tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12046 times:
When did AA start receiving its MD-11s, and how soon did they notice they weren't performing to specifications? How long did it take for them to decide to order the 777 instead, and when did they start receiving them?
commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10191 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12031 times:
Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter): how soon did they notice they weren't performing to specifications?
Pretty much immediately.
AA's outstanding MD11 orders were curtailed, and a deal relatively quickly worked out to sell the airplanes ultimately delivered (totalling 19) to FedEx as soon as replacements began arriving, including the 777 in 1999.
Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter): How long did it take for them to decide to order the 777 instead, and when did they start receiving them?
The first 777 order was finalized on 21 November 1996, with the first delivery on 21 January 1999. The last MD11 was retired in - if I'm not mistaken - 2001.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7345 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11600 times:
AA expected the plane to have issues but in 1990 the only other viable options were more 763ER or 744's. The A340 was still 3 years away and the 777 5 years away. AA was in teh middle of buying LHR, Latin America plus expanding service to Japan with SEA a & San Jose to NRT. AA needed planes "yesterday" in a big way and the MD-11 was the only bigger then a 767 option to get there. They even had to configure some A300-600 from "caribean" configuration to 3 class Atlantic with F and J seats for BOS and JFK to LHR flights. The 777 proved to be AA's answer, who could have imagined 77W joining the fleet.
aa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13975 posts, RR: 59 Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11569 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2): only bigger then a 767 option
AA flew a DC-10-30 to NRT from SJC for a short period.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11276 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 1): The last MD11 was retired in - if I'm not mistaken - 2001.
IIRC the last MD11 routes were DFW-SCL and DFW-GRU. DFW-FRA wasn't changed to other equipment too long before that. So it appears they were last used on long international flights out of DFW.
fxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7023 posts, RR: 93 Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11253 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5): IIRC the last MD11 routes were DFW-SCL and DFW-GRU. DFW-FRA wasn't changed to other equipment too long before that. So it appears they were last used on long international flights out of DFW.
Your correct. Narita was one of the first replacements on the 777 sending the 11 to South America. A shame the 11 didn't live any longer than it did in AA livery. I had a blast in the 11 sim at DFW Flight Academy before 9/11 jacked everything up.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3681 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11085 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2): They even had to configure some A300-600 from "caribean" configuration to 3 class Atlantic with F and J seats for BOS and JFK to LHR flights
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2657 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10994 times:
Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter): When did AA start receiving its MD-11s, and how soon did they notice they weren't performing to specifications?
I'm sure there are 1000's of threads on this question, but please excuse my question..how bad was it performing and what were they expecting? I was almost going to say something like, well they merged with TWA in the early '00's and they had long haul capability but after some research into real numbers TWA's long haul fleet was pathetic at any date after 2000.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6871 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10707 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 1): The first 777 order was finalized on 21 November 1996, with the first delivery on 21 January 1999. The last MD11 was retired in - if I'm not mistaken - 2001.
October 2001 was the last MD-11 flight, GRU-DFW.
The DC-10's last flight was November 2000, HNL-DFW.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10698 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 8): how bad was it performing and what were they expecting?
Claimed range was 7200 nm at first. The actual range turned out to be more like 6500 nm. Obviously this caused a lot of trouble on ~6000 nm (GC) routes.
Later on, with all the improvements rolled in, the aircraft ended up with a range of over 7000 nm, comparable to the A340-300X.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10641 times:
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10): Later on, with all the improvements rolled in, the aircraft ended up with a range of over 7000 nm, comparable to the A340-300X.
And close to the original 777-200IGW spec as well.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10448 times:
What performance improvement changes did they implement for the MD-11? I know engines (both PW and GE) had a lot to do with it.
MileHighOffice From Australia, joined Jun 2010, 153 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10355 times:
The MD-11 did not deliver the range as promised, and when it closer its fate was already sealed with AA and DL. The 777 gave them better lift and range performance (NRT was the big one for both) with two engines. With the MD11 DL had range issue with ATL and JFK and AA had issues with JFK and DFW. Sometimes stops in SEA or ANC westbound. Management was not happy.
That being said, the MD-11 was a wonderful airplane to fly on. What is may have lacked in range on the 7,000nm runs it made up for in experience when if roared off the runway like a rocket. (Of course, the AA 777s on MIA-DFW used to rocket up to 41,000 feet before you crossed the everglades -- when the weather was stormy around South Florida the high-speed climb they could put on with the 777 was amazing... above the weather in no time -- so the magic of the 11 on that route was soon replaced by the biz buzz saws!)
The tri-motors are a thing of the past, but in terms of gracefulness the L-1011, DC-10 and MD-11 still rate among the most fun to watch.
tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10297 times:
Quoting MileHighOffice (Reply 13): The tri-motors are a thing of the past, but in terms of gracefulness the L-1011, DC-10 and MD-11 still rate among the most fun to watch.
I'm hoping to actually fly on a KLM MD-11 sometime before they're withdrawn from passenger service. I'd love to fly on a DC-10 too, but the only passenger airline still operating them is Biman Bangladesh, and I don't think I can fly all the way to Dhaka just for that. If only I could catch a ride on a FedEx MD-10 or a USAF KC-10!
The777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6082 posts, RR: 56 Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9973 times:
AA was so unhappy with the short falls in range of the MD-11 that they refuesed to take delivery of them. I guess they worked out a deal with McDonnel-Douglas and eventually took delivery. Must have been very embarrassing when the launch customer refuses delivery.......
The777Man
Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....GA, T5, CI and LX 777s
IIRC, I think the delivered plane was 100kg over and McDonald Douglas settled the dispute with AA by a rembusement of one full fare Y seat on every flight the MD11 made.
C133 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7428 times:
When the fleet was new there were a ton of false failure messages because the parameters were cranked down too tight. For a while (a few weeks, I think) Crandall even parked the delivered airplanes while M-D sorted it all out. The situation was bad enough that employees called the MD-11 "The Scud", as in the old missile. You could launch it, but you never knew where it would come down.
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10191 posts, RR: 62 Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7428 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16): Wasn't reliability another issue with the MD11? I watched the plane into FRA often to be many hours late.
Yes.
I have been attacked for this in the past, but I know from personal experience and from friends who were AA MD11 pilots and worked in AA maintenance at the time that the plane did not have a very good reputation with a lot of people within AA. Its frequent tech stops - it spent time in Iceland, for example - earned the plane the nickname "Death Star" and "Scud" among some AA pilots and maintainers.
135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 356 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6663 times:
When AA first got their MD-11's they threw them back immediately because they could neither meet the range, nor capacity as MD advertised. They threw back the first 25 (I don't know how many they eventually accepted prior to being pushed over to FED-Ex) for "fix" and that helped lead to the 777. However, when Boeing bought MD in 1995, Boeing refused to take anymore MD-11 orders since it was a direct competition for the (much better and more reliable/efficient) 777-200.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5364 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 19): I have been attacked for this in the past, but I know from personal experience and from friends who were AA MD11 pilots and worked in AA maintenance at the time that the plane did not have a very good reputation with a lot of people within AA. Its frequent tech stops - it spent time in Iceland, for example - earned the plane the nickname "Death Star" and "Scud" among some AA pilots and maintainers.
I've also heard pilots say that it's a particularly difficult airplane to fly, especially it's handling qualities during landing.
That's what happens when you are more interested in laying off people and making decisions for the short-term like Harry Stonecipher and company. That's why the MD-11 was a relative failure and McDonnell Douglas is no longer in business. That worked so well at McD that they adopted the same philosophy at Boeing for awhile too. Fortunately, new leadership is more interested in good engineering and long term investment.
BOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5224 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16):
Wasn't reliability another issue with the MD11? I watched the plane into FRA often to be many hours late.
I believe you're right. I remember having to disembark a MD-11 operating AA70 to FRA because of a fuel leak. We were still at the gate, when we found out about it. They put us on a different MD-11 about three hours later..
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 4653 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4781 times:
I seem to remember somewhere that when AA was shopping for a plane bigger than the 767-300, Boeing was working on the 777-200 design. AA felt that the wingspan for the 777 was going to be a problem, when it came to parking at gates. So, a folding wingtip became an option, at AA's request.
Then, AA decided to go with the MD-11, because it was going to be ready for delivery well ahead of the 777. From what I read, Boeing was a bit upset at having gone to the effort of designing a folding wingtip, and then AA didn't order the plane.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7345 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4660 times:
Quoting ckfred (Reply 23): Then, AA decided to go with the MD-11, because it was going to be ready for delivery well ahead of the 777. From what I read, Boeing was a bit upset at having gone to the effort of designing a folding wingtip, and then AA didn't order the plane.
Things worked out well for Boeing and AA's large 777 fleet.
25 commavia: [quote=ckfred,reply=23]I seem to remember somewhere that when AA was shopping for a plane bigger than the 767-300, Boeing was working on the 777-200 d
26 IrishAyes: I am intrigued by the fact that AA used the MD-11's on the DFW-SCL/GRU flights. I always thought these were served by 763s until the GRU flight was up
27 aov747: The 777 rocks, but the MD-11 was a fine airplane, all MD labour and management issues considered. Many airlines loved the birds , like KLM, and they s
28 MileHighOffice: The wing space seemed to be a big issue for them. Was LGA ever a consideration for the 777 or MD-11 during pre-design? The 777 and MD-11 were too hea
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