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AF-KL Profit Largely Due To KL Performance  
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 442 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 14477 times:

According to this article (in french), http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01...4-klm-vole-au-secours-d-air-france , the financial results for bookyear 2010-2011 broke up in the following way between the 2 companys:

Operating income AF: €60.000.000
Operating income KL: €348.000.000

Now the interesting part is that AF is twice the size of KL !


FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4409 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 14365 times:
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I'm always amazed at how clever people can define where AF stops and KL starts.   
To think that KL would have achieved a similar result on their own is, to this observer, misplaced ideas on economics, parsed with quite an amount of Jingoism.
This said, it is quite true that the AF cost structure looks quite expensive, considering the labour costs, taxes...etc...
It is also true that in the alliance, It's about all benefits for KL with very few drawbacks : a protected network in Europe, without the competition from the TGV and the lo-cos...Fleet renewal with the coverage of a big airline... etc... etc.
Last year, AFKL took a beating on fuel hedging gone badly wrong. The losses were input in totality to the AF accounts.
Really, it takes someone a lot cleverer than I to separate both accounts.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineph-bfa From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14264 times:

full year results (2010 - 2011 financial year) still need to be disclosed.

User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14080 times:

In the LH Group, SWISS always manages to outperform LH... But as mentionned by Pihero, the smaller of the 2 would probably have not achieved their results if it weren't for the synergies brought on by its bigger sister... In the end, it's the same pocket!

User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14009 times:

It may be a pure coincidence, but in both cases (KLM and Swiss) the best performing airline is the one that offers by far the best service to the customers.


chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13952 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 4):
It may be a pure coincidence, but in both cases (KLM and Swiss) the best performing airline is the one that offers by far the best service to the customers.




I would say you nailed it, pure coincidence!


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13806 times:

It is also a pure conincidence that in both cases the profits are mostly in those countries that have the far lower corporate tax   

Just compare in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax


User currently offlineklmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13130 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
I'm always amazed at how clever people can define where AF stops and KL starts.
To think that KL would have achieved a similar result on their own is, to this observer, misplaced ideas on economics, parsed with quite an amount of Jingoism.

This information comes directly from the group CEO Gourgeon. And this is not the first time it happens since the merger.
The CEO says LH is gaining on AFKL each year, rapidly, and that the middle east carriers are the biggest threat .

If AF, who's indeed twice the size of KL, would be just as efficient as KL, the whole group would be much better
armed against the likes of LH, EK, QR, ...

I hope AF gets it's act together, and takes a crash course with KL on how to run an airline, but I'm afraid that would
result in more and bigger strikes in Paris.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4409 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13011 times:
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Quoting klmcedric (Reply 7):

I hope AF gets it's act together, and takes a crash course with KL on how to run an airline, but I'm afraid that would
result in more and bigger strikes in Paris.

Typical jingoism, as I described it earlier.
Why don't you accept the fact that KLM is no more, but some blue paint on some airplanes which belong to a coporation called AFKL, and that there might be a Dutch management of KLM but the decisons are from a corporate based at CDG ?
And if you don't like it, that's just tough :
We're just being polite and call it an *alliance* or a *merger*, while the truth is KLM has been bought and maybe AirFrance is taking advantage of the KLM brand of management.
And also face the fact that KLM was selling itself basically to all comers before AF came by !... BA could have bought it, had they not been so arrogant but LH wasn't ready then.
But to think that KLM could have done it on its own is just wishful thinking.
And ir you met some AF aircrews, I'd advise you to not show that sort of attitude as the main beneficiary of the merger was KL : AF crews have seen quite a few reductions on their network to the benefit of those based in AMS.
The reaction could be more violent than this post on a forum.
And maybe, just maybe, it is smarter to advertize the minimum of profits in the country of the highest corporate taxes and input the bulk of the profits inhe more favourable one. At the end of the day, that money isn't showing in the Nederland.
Sounds ridiculous ?

[Edited 2011-04-21 14:11:22]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2700 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12353 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
It is also a pure conincidence that in both cases the profits are mostly in those countries that have the far lower corporate tax   

Haha! Well spotted. Perhaps we'll see the same with BA and IB? Though I'm not sure which country has the lower tax there.


User currently offlineAmsterdam From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12212 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):

What you basically just said out of some sort of frustration it seems is ´But... but we own KLM! lalalalala´.
Quite childish and totally not relevant.

By the way, AMS is gold.
AMS is easily the most superiour hub in Europe, and a big ´asset of´ KLM.

And you say that KLM benefits a lot from AF right.
But AF without KLM is no leading airline either. Don´t fool yourself.


It seems that the AF workers think AF exists for them, like it´s some sort of ´right´.
While the KLM workers know that nothing is just ´given´ and everyone needs to work hard for the company.
That´s why KLM pilots where working on the ground, connecting bridges, making flight plans etc. the last two years, while AF pilots say that not in a thousand years they will work on the ground.

Just like how AF unions are blocking further growth of Martinair Cargo, eventhough the demand for Martinair to fly more cargo is there, but they don´t want MA to grow without something happening in Paris, but the cost of AF Cargo is much higher than MA so it won´t work as well. Now other airlines are flying cargo MA should fly.


Things like that.
And AFKL deliberately putting the losses on to AF´s account doesn´t make the ´mentality´ story different.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

Quoting klmcedric (Reply 7):

I hope AF gets it's act together, and takes a crash course with KL on how to run an airline, but I'm afraid that would
result in more and bigger strikes in Paris.

They at least need to take a course in cleaning aircraft exteriors  



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4409 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11896 times:
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Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 10):
What you basically just said out of some sort of frustration it seems is ´But... but we own KLM! lalalalala´.
Quite childish and totally not relevant.

No; All these posts are about how good KLM is against how bad Air France is.
If that is really the case, please, let the good airline buys itself out of a lousy deal.;; I'll even participate 50 euros as a gift.
I'm sure there are enough patriots in Holland to buy it back
So we won't have this silly argument.
And Yes, We are a bit tired of being cheated out of our fair share of the growth just because the tax system in Amsterdam is more favourable to corporate. And yes, we will resist Martinair growth if it's done against ours.
And frankly, this "we are the best" is becoming quite tiring. Who bought the other one ? Maybe there were a few things done correctly in AF's management to free so much cash that we could afford the mighty, brilliant,extraordinary performing KLM, or am I dreaming and in fact KLM is part of LuftHansa ?
Look again at last years' results and the impact of fuel hedging gone wrong. Who took the totality of that loss ?
Did you see it inside the accounts as KL's losses ? If yes, show us where ?
As now the fuel prices have gone up again and hedging is now very favourablre, it will be interesting to see where the savings or the gains will be put .



Contrail designer
User currently offlinealitalia610 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11786 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
It is also true that in the alliance, It's about all benefits for KL with very few drawbacks : a protected network in Europe, without the competition from the TGV and the lo-cos...Fleet renewal with the coverage of a big airline... etc... etc.

AF has a protected market too.
The low cost penetration in the french market is,as a matter of fact,nothing compared to all other major european countries.
The TGV competition is surely a big deal for AF,but as far as i know they found a way to collaborate with SNCF by selling the ride on the TGV from CDG train station to some destinations(like BRU) were it was impossible to compete with the train.

For sure AF management has a big part in the success of KL,but that is also thanks to the peculiarity and the qualities of an airline(KL) and an airport(AMS) that historically have been able to attract and generate traffic from everywhere,always with big numbers(even without domestic routes or a big domestic O&D).
So AF managers where able to use these qualities at their best.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4409 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11669 times:
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Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 10):
While the KLM workers know that nothing is just ´given´ and everyone needs to work hard for the company.
That´s why KLM pilots where working on the ground, connecting bridges, making flight plans etc. the last two years, while AF pilots say that not in a thousand years they will work on the ground.

Sorry I missed that lovely pearl.
As usual, the truth is somewhat different as this article shows :
"
KLM pilots volunteer for ground duties

Thursday, June 11, 2009

Martin Ferguson

KLM pilots are to work ground staff shifts this summer as the Dutch airline attempts to cut costs.

The airline is aiming to get more use out of underemployed pilots while avoiding the need to hire seasonal summer staff from recruitment agencies.

Pilots received letters earlier this month enticing them to have a “behind the scenes” look at the operation as part of a voluntary scheme.

“We’ve had an enormously good reaction,” a spokesman said.

Jobs on offer include dealing with locating missing luggage, providing hospitality in business-class lounges and lifting oversize luggage.

The pilots union in Holland has backed the initiative on the basis it is voluntary.

They will earn their normal salary and benefits. More than 100 are thought to have applied.

Top KLM pilots earn up to €246,000, while entry level fliers start at €48,000.


If I read English correctly, they manage to have the most expensive ground staff (where did you see a 4000 euros/month gate operator ? ) and at the same time managed to cheat the ground people out of some possible jobs. Really good !

Article here

I confess that is the most impressive economical move I've seen and the pilots'dedication to the lovely motto "KLM workers know that nothing is just ´given´ and everyone needs to work hard for the company.
is the most unselfish, praiseworthy attitude I have ever seen.
     

to alitalia610
Yes, I basically agree with you, except on the nature of that market protection : France has had the densest domestic services in Europe and just with a scale effect, can match most of the tariffs LoCos are proposing, and now that FR"s strategy is better understood, it can be countered more easily. Just look at their antics at Pau, Lourdes and Marseille...
As for the TGV, it's hurting and AF will continue losing traffic to the train on Strasbourg, Marseille, Toulouse, Bordeaux... (Lyon is basically gone excepot for tansversals, i.e province-province flights). So why not join them, although Brussels hasn't been a money-making destination for a very long time.

[Edited 2011-04-21 17:46:33]


Contrail designer
User currently offlinemow From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10126 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
KLM is no more, but some blue paint on some airplanes

Unfortunately this is how most of AF staff regard KLM even after all these years.
They show absolutely no respect to KL heritage or achievements. They show absolutely no interest in KL's current developments. They have built zero knowledge on KL product. They have zero motivation to sell or promote KL. For AF staff KL just don't exist. Bright and cloudless future for AFKL, huh?


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10006 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
And Yes, We are a bit tired of being cheated out of our fair share of the growth just because the tax system in Amsterdam is more favourable to corporate.

I work for a large company and we have approximately 150 frequent travellers (Platinum or Senator) in my division alone (of which up to 20 can be considered as fiscally non-resident, since they are overseas on business for more than 180 days a year! In my case I fly approx 50 return trips a year, of which 20 are long-haul/ultra long-haul).
Our business travel policy allows us to fly J class when the total flight time is over 4 hours, so we are "premium" passengers.

When we book our flights, the pricing between AF-KLM and DLH come out pretty much the same (aside from some very specific routes), so we can choose which alliance we fly with.

80% of our guys choose DLH because the service is consistently predictable and good, and transferring through MUC or FRA is ok. And your luggage pretty much gets to where you're going when you're there too.

15% of us (including me) have affinities with Skyteam, but we ALL fly with KLM on business (unless we're going to Paris or somewhere in France). KLM J Class may not have the same very predictable service that DLH has, but it is friendly, we like the KLM Dutch houses, AMS is nice to transfer through (I can even make it to the lounge on a 1hr connect), and the Crown lounges are very nice (quiet, always a seat available, food service, smoking area). And AMS is usually pretty good with luggage.

Every time I go through CDG it is a nightmare transfer (even though I know the airport like the back of my hand so can take the "shortcuts" across from one terminal to another). Last time coming back from Hong Kong French border police were doing a check in the jetway, yelling at passengers complete with barking narcotics dog. Nice welcome home!

AF customer service in CDG is also poor. Coming back from Asia passport control was blocked (only 2 agents on duty, both stuck with problem passengers!) and I missed my 1h15 connection. AF refused to rebook me on the following flight and my company had to purchase another ticket ("if you miss your connection and you had more than 1hr stopover, it's your problem" - and what if I'm stuck in the passport control queue?).

I've stopped counting the number of times CDG has delayed or broken my luggage (actually I've just been refunded by AF for a broken wheel and a delayed delivery on my suitcase that happened when I was rerouted through CDG due to bad weather in AMS in Feb). The good thing is, I've got so many courtesy AF T shirts and shaving kits at home I can cater for a busload of unexpected visitors.

The last time I flew to Hong Kong with AF, 2 AF GPs were brought up from economy and started partying (loudly) in J class. They're going on holiday, but I need some rest before I have to work at the other end! A quiet word with the chief purser resulted in that gentleman YELLING at me, telling me that GPs no longer exist at AF and that "everyone's got a right to do what they want if they've paid the full fare ticket". Bad atmosphere in J class for the rest of the flight, since all the other pax there felt the same way as me, but didn't fancy the shouting match. I had 48h in Hong Kong, checked with a friend and the same crew were scheduled to operate my return flight, so I came back Cathay Pacific instead. My company doesn't pay several thousand euros so that I can get lied to and yelled at.

Finally, when I buy a premium eco ticket on KLM I get europe select on the european sector, when I buy J Class on AF I get Y class treatment on la navette up to Paris.

There are lots of fundamentals that AF needs to address in order to recapture the business traveller segment (and don't get me wrong, I love AF from an aircraft and aircrew perspective, I have lots of friends who are pilots or engineers at AF/AF Industries, and when I fly AF it is generally to fly with them!). Good job KLM serves my business needs, overwise I would have abandoned my Skyteam Platinum status for some Star Alliance Senator points...

The last 5% of business travellers in my division are british, so they choose to fly British Airways (but even they recognise that flying through LHR is a bit messy!).


User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1403 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9994 times:

Quoting airbuster (Thread starter):
Now the interesting part is that AF is twice the size of KL !

So? You have any data&explanation on where, how and why the profits&losses are booked at a certain entities?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
I'm sure there are enough patriots in Holland to buy it back

No, I think there are not too many people in the Netherlands with a normal brain that want to buy back KLM.
Why would they? Things have not developed for the worse since AF took over KL. Years ago when AF took over KL there was lots of talk going around that AMS will be marginalized to nothing more than a small focus city. I can't backup the numbers, but I think on a whole KL has a more dense network than the pre-2004.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
And yes, we will resist Martinair growth if it's done against ours.

I don't think this us vs them is good within one corporation. It should be us, AFKL is a public company serving the interest of the stockholders.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinelombro From Netherlands, joined Mar 2010, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9802 times:

Why do I not understand the heated argumentation of our French friend to assure that AF does such a great job, when a Dutchman quotes the CEO's (!) information on the gain/losses of AF/KL??? Would he have reacted differently (or not at all?) when a Zimbabwiane had posted this??
Why not accept the fact that a smaller part of the unity made more money than big brother and together say: "See, this was a great thing to do bringing both airlines together. And then just call it merger if you like, who cares!! But perhaps that is the difference between being pragmatical and chauvinistc.


User currently offlineboeing767er From Netherlands, joined Oct 2010, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9691 times:

Is it me or is this topic starting to get real embarrasing.

Industry wide companies are struggling for income and existence, and yet here we are discussing which part of the AFKL merger is making the most money.

As far as the numbers concern, I couldn't give a hoot. They are probably manipulated anyway. A profit has been made, and I think both the Dutch and the French should be proud of this extraordinary merger and mostly, respect the heritage of two iconic companies.

Just my two cents  

Luc

[Edited 2011-04-22 01:32:44]

User currently offlineEclipz From France, joined Jun 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9644 times:

Quoting lombro (Reply 18):
But perhaps that is the difference between being pragmatical and chauvinistc.

Well, i'm not sure it's chauvinism. I can't speak for Piehro but i guess he is just defending is (former ?) company because he doesn't really appreciate what's implied by some posters in various threads.
When you read that AF should get its act together instead of buying brand new 777 and being dependent on KLM... come on... i mean... that's ridiculous.

Comparing results in regard of the size of the company is not a valid point either, it's useless and can be a bit offensive (especially when stereotypes arrive). Both entities evolve in different countries (with different competitors), they both have (by nature) different cost structures, the scale effects are way different (according to AF and KL websites, 380 planes for AF, 205 for KL)... there are a lot of parameters.
Plus, compare it now and compare it when the economy is good, you may have very different results. When the economy is rough, you might whant to be a smaller company because your cost structure is less important... in this case, the cost structure of the bigger company is a burden. But when the economy is booming, the bigger company will generally have more potential to generate huge profits.

Plus, you can't really trust a CEO when he talks about gain/losses and their origin because he has an agenda doing this, wether it's to optimise taxes costs, to reduce labour costs in a particular country, favor a company over another or whatever he wants...
You can't really trusts books of account either... when a company is in good shape, there result will never be shown as good as they really are... when a company is in a bad shape, there result will be presented better than they really are... that's how accounting works (even if it's not supposed to work this way).

On the other hand, when Pihero says KL no longer exists... he's kind of right... but, in the same way, AF no longer exists either !

In the end, this debate is useless... AFKL makes profits and that's good news... that's one group lead by one CEO, it's a group that have issues to deal with, it's also a group that have things working really fine... in the end, that's the story of pretty good merger... end of story.

[Edited 2011-04-22 01:46:16]

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9631 times:
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I think chauvinistic and cultural pride on both sides makes it difficult to see the real truth:
-AF and KL may have kept their brand, but they are so integrated in the background that it would take a small army of forensic accountants to try and decipher exactly each division's true contribution to the group's revenue.
-An operating income statement isn't a document set in stones that accountants can't play with to get the outcome (legally) most favorable for the group. If they could transfer all the losses incurred due to fuel hedges last year on the French side where corporate taxes are higher (hint), they certainly can transfer profits from the French to the Dutch side where corporate taxes are lower (hint again).

I'm not trying to pretend that everything is fine and dandy with AF, but assuming that operating income statements paint a true and accurate picture of each airline's contribution to the group results is optimistic at best, especially when differences in tax policies alone give the group incentives to maximize one side's profit over the other.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9542 times:

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 16):
15% of us (including me) have affinities with Skyteam, but we ALL fly with KLM on business

Anecdotal follow-up to my previous comment on why most of my collegues don't fly on AF:

One of our guys was flying back from Singapore this morning on AF (13h flight).
He is lifetime Platinum on Skyteam, he checked in online normally (J class fare, J class seat). As he was boarding he was reissued with a boarding pass at the gate... in Y class!

Turns out 6 people were "downgraded" from Business to Economy (despite having paid full business fares!). No compensation offered by AF ("please write to AF in Paris"), one of the pax is a lawyer and is planning to sue.

The KLM duty manager took pity on them, and gave them each a $450 MCO valid on... KLM only.
My collegue says that 777 economy class is pretty uncomfortable (he's 6ft tall), and he didn't sleep. He's just arrived in the office, and he's got a high-level meeting this afternoon!

When AF are bad, they are seriously bad...


User currently offlineEclipz From France, joined Jun 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9524 times:

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 22):
...

What does it have to do with the topic ??


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 23):
What does it have to do with the topic ??

It was in answer to Pihero's comment that the difference in income generated could be down to the more favorable tax and labor laws in The Netherlands.

I think it's down to AF occasionally providing unfortunate service as per my comments, thus killing off its few remaining faithful premium customers. Whilst I don't deny that AF staff have had to make huge sacrifices (pay freezes, voluntary redundancies etc), they've got to preserve the quality of service, or suffer the consequences.


25 JCS : Dear Pihero, sorry to say, but it seems here you are having a hard time discovering that KL in fact does exists and/or even the smallest suggesting t
26 Pihero : Dear JCS No, having worked quite closely with KL, I know exactly what these people are worth and how good they are. What is annoying is the rank bigot
27 Amsterdam : Many pilots worked on the ground and saved a lot of money for the company. And the pilots DID lose money, ´cause they weren´t paid their daily allo
28 larspl : I Though Dutch and French unions made strict rules with AFKL about growth on both sides and what share of the production both companies would be allow
29 Pihero : >Whatever... And your ideas on labour costs are strange. Bye bye. I've just read a wiki article about AFKL capitalisation and found some numbers th
30 bobnwa : I have read many biased remarks her on A net, but this one takes the blue ribbon.
31 airbuster : Pihero as the OP of this thread i wan't to tell you it was never my intention to point a finger at AF crews or personnel as the "bad guys" but more to
32 mow : Have you ever worked for the merged AFKL?[Edited 2011-04-22 04:55:55]
33 netjetsintl : ouch, that wasn't nice man
34 Amsterdam : The Germans have always been smart. They lost two world wars, but again have the strongest and largest economy of Europe and one of the world. It's un
35 FlySSC : Yes, AF costs are higher than KLM's Yes, global taxes in France to finance retirement funds and the Social Security are much higher than in the Nether
36 Post contains images Aviopic : The aviation world isn't about being nice and/or polite and therefor it offers good reading. KLM is probably the last Dutch(or so they think) company
37 Post contains images luckyone : So instead of waging war on each other, this is how Europeans express their displeasure with each other in the modern age??? Reading this thread has b
38 Post contains images Pihero : You'll have to admit that it's quite a bit more entertaining and less bloody than a rteal war. And preferable.
39 Post contains images AeroWesty : What were you expecting, the Spanish Inquisition? I thought so too. It was beginning to read like DL vs. AA or US West vs. US East in parts, but I'm
40 shamrock604 : Oh for god sake! Every time AFKL announces results, we get aN A.net member, usually from the Netherlands who harps on about how all the profits are do
41 Pihero : Someone pmed me to know why I hadn't replied to airbuster's post. Simple : I did not see it, so it's time now. No. I just have no patience for holier-
42 Post contains images Aviopic : What started as a promising thread on this otherwise boring Friday has been turned around in typical a.net style to something way to serious. Sometime
43 BEG2IAH : This has little to do with operations per se, but everything to do with tax rates in the Netherlands (25.5%) and France (33.33%). Hint: transfer pric
44 icna05e : Interesting. TVF crews are French crews, or someone found a way to teach perfect French to them Dutch people. Are they employed on a Dutch contract?
45 WAC : I think the difference in the profits is due to the two different business models that AF and KL operate, AF is by far more reliant on premium busines
46 Pihero : A majority from Britair or Regional; Not Air France. That outfit hasn't done anything to further the AF pilots ' case. but it has been let to proceed
47 LipeGIG : They already installed. The A332 with Premium Y features 209 seats in total. That's is true. Also AF focus on some markets and do not take full advan
48 lexer : I agree with you, that would seem to be a rational strategy, and that would generally be the idea of AF/KL I think. Or I hope. But as we can taste fr
49 Viscount724 : If not, it should be. YUL has very low F class demand (and relatively low J demand compared to YYZ), as indicated by almost all YUL operators droppin
50 Pihero : The second poster I like after the armchair pilot is the armchair airline CEO. Problem for this posdter is that verbosity doesn't mean a thing. Proof
51 lexer : Quite. And so Martinair transformed to focus on cargo exclusively and be competitive again. But you still seem to think that maintaining employment i
52 mow : Never since the merger AF was comfortable with this 'competitor'. MP was an eyesore, an unwanted step-child. Its passenger operations were regarded a
53 Pihero : I see that we still haven't got a proof, just ideas, opinions without any basis; Come on, post the martinair results before and after. Then, compare t
54 miaintl : Why is KL adding all these leisure destinations to its network? Destinations like Havana, Punta Cana and Miami, markets where AF is the strongest. I k
55 larspl : @MIAintl. Most probably KL has gotten some contracts with tour operators for those leisure destinations. The guys at airlines who figure out if a new
56 Pihero : This is a repost as the mods have had a field day . Before this lot goes any further, we (Air France pilots and a lot of employees) have a sizeable vo
57 Burkhard : Spain 30%, UK 28%, so a rather small difference, but still a reason to move profits from IB to BA. Compare: France: 33,3% NL 25.5% Germany 29,8% Swit
58 MH017 : What makes you say that ? There are a lot of low-cost airlines operating from the Netherlands, like Easyjet and Vueling to name a few; not even menti
59 lexer : And where is your proof? I see; the argument is that Air France has historically carried a lot of cargo? That's not rational economic analysis. Try a
60 LJ : What kind of prove do you want? Do you want to see the actual numbers? if so, ask AF/KL as they feel that MP can operated the cargo fleet cheaper? Or
61 Amsterdam : AFKL bought MH for it´s cargo ops. No one here has any financial figures. But just compare the contracts of the pilots as an indication. Do MH pilots
62 Pihero : I really like your facts : Not a hint of a proof, just wishful thinking with a lot of prejudice and anger. My facts are a bit different : We own AFKL,
63 Amsterdam : There you go again with your ´´We own KLM lalalalalala´´ childish comments. Grow up. I said: ''There is a real difference between what the French
64 MH017 : IATA code for Martinair = MP I've seen MA and MH in above replies, which is incorrect and make it confusing: please state correct codes or full names
65 ph-bfa : Seriously, take a chill pill and enjoy life...
66 LJ : I don't know how you calculate how big a certain airline group is in cargo but your math is incorrect (at least not supported by AEA data). AF/KL is
67 mozart : What a highly amusing thread. I have now read through the entire thread, copying many remarks in order to reply to them directly, but in the end they
68 klmcedric : Mozart, You nailed it! And the fact that no more post have been written since yesterday proves that you nailed, because launching arguments against wh
69 mozart : Well thanks for the compliments but I actually also raised some questions to which I'd love to have some answers and insights. There's one observatio
70 Pihero : Again wishful thinking ! Some of us have to work for a living, but i'm back at this keyboard. First comment is about Mozart's and thus joining the fu
71 CuriousFlyer : Wow AF takes quite a beating there. Well Schiphol is not so interesting (not so efficient in my view, lounges not so nice... but it has efficient tran
72 BEG2IAH : mozart, KLM and Air France file tax returns separately in their respective countries. Consolidated (group) tax return is not filed in France, so ther
73 Post contains links Pihero : Forgot to include the different links (not that expect you to listen or read it, but to be on thre recoed as givbing references, as I try to do always
74 SASMD82 : I partly agree with you. However, two comments: Firstly, there always remains a sort of of partritism in the European Countries (look what happened t
75 LJ : [ Your option 3 would be very expensive. AF/KL would have to pay 1 months salary for each year the pilot has worked for KL. This means that you pay fo
76 Post contains links and images mozart : Good evening. It seems that without intention I seem to have picked up numerous of your comments. Well, I'd like to repeat what I said in the intro t
77 mozart : Sorry, just read the contribution by BEH2IAH. Thanks for the clarification.
78 Post contains images BEG2IAH : You are welcome. Let me know when you establish your own multinationals, I can help you with transfer pricing. BEG2IAH
79 mozart : Thanks! Actually quite familiar with that myself in my own (multinational) company, including headaches like which exchange rate to use to pay owners
80 Post contains links and images Pihero : Just that argument, and about *snapshots* : See here see page 12 in which snapshot, AF's operating margin is 8.8 %, adjusted to 9.9.... According to
81 Post contains links mozart : Good, we seem to be down to just a few arguments. Sorry, but you are comparing apples with oranges: that operating margin is only for Q2 of fiscal yea
82 Post contains links Pihero : OK. You win this one ! They were obviously talking about the whole cargo business, as they didn't know anything about historical use of belly holds at
83 mozart : Thanks. That clarifies things and puts a number of posts in a different light. For the sake of practicality I don't quote your entire paragraphs here
84 Pihero : Just my usual rant about two different treatments between virtuous,capitalistic countries and the rest of the world.Takes sometimes a biblical meanin
85 mozart : The point is that the quality of EK and QR makes customers choose them. What you call "behind the facade" is all well and true, but perfectly irrelev
86 Pihero : I have to thank you for tremenduously improving the quality of this thread. Till next time, Kind regards.
87 mozart : Thanks for the great debate. Till next time
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