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LAX Gates Assignment After Tbit Is Done  
User currently offlineCaliboy78 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 75 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6492 times:

I've heard that AA will be getting some of the old TBIT gates once they're done with the construction/expansion anyone knows if there's any truth in this.....Thank You  


TAAke pride on what you do and do it well.
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26028 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6444 times:

As part of a 2009 settlement and lease modification with American Airlines which saw AA vacate the AE box along with hangar and support facilities, there is a clause which would allow AA access to 4 "preferential rights" gates at TBIT depending on what the final built gate count turns out to be.

The big unknown driver here is what the Northside of the airfield will look like in the future, and what taxiways will change, and if a new runway will be built.
At the moment to accommodate any such potential airfield remodels, the north side TBIT concourse is being built with a shorter dogleg end stub (where gates 122/123 are today). Only once final design and gate count become clear and if a full new concourse gets built with excess of 17 gates would AA gain access to the potential 4 gates.

For a recent presentation of north airfield scenarios and how some terminals might need to be shaved (with subsequent loss of gates) see this recent LAWA management presentation:
http://lawa.org/uploadedFiles/board_...n%20Amendment%20Study%20Update.pdf

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCaliboy78 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

Thanx LAXIntl... you are always very infomative... I really appreciate it.....  


TAAke pride on what you do and do it well.
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
The big unknown driver here is what the Northside of the airfield will look like in the future, and what taxiways will change, and if a new runway will be built.
At the moment to accommodate any such potential airfield remodels, the north side TBIT concourse is being built with a shorter dogleg end stub (where gates 122/123 are today). Only once final design and gate count become clear and if a full new concourse gets built with excess of 17 gates would AA gain access to the potential 4 gates.
Quoting Caliboy78 (Thread starter):
I've heard that AA will be getting some of the old TBIT gates once they're done with the construction/expansion anyone knows if there's any truth in this.....

What is unknown? It is all in the Project Description from the Board Report, 09.21.09, pp. 6-7. The Board approved the project based on this description:

"The development of new gates along the west side of the the new concourses includes four gates [4] on the south concourse that would be designed to accommodate ADG VI aircraft such as the A380 and 747-8, providing passenger loading bridges at the fore and aft of the aircraft as well as an additional loading bridge for the upper level of the A380 aircraft. At the north concourse, three gates [3] would be developed on the west side and would be designed to accommodate either two ADG VI aircraft or three ADG V aircraft such as the 787, Boeing 747-400, and Airbus A340. Two new gates [2], one designated to accommodate an ADG IV aircraft and the other to accommodate an ADG VI aircraft, would be constructed west of the existing central core of TBIT, between the new north and south concourses. [Total number of gates on west side is 9.]

As indicated previously, once the new concourse facility is completed, all of the existing south concourse and most (i.e., approximately 75 percent) of the existing north concourse would be demolished. The twelve gates that currently exist along the east side of TBIT would be replaced by nine [9] new gates plus [1] existing Gate 123 which was modified in 2008 to accommodate the A380, and which would be retained. It is currently anticipated that the east side of the north concourse would include one ADG VI gate, two ADG V gates, and two ADGVI/III gates (i.e., such as for Boeing 757 and 737 aircraft and Airbus 320 and 319 aircraft), while the east side of the south concourse would include one ADG VI Gate, three ADG V gates, and one ADG IV/III gate. [Total number of gates on east side is 10.]"

According to the text above, TBIT West (currently under construction) will have 18 new gates (plus an existing one) upon completion in 2013. That means AA gets its gates, 4 of them on a preferential basis.

The most recent fact sheet on the project at laxdevelopment.org confirms this. There it says: "18 new roomier boarding gates/waiting areas with 9 able to accommodate new generation aircraft (Airbus A380 super jumbo jet and Boeing 787 Dreamliner)." In the fact sheet, which was last updated in Jan, there is no mention of the existing gate that is being retained. That may have just been an oversight, since it won't technically be a new gate.

[Edited 2011-04-29 10:18:29]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26028 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

LDV:

You seem to miss a big point. The LAWA board authorized a facility of certain size, however what it being built is one that keeps the North concourse of TBIT is not being fully built out -- A shorter end gate 123 stub is being kept awaiting final determination of the North Airfield configuration. (which likely wont be clear for another year). Even the sizing mix of gates since 2009 has changed.


Per March 2011 LAWA:

The project consists of the construction of new double-loaded North and South Concourses at Tom Bradley International Terminal (TBIT). The full configuration of the concourses will be based upon the approved aircraft parking layout which currently consist of nine (9) planned A380 gates and five (5) Airplane Design Group (ADG) V gates plus three (3) narrow-body gates.

LAWA has not submitted a final design configuration nor schedule update for North Concourse layout pending outcome of the ongoing North Airfield Runway Specific Plan Amendment Study.

Upon completion of the new Bradley West Concourses, this project includes demolition of the existing concourses with the exception of Gate 123 and restores the site to an appropriate state for new apron construction of yet to be determined configuration.




So -- the full proposed layout of the future TBIT is for 17 new gates. Its still unknown however if they will all be built however based on what the airport and community decide to do with the North airfield configuration.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26028 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

p.s. - Its important to note that every North airfield option being reviewed today would impact the end gate 123 area. Either downsizing the gate, or elimination completely.

So its quite probable what is being built on the North today could be the final length of the concourse if 123 gets chopped off ultimately.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineaaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1550 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
So -- the full proposed layout of the future TBIT is for 17 new gates. Its still unknown however if they will all be built however based on what the airport and community decide to do with the North airfield configuration.

And often, its the semantics that ruin whats being conveyed. When the new concourses are opened and the old concourses are demolished (2012/2013), you'll have a facility consisting of 18 gates - 2 of which that are exisiting gates. That count is independent of the outcome of the North Complex decision.

When that decision is rendered, the determination will cause the gate count to either grow (full build out of the North Concourse with gates on both sides), or shrink (the elimination of the two gates being incorporated into the current design.)

What's now termed as "full build-out" is predicated upon the 2005 FAA approved masterplan alternative "D" which moves the runways south. With that alternative, the building restriction line (BRL) is 400' south of its current position - or, if superimposed over a current map, running through TBIT at the gate 122/123 area.

With regard to the American Airlines agreement - one of my LAWA cantacts is suggesting the current agreement may be revisited independently of a North runway decision.



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
So -- the full proposed layout of the future TBIT is for 17 new gates. Its still unknown however if they will all be built however based on what the airport and community decide to do with the North airfield configuration.


No, the full proposed layout was for 19 gates, or that is what it was originally according to the board report that I cited. If it has changed since then, perhaps you can cite the board report where the change was described and approved. As of Jan 11 of this year, when the fact sheet I cited above was revised, LAWA was still advertising that there would be 18 new gates.

You have yet to explain the discrepancy between your number (17) and LAWA's own official number.

[Edited 2011-04-29 12:07:44]

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Quoting aaway (Reply 6):
And often, its the semantics that ruin whats being conveyed. When the new concourses are opened and the old concourses are demolished (2012/2013), you'll have a facility consisting of 18 gates - 2 of which that are exisiting gates. That count is independent of the outcome of the North Complex decision.

This is progress. So, I wasn't making that number up, though I am confused now by the addition of one existing gate for a total of 2. (I thought it was just one. The Board Report I cited above only mentions one.)

Quoting aaway (Reply 6):
When that decision is rendered, the determination will cause the gate count to either grow (full build out of the North Concourse with gates on both sides), or shrink (the elimination of the two gates being incorporated into the current design.)

Indeed, in the Study that LAXintl recently cited, the one predicated on reconfiguring the runways/taxi-ways within existing boundaries, TBIT loses anywhere from 1 to 2 gates on the north concourse.

Quoting aaway (Reply 6):
With regard to the American Airlines agreement - one of my LAWA cantacts is suggesting the current agreement may be revisited independently of a North runway decision.

I wonder why.


User currently onlineaaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1550 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
This is progress. So, I wasn't making that number up, though I am confused now by the addition of one existing gate for a total of 2. (I thought it was just one. The Board Report I cited above only mentions one.)

When the new North opens, current gate 122 becomes gate 135, the current 123A becomes 137, the current 123B becomes 139. Now, in fairness to the other poster, and in consideration of full disclosure, there is a possibility that 123B/139 will be deleted due its constricted footprint and severely raised pavement abutting its western flank. But, the current planning is for 18 active gates.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
With regard to the American Airlines agreement - one of my LAWA cantacts is suggesting the current agreement may be revisited independently of a North runway decision.

I wonder why.

Well AA feels screwed. As you mentioned, the original planning horizon was indeed for 19 gates in 2012/2013 - the threshold of the AA/.LAWA agreement. For some reason, I don't think AMR's corp. real estate folks considered the possibility of a downsizing of the gate count. The lease and expansion of the Eagle terminal is mitigation - somewhat.

[Edited 2011-04-29 12:56:03]


With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26028 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 7):
You have yet to explain the discrepancy between your number (17) and LAWA's own official number.

Simply put - LAWA, nor anyone knows what the future final number will be.

What they are building today is a 17-gate new concourses. Once they get there, and if the North Airfield study is complete they will either stop and be done, or continue the build out its length Northward. Considering that all the Northside study options will either require a reconfiguration or elimination of current gate(s), it could very well be that 17 being built will be it.

Btw - 17 number and breakdown on types of gates that I listed in reply 4 IS LAWA's from the project management update provided in March 2011.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
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