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DFW - The Potential U.S. Equal Of DXB?  
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10162 times:

Dallas/ Fort Worth International airport is the 8th largest airport in the world. More than 55 million passengers in total makes it bigger than Dubai International. Dubai was the 13th busiest airport in the world. But in international traffic Dubai is the 5th largest airport in the world, and DFW is not even among the 30 busiest when it comes to international traffic. Is there a way to change this?

DFW has enough space, Texas has a low state tax, DFW is in the middle of the U.S. offering many connections. It could serve as a world Hub. There are only some islands between Australia and Madagascar that cannot be reached from DFW.

Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?
Or how about China to South America through DFW?
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

Edit to change DUB to DXB

[Edited 2011-04-29 15:29:23]


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10156 times:

DUB is Dublin, Ireland

DXB is Dubai, UAE


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10102 times:

US immigration laws for transit passengers are the first thing that spring to mind as a problem.

Edit: Subject-verb agreement is so win.

[Edited 2011-04-29 15:20:42]

User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10068 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

Well QF starts direct SYD-DFW in just over 2 weeks (DFW-BNE-SYD on the return), so in theory it could be used as a one stop trip to many places in Europe if you flew QF then AA.... But why would you do that when you could fly quicker through SIN or DXB from Australia?


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10070 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
DFW - The Potential U.S. Equal Of DUB?  

Tap the brakes there!   

I do believe that we - being DFW - were here first. Perhaps DUB is the Middle Eastern equivalent of DFW?   

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

It's a longer distance:

SYD-DFW-LHR = 11,500 nm
SYD-SIN-LHR = 9,275 nm

There's also more OD traffic between SYD-SIN as that route has existed for decades. OTOH, SYD-DFW is an all new city pair just now being launched in 2011.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or how about China to South America through DFW?

Indeed, this is a huge opportunity for DFW.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

Easier to just fly direct. Those routes don't cross over North America, so DFW is just out of the way. Range isn't an issue from South America to Europe, so no need to make a stop.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10066 times:

Worst Title Ever.

Aer Lingus T2 and American's home hub, hmmmmmmmm


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10046 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

Why take the long way around?

Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
US immigration laws for transit passengers is the first thing that springs to mind as a problem.

  

However, as you probably know, QF has started a non-stop SYD-DFW service.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10030 times:

I think you'll probably see a few new ULH routes when the 787s finally come on line. I suppose a different thread could speculate on those, and some already have. QF is starting DFW-SYD next month of course. My opinion is this route will end up as A380 or 787 at some point - which I think many would agree with.

As for connecting S. America and Europe via DFW, its closer to go though MIA (or any Eastern city). Don't forget the west coast of S. America really lines up closer to the east coast of N. America. Going via DFW is a further distance:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-dfw...-mia-gig,+lhr-mia-scl,+lhr-mia-lim

I would add Texas has NO state income tax. It does seem IAH gets the bigger portion of foreign traffic - oil company HQ and all.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10036 times:

May I introduce you to ATL?  


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9929 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

2,000 nm farther distance
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yssy-kd...l%0D%0Ayssy-omdb-egll&MS=wls&DU=nm

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or how about China to South America through DFW?

Total distance is near equal - but leg lengths are less equal
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=saez-kd...a%0D%0Asaez-klax-zbaa&MS=wls&DU=nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sbgl-kd...d%0D%0Asbgl-ksfo-zspd&MS=wls&DU=nm

This AA flights between South America and KDFW make this the most likely distance.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

Way, way too far out of the way. Brazil to Europe is normally non-stop for most routes.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sbgl-kd...w-lfpg%0D%0Asbgl-lfpg&MS=wls&DU=nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=saez-kd...f%0D%0Asaez-sbbr-eddf&MS=wls&DU=nm


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Dallas/ Fort Worth International airport is the 8th largest airport in the world.

By land mass, yes.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
More than 55 million passengers in total makes it bigger than Dubai International.

Although DXB has been around longer than DFW, Dubai was virtually nonexistent as a city until very recently.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
But in international traffic Dubai is the 5th largest airport in the world, and DFW is not even among the 30 busiest when it comes to international traffic. Is there a way to change this?

Dubai is a small city, in a tiny country of hardly 8 million people, with very little O&D, and is a hub for an airline comprised ENTIRELY of long-haul fleet. By contrast, DFW is a much larger city, in a huge country with over 300 million residents, boasts a much larger O&D percentage, and is a hub for an airline whose largest jet is a 772 (ignore the 5 77Ws). DFW sees CRJs, MD-80s, 737-800s, and a few widebody aircraft on a daily basis. Compare that to 343s, 77Ls, 773s, A380s, that go in and out of DXB, and you're comparing a monkey to a hippo.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
DFW has enough space, Texas has a low state tax, DFW is in the middle of the U.S. offering many connections. It could serve as a world Hub. There are only some islands between Australia and Madagascar that cannot be reached from DFW.
DFW's midcontinent location works well for domestic connections; however, it works against it on an international realm. The only real advantage DFW has is Asia/Japan - South America, but plenty of other hubs can accomplish that. When I fly ORD-Europe, the journey feels significantly shorter both to and from than when I fly from DFW, and the distance between DFW and ORD is hardly 802 nm. Even a flight to London, the nearest European city from DFW, can be rough.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

The South America-Europe market is well served by a good mix of European and Latin American carriers. There are no reasons to back-track through DFW, unless you are referring to cities in Northern Central America or Mexico where the flight times to DFW are less than 3 hrs. PAX incoming from 8-10 hr flights from SCL, GRU, EZE, and GIG do not want to wait 8 additional hours before hopping on a 10 hr flight to LHR, FRA, CDG, or MAD when they can take a 14 hr. nonstop to any of those cities at much more convenient times.

[Edited 2011-04-29 15:20:58]


next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9836 times:
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Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
DFW has enough space, Texas has a low state tax, DFW is in the middle of the U.S. offering many connections. It could serve as a world Hub. There are only some islands between Australia and Madagascar that cannot be reached from DFW.

Speaking of Dubai, EK flies into nearby IAH along with QR, SQ and AF . DFW and IAH are both fortress hubs only 195 nm. apart -- perhaps too close together for duplicate services -- though both are served by BA, KL, and LH.

DFW has KE and will have QF (starting May 16th) . And DFW has tons of domestic traffic -- that seems to be its strong suit.

[Edited 2011-04-29 15:58:34]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7605 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9837 times:

The reason I dont think DFW (or any US airport) can be the equivalent is the US immigration laws. The United States requires a transit visa from almost everyone minus the fully developed Western and Asian countries.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9818 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

2,000 nm farther distance

NZ seems to do okay on the AKL-LAX-LHR route, it's not even 300 miles longer than via HKG. I would suspect the disadvantage of substituting DFW for LAX would be California probably being a higher draw as a destination from New Zealand than Texas.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

DFW, or any other airport in the U.S., cannot ever take on the role of DXB. It's the long way around for most of the trips that most of the world's population outside North and Central America will make.

Instead, it will just have to keep doing what it (and IAH and ORD) does: handling the staggering volume of North American O&D traffic.

[Edited 2011-04-29 15:33:06]

User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9678 times:

Seems like an odd comparison. There are more people in the US than there are in the entire region served by DXB. Certainly more people flying. Thinking of it that way and ignoring political borders, DFW and DXB are serving exactly the same function -- a connecting point for their region. It's not DFW's fault that their "region" is primarily 3 countries instead of 30.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9633 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
DXB is Dubai, UAE
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 4):
Tap the brakes there!
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
Worst Title Ever.

Sorry for the Typo. It is DFW vs DXB we are talking about.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
By contrast, DFW is a much larger city, in a huge country with over 300 million residents, boasts a much larger O&D percentage

And by having a larger O&D percentage, it should be eaier for DFW to gain international traffic more so than for DXB.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
The reason I dont think DFW (or any US airport) can be the equivalent is the US immigration laws. The United States requires a transit visa from almost everyone minus the fully developed Western and Asian countries.

I was not aware of this. Will this change in the near future? That certainly makes it more difficult for DFW and othe U.S Hub to get their share of international connecting traffic.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 4):
It's a longer distance:

But so is many popular routes from Europe to Asia and Europe to Africa, and still many use Emirates, Qatar or Ethiad.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 4):
Easier to just fly direct

Of course. But the same could be said about EK and I am sure most routes could work better as a nonstop, than through DXB.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
By land mass, yes.

According to Airports Council International DWF is the eight largest in the world by passenger traffic in 2010.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9613 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

The South America-Europe market is well served by a good mix of European and Latin American carriers. There are no reasons to back-track through DFW, unless you are referring to cities in Northern Central America or Mexico where the flight times to DFW are less than 3 hrs. PAX incoming from 8-10 hr flights from SCL, GRU, EZE, and GIG do not want to wait 8 additional hours before hopping on a 10 hr flight to LHR, FRA, CDG, or MAD when they can take a 14 hr. nonstop to any of those cities at much more convenient times.

To convince anyone to fly up to about 70% further you would have to offer a much lower fare than for the many nonstops and connections at hubs that aren't so far out of the way. Not a very smart way to generate profitable yields.

Examples:
GRU-LHR nonstop: 5095 nm
GRU-DFW-LHR: 8569 nm

EZE-MAD nonstop: 5433 nm
EZE-DFW-MAD: 8908 nm

From points on the west coast of South America like LIM, it's still at least 25% further via DFW. Even the most westerly point in South America is several hundred miles east of DFW.


User currently offlineRAGAZZO777 From Uruguay, joined Jul 2010, 585 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?
Or how about China to South America through DFW?
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

Interesting thread. I think NZ to Europe through DFW could work, but that would mean AA flying to Auckland and AA don't even fly to Australia.

China to South America (and viceversa) through DFW could work, too, but AFAIK there are no direct flights from DFW to mainland China. Also, AA is expanding its services to China from ORD and LAX only. Further, AA's South American network from DFW is somehow limited.

Finally, DFW is way out of the main routes between South America and Europe. When flying from South America to Europe via the US people usually do so via MIA or EWR/JFK.

Regards,



JESÚS, TE AMO !!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2490 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9492 times:

Both airports are pretty equal if you ask me....a hub is a hub is a hub. Where the passengers are originating or destined to is a secondary matter.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Is there a way to change this?

No. DXB is a global hub, DFW will never be a global hub like Dubai...it is first and foremost a domestic hub.

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 15):
It's not DFW's fault that their "region" is primarily 3 countries instead of 30.

Bingo. The passenger demographics is the key issue here.....and DXB/DFW are worlds apart on that issue, through no fault of DFW.

As for the much anticipated QF flight to DFW...i fail to see how that route will bring in money...simply too long for a B744ER to fly profitably....a 77L would have been better (assuming they get approval for 207 min+ ETOPS) but QF doesn't have any on order...

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-04-29 16:20:17]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineSplitterz From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9344 times:

Doesn't DEN have even more land mass and expansion capability then most other airport including DFW?

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9239 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Dallas/ Fort Worth International airport is the 8th largest airport in the world.

By land mass, yes.

Actually, no. DMM, DEN, and YMX are all larger in terms of land mass than DFW.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9156 times:

For the South America-Asia flying MIA would work better than DFW in my opinion. With flights to many places such as CLO, BSB, MAO, LPB, LIM, and other destinations that are only served from MIA. Although mainlaind China is a long way to go because of its range NRT and ICN can work to be able to provide connections from points in Asia to South America. For example: A person can fly HKG-NRT (JL) NRT-MIA (AA/JL whoever starts it) and then MIA-BSB. Much easier then having to connect in 3 places!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9156 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Dallas/ Fort Worth International airport is the 8th largest airport in the world.

By land mass, yes.

Actually, no. DMM, DEN, and YMX are all larger in terms of land mass than DFW.

Is that still true for YMX? They returned much of the land to the original owners after they closed YMX to passenger service and killed any of their grandiose plans for further expansion.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2865 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9061 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Dallas/ Fort Worth International airport is the 8th largest airport in the world.

Yes it is very large, but we should clarify by saying that it is the world's 8th busiest airport in terms of passenger traffic (behind only ATL, PEK, ORD, LHR, HND, LAX, and CDG).

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
More than 55 million passengers in total makes it bigger than Dubai International. Dubai was the 13th busiest airport in the world.

True, but Dubai is growing at a very rapid pace as the hometown duo of Emirates and FlyDubai continue to feverishly expand. DFW is growing (QF and NK coming to town, several new Eagle routes), but nowhere near as fast. I imagine DXB will leapfrog past them within 2-3 years.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
But in international traffic Dubai is the 5th largest airport in the world, and DFW is not even among the 30 busiest when it comes to international traffic. Is there a way to change this?

No, but DFW lies in the heart of one of the world's largest countries (in terms of land mass and population), whilst DXB serves a country so small that domestic air service does not even exist. Routes like DFW-ANC, DFW-HNL, and DFW-SJU are "domestic", but just as long or longer than major EK routes from DXB into Europe, India, etc.

No, not really any way to change the nature of today's international borders!

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
DFW has enough space

Doesn't matter. Dammam (Saudi Arabia) has far more space than Dubai does, but that does mean it has evolved into a major international hub like neighbors DOH, AUH, and DXB have.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Texas has a low state tax

I understand taxes can sometimes make a difference in Europe (where people cross national borders to avoid steep taxes), but I don't think that matters in the U.S.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
DFW is in the middle of the U.S. offering many connections.

Nearly all of them domestic. You must remember that DFW serves a VERY different purpose than DXB (or HKG, SIN, even AMS for that matter). Most transit pax have very short layovers at DFW (i.e. 45 minutes-2 hours) given the high frequency, short haul nature of the flights. Someone flying TUS-DFW-ATL or even a longer segment like SEA-DFW-FLL won't be spending much time or money in the airport. Most people just sit at the gates, and at most buy a cheap sandwich or magazine.

When it comes to DXB, layovers can easily be 2-3 hours or even longer, giving people much more time to eat, shop, etc. Many actually want (and pay for) nicer amenities like fancy restaurants, full-service lounges, en suite hotels, luxury shops, and other unique high end stuff you'd never see at a U.S. airport given the different nature of our pax and operations.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
It could serve as a world Hub. There are only some islands between Australia and Madagascar that cannot be reached from DFW.

It already is a world hub, with extensive connections through North, Central, and South America as well as notable links to Europe, Asia, and soon Australia. You can reach any city of global importance nonstop - or with one quick transfer - when flying to, from, or through DFW.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Why not fly from Australia or NZ to Europe through DFW?

People flying on that route much prefer flying Westward via Asia or the Middle East. Even SFO/LAX don't see many connections like that, and those airports actually have better links to Europe than DFW.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or how about China to South America through DFW?

Possible, but DFW would need to have flights to China first. I don't think that market is all that big anyway, and neither Chinese nor South Americans can transit the U.S. without a visa (many would prefer going through Canada or someplace like DXB).

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Or South America to Europe through DFW?

Way out of the way. South America-Europe is best served nonstop, or if absolutely necessary via MIA, ATL, IAD, or JFK.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
25 EK413 : Are you still required to pick-up your luggage and have it rescreened while transiting via the states??? 'Will' commence serving DFW as of the 16th o
26 StarAC17 : Not just that but even if you need no visa what so ever you still have to clear US immigration and customs and recheck your bags. This is a hassle an
27 Flighty : Most of the world's journeys are within Afro-Eurasia or between that and North America. DFW is not useful for any of the above. So, sorry. It is a no.
28 EK413 : Boy that really sucks doesn't it... I remember transit VIA SFO in 2002 & having to clear customs, pickup my luggage, screen my bags and check-in
29 AADC10 : DFW can never be similar to DXB because the countries they are in are very different. If DFW was the only international airport in the country and it
30 jimbobjoe : Hopefully one day, but it'll require an act of Congress, and Congress is still in post 9/11 mode. Even when individuals don't need a visa, they still
31 Airvan00 : A lot of us don't.
32 GSPflyer : UA/CO will fly AKL-IAH when the 787's arrive....should be one of the first 787 routes IIRC. If it's timed right, pax could connect fo the large Europ
33 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : Fine, but DXB is still has a much larger international presence, which is what the OP is getting at. Neither airport is the equivalent of the other i
34 Post contains images OyKIE : I see that few routes would work if you will travel 70% furter. But 25% could work. Then the airlines service, the transferpoint is more important. S
35 tayser : not only that, you have 5 choices of airlines from most of the large Australian cities with one stop services to not just LHR, but other European cit
36 f35 : Dear mods, this is exactly the reason we need a "like" button!
37 goblin211 : I haven't been to DXB but I think more routes could be served from DFW. I never thought they reached their full potential. However, flights to Austral
38 rampart : Draw a 8000mile Great Circle ring around DXB, or any other Middle Eastern city for that matter. You reach just about everything with a human settlemen
39 nascarnut : Unless AA start serving Aust/NZ from DFW, the UA/CO AKL-IAH may prove whether it is viable to use IAH or DFW as an Intercontinental Hub. IAH will offe
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