which city. If US takes del
26 nycdave : I've just always been surprised they don't offer more flights from PHX to Mexico and central America, to compete with CO from IAH and AA from MIA...
27 usflyer msp : I would not expect US to begin PHX-Europe service anytime soon. A332's are a valuable commodity and can be much better utilized from PHL and CLT. The
28 Post contains images laca773 : . Also, would the A332 have load restrictions during the busy summer months due to the extreme summer heat which would obviously affect range and cap
29 93Sierra : Why doesnt US go farther south into South America from PHX?
30 Maverick623 : The demand just isn't there. They have trouble operating SJO 4x weekly.
31 USAirALB : Because the market isn't that strong. Just like you don't see a lot of nonstops from LAX and SFO into South America. Most of the traffic that goes to
32 93Sierra : How does US compare as far as their Mexico service vs. the other legacies and Alaska? They have quite a bit of destinations from PHX with little compe
33 HPRamper : Probably as simple as saying that 319 pulls a better profit flying somewhere else. There's no rule that says US needs to fly to MSY. Would be conveni
34 ERJ170 : Just a wonder, but it seems that as the years progress, US is becoming much more "USAirways" than "America West". I have seen much more concentration
35 HPRamper : Basically, spot on. East Coast markets are closer together, and have more concentrated business interests than West Coast markets meaning you will ge
36 Maverick623 : More like no competition. Aeromexico flies to HMO (with a continuation to MEX), a route US serves with 1 daily Dash-8 (occasionally upgraded to a CR2
37 ERJ170 : Hmmm.. well then wouldn't it make sense to move the HQ back to Crystal City? I mean, their largest hubs are on the east coast.. their long haul is on
38 HPRamper : I don't think the Crystal City space came very cheap. And in any case, PHX is still more important to the airline than DCA is, and location of a HQ i
39 USXguy : the west coast doesn't get as much action as the East because the economy has hit the PHX/LAS hubs harder than most, and with the UA codeshare, it mak
40 atcsundevil : The LAS hub was drawn back because of its proximity to PHX. The economy has not hit PHX (the airport) any harder than anywhere else, in fact, many ot
41 PHX Flyer : The Arizona economy is in shambles, and US simply adapted to the economic realities. They have plans in the drawer to expand here in Phoenix, but now
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