FLY777UA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4018 times:
October 19, 1999
UNITED AIRLINES PRESS RELEASE
CHICAGO, October 19, 1999 - UAL Corporation (NYSE: UAL) announced today that it and Deutsche Lufthansa AG have agreed to provide a financial package of up to Cdn$730 million for Air Canada and will amend their alliance agreements to solidify Air Canada's place in Star Alliance, a partnership of the world's leading airlines.
UAL's investment will be made through the purchase of Air Canada non-voting convertible preferred shares, an aircraft sale and leaseback agreement and a guaranteed credit facility.
"We're pleased to announce this agreement which supports Canada's leading airline," said James E. Goodwin, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of UAL Corporation and United Airlines. "Air Canada is an extremely important member of Star Alliance. This agreement will ensure that the customers we mutually serve will continue to benefit from the extensive travel network created by our alliance."
Under the agreement announced today, UAL and Lufthansa will:
· Through a joint venture, take up Air Canada's newly-issued perpetual convertible preferred shares in the amount of Cdn$230 million. The joint venture will be held 60 per cent by Lufthansa and 40 per cent by UAL.
· Amend their code-share and other agreements with Air Canada by, among other things, extending their term until the end of 2009.
In addition, UAL Corporation will:
· Purchase from, and lease back to, Air Canada three Airbus A330 aircraft, for which UAL will invest approximately Cdn$190 million.
· Commit to guarantee a Cdn$160 million credit facility for Air Canada. Lufthansa also plans to make a credit facility available for Air Canada.
UAL Corporation is the holding company whose primary subsidiary is United Airlines. United is the world's largest airline, and the largest majority-employee owned company in the United States. It operates more than 2,400 daily flights on a route network that spans the globe.
Star Alliance was established in May, 1997. It brings together some of the world's leading airlines in a partnership designed to provide customers with the benefits of global reach and seamless travel. Current members are: Air Canada, Air New Zealand, All Nippon Airways, Ansett Australia, Lufthansa, Scandinavian Airlines System - SAS, Thai Airways International, United Airlines and Varig Brazilian Airlines. Joining Star in future will be the Austrian Airlines Aviation Group, Mexicana Airlines and Singapore Airlines
DOES THIS MEAN THEY MAY PURCHASE A330'S FOR THEM SELVES?
C-GAGN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
No, UAL would purchice the equity in the Air Canada A330s and then lease them back to Air Canada. They would never leave AC control though. It's kinda like putting a 2nd mortgage on your home, except that we're talking widebody airliners and UA's the bank.
Cx 839 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3422 times:
What I think in my opinion is that, United is trying to get A330 into their fleet for a short term. If they are satistfy with the A330 on their domestic routes, I am sure they will purchase some A330s for their own fleet.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3400 times:
This is a leaseback transaction. UA is leasing the 330's to Air Canada, and although UAL will own them, they will not operate them. It is a paper transaction allowing Air Canada to take its equity out of the airplanes to use it for its takeover bid for Canadian Airlines. It is only a paper transaction, as AC will operate the aircraft and UA will never see them other than on paper.
GoA340 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 3403 times:
Why are you so anti-A330? The purpose of the plane is different than the B777. I am sure UNited already being an Airbus customer might look to the A330-200/300 to replace DC-10s, and even B767s. Obviously the A330 is more modern than the 767 and provide some capacity increase without being as large as the 777. United can also take advantage of Airbus communality. I dont know what their comment was when they first purchased the 777 but that was 5 years ago, and things change....specially when the A330-200 came out to be such a superior performer.
Ducker From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 137 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3357 times:
1) The sale/leaseback of the A330's gives Air Canada cash up front, which may give AC the capital to purchase Canadian and startup capital to start that new low-cost airline based in Hamilton, Ontario. Also, maybe Canada has rules which don't allow foreign interests to own more than a certain amount in Canadian carriers (>25% for US carriers). This transaction would avoid such a rule.
2) I would guess that UA would probably purchase the 767-400, due to some commality with the 762/763. But, UA would probably compete the 764 against the A330. Competetion will result in the best deal for the carrier, and maybe Airbus will offer a superior bid.
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3346 times:
I'm not anti-A330 at all...just saying that "UNITED WILL NEVER OPERATE THE A330". The A330 is a great plane---I would love to be in one right now, however UA is trying to REDUCE FLEET TYPES, not add more on ! The A330-300 and 777 are DIRECT COMPETITORS-- they compete in the same market. The A330-200 and the 777 both have different markets, yes, but when the time comes for UA to replace any planes with the A330-200 capacity, the A332 will be a dinosaur!
Phil330 From Australia, joined May 2011, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3348 times:
If UAL are trying to reduce fleet types as you say, then the A330 is positively just what they need as it essentially comes under the A320 fleet. In our airline we chose the A330 over the 777 as we already operate a large fleet of A320s and A321s. Pilots can fly all three, we treat it as one fleet, and is saves us $750,000 per aircraft per year in training, maintenance etc..
I in no way am against the 777, I have flown Boeings in my career and personally prefer them, but UA might just see the financial benfits of the A330-300, particularly the fact that is costs less to operate than the 777.
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3330 times:
Cockpit and FBW wise, yes the A330 could be considered part of the A320 family, however most everything else onboard would make it part of a new family--Family A330.
I would have loved to see UA with an all-Airbus fleet with the A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, and 340 if Airbus had only come out with them about 10 years before their true rollout!
Cx 839 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
I agree with the fact that United might add a few A330 in their fleet. Since United has the money and commitment in their fleet, Why not add one or two A330s in it?
I think the 777 is the greatest commerical aircraft invented after the 747, but if you were to worry that United were not going to add any A330's, is not really impossible of happening. United has already a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing, if they were to decide on ordering the coming B767-400, I think they will look at options like order A330s in their fleet.
TP343 From Brazil, joined May 1999, 312 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3316 times:
Well, once again this UAL and the A330 debate!
FLY777UAL: for the third (or forth?) time I have to say in this forum: don't say that UAL will never operate A330s. I don't have a crystal ball, but I can see that you may have a surprise!
The first aspect here is this: the A330 is not a B777. To choose one doesn't exclude the other! These planes can be used for similar proposes, but they are not similar at all. While the 772 seat normally 290-310 passengers, a 332 can barely seat 230. Take a look at the number of carriers worldwide opperating both types in fleet (A330/A340 and B777): Cathay, Emirates, Korean, some Chinese, Singapore and Thai, just to name the most important.
A second aspect is that, as Phil330 said, to have an A320/A330/A340 fleet is the same than to have just one type. Although their serve different markets and proposes, they share the same cockpit, the same parts, the same procedures, etc. As UAL already have an expanding A319/320 fleet, to put in service an A330 fleet would benefit of the total commonality with them. So, the 'ENTIRE PURPOSE of reducing the fleet-types' you described would NOT be defeated. On the contrary! It would be reinforced!
The others aspects I consider relevant are in my previous repliy to the topic "Airbus widebodies in USA" id=45185 (posted by LH423 on 09-13-99).
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3302 times:
"While the 772 seat normally 290-310 passengers, a 332 can barely seat 230"....That's why in my posts while comparing the 777 and the A330 I said the "A330-300", and stated that the 777 and A330-200 have two completely different roles.
"[The A320, A330, A340] share the same cockpit, the same parts, the same procedures, etc"....cockpit, yes, but when was the last time that you saw wing parts, tail parts, or even gear parts from an A320 being fitted onto and A340? Even inside the planes are completely different (referring to the A320 fam. vs A330/340), with different seats (the 330/340 are one inch smaller width-wise), different o.h. bins, different doors (added cost right there---training and certifing 25,000 FA's on that door), etc. They are simply not the same plane! Aside from the cockpit, they are pretty much as different as night and day.
I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful (even though it may seem so), but the A330 just will not be in UA's fleet (as a result of an order). If that time comes where a 230-seat (in three classes) aircraft is needed, the 767-400 is well ahead of the game at UA...a much better option than the A330-200.
Aspen1 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3293 times:
I see it a little bit differently. first off. the 767-400 is so much bigger than the 767-200 and 767-300 and doesnt have the same range. Next the 767-400 holds 245 while the 767-200 holds 181 in 3 class, and the 767=300 holds 218. why would united want to replace a 181 seater with a 245 seater? does that make any sense? By the time united starts replacing the 767's another typle of plane like an a330-100 might be around. In the late 70's when united and american asked boeing to make a 200 seater wide body, boeing created a whole new airplane. what makes you think airbus or even boeing wont do that?
Cx 839 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3285 times:
Well......I don't understand why we are still arguing. United already has a fleet of A319, A320. Since the cockpit is the same like you were saying as the A330, maybe United will use some of those piolts and use them on the fleet. As for 772, some of them can be used for trans-atlantic or trans-pacific routes. Even if they say they are trying to decrease the type of aircraft in their fleet, I think the A330 is a can't miss airplane.
So lets stop arguing and see what happens!!!!!
Pandora From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3294 times:
United operating A330s! No way man!!
If Unted is looking at a DC-10 replacement, it's the 777. And they soon will consider the 767-400, because it fits well in the flett, and 777 pilots can fly them as well. so i don't see why UA will consider A330-200s, unless they are taking the 320 into account.
TP343 From Brazil, joined May 1999, 312 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (13 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3278 times:
"While the 772 seat normally 290-310 passengers, a 332 can barely seat 230"....That's why in my posts while comparing the 777 and the A330 I said the "A330-300", and stated that the 777 and A330-200 have two completely different roles.'
Agreed! I share your opinion: thinking on UAL fleet and routing system, the A330-300s don't make sense... but to operate 332s does!
"[The A320, A330, A340] share the same cockpit, the same parts, the same procedures, etc'....cockpit, yes, but when was the last time that you saw wing parts, tail parts, or even gear parts from an A320 being fitted onto and A340? Even inside the planes are completely different (referring to the A320 fam. vs A330/340), with different seats (the 330/340 are one inch smaller width-wise), different o.h. bins, different doors (added cost right there---training and certifing 25,000 FA's on that door), etc. They are simply not the same plane! Aside from the cockpit, they are pretty much as different as night and day."'
Let's talk a bit about the points you rose:
Wings: Let's see the Airbus side: of course the wing of the 320 family is different of the one on the 330/340 family. But, although they have different dimensions, they do share similar procedures on maintenance and construction shape. The fuel tanks, the pumps, the electric circuits, and all the rest share the position, same technical logic and maintenance procedures. Now, let's see the Boeing side: don't forget that the wing of the 764 is unique. No other Boeing or whatever plane features that kind of wing. Final result on wing question: I think Airbus wins, but the minimum I can see here is a draw.
Tail: once again, the dimensions are different but the construction shape are equivalent (330 with 320 and 764 with 767/777). Once again, a draw.
Landing gear: I don't have information and I appreciate anyone could add it here.
Seats: this decision is up to each airline! This point doesn't give advantage on commonality to any product in the world. In this point, a TAM A330-200 is different than a Swissair A330-200!
Over-head bins: I see you have never entered an A330/340! The interior of an Airbus single-aisle is exactly equal to the one found inside an Airbus twin-aisle. The only difference is that on A330/340 there is an additional central over head bin. And talking about interiors, I remember you that the WC, galleys, windows, lights over head, a/c systems and commands, entertainment system capability, electric and hydraulic installations, etc found on the A330 are exactly equal to those on the other Airbuses (except the old A300 and A310). They do use the same parts and are displayed on the same positions. Also, the maintenance of it is equal on both single/twin-aisles. The family concept made by Airbus goes much further than to just share the cockpit! On the other side, a 764 offers the same o/h bins found on the 777 (but not the same found on 757s and 762s/763s). Result: once again -at least- a draw.
Doors: Airbus has three doors models. The doors of an A319/320 are INDEED equal to those found on the A330/340 (except the emergency exits over wings). By the way, FLY777UAL, F/A are not retarded! To open a door, all one must do is check the pressure level, press a button (and a security code?), rotate a bar and push to door to outside. Even myself (an ordinary passenger!), I know how to open a door! Excuse me but an airline will not spend more or less on "How to open a door" classes and speeches if the plane is a 764 or a 332! Even if the fleet is exclusively composed by another model/manufacturer! Result: although I don't know which is the door model adopted by Boeing (all I know is that the 777 door is also unique inside Boeing family), at minimum this is irrelevant and in maximum, Airbus wins.
Aspen1: exactly! To say that the 764 would replace the 762 and 763 in UAL fleet is false! The 764 would be too big for many routes flown by UAL! Thinking about Latin America, there simply would not have any difference to operate a 764 or a 777. On the other side, a 762 or a 763 do difference! The planes that should replace the 762 and 763 are those in NG versions or the A330-100/A330-200. If Airbus launches the A330-100, the A330-200 will become even more attractive for UAL. UAL would have a whole family from the A319-A320-A321 (standard and/or HGW version)-A331-A332, the 777 family, and the 744 family = 3 families. If UAL choose the 764, unless Boeing offer a huge and attractive modernisation pack (for cockpit, systems, interiors, etc.) for the 752s, 762s and 763s in UAL fleet, UAL will have 4 families: the A319-A320, the old B757-767, the new B764-B777, plus the 744.
My message can be resumed by this phrase: don't exclude so easily the possibility of seeing an A330 fleet in United colours in the future! I don't have a crystal ball; therefore I can't assure you that this will happen. Actually, nobody from here can. All I can tell you is that I consider the possibilities high and I have already for many times explained why. It just makes sense to me!
CX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4385 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (13 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3271 times:
So now we are talking about paper A330s that United will be interest in while the 767-400ER and the 767-200NG are currently heading down the aisles at Everett? While I am not going to say that United will never operate the A330, it seems like a very long shot. The 777 is the competitor to the A330-300 so that cancels it out. The A330-200 does serve a different market but why add another airframe to the mix when you already have 767s out the you know what. This is kind of like the BA A318 order. The A330 is fighting an uphil battle just like the 717.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (13 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 3275 times:
I never said the FA's were retarded ! (although some act as they are!) In operating a door, a lot more goes into it than just "lifting the handle". I'm talking some fairly complicated door arming/disarming procedures, double checking methods, gust lock pins, slide pressure gages, survival kit hookups, false latching, troubleshooting, etc. It is pretty costly to drag FA's into the training center, produce videos on normal and emergency operations for each door, then have each go through the FAA certification process.
As far as the seats go--yea I do realize that it's up to the airline, however UA's YC seats on the A320/319 are 18" wide...ALL of them... On the A330, the fuselage only allows for each seat to be 17" wide...ALL of them...that's one problem right there...
The overhead bins are the same...on the sides of the aircraft, however the centerline bins are unique to the A330/340, with different styles, parts, and operations...
You're more than correct in saying that the 767-400 will not replace the 767-200, however the 767-300 might be a different story. In UA's seating arrangement, the -200 (seating 168) holds 40 fewer than the -300 (seating 206), but the -400 (seating 220), holds only 14 more than the -300 (in 3-UA Class layout), thus making it an ideal replacement for the -300. When the -200's need to be replaced (in about 10 years), the most likely candidate would be the 767-200NG with the same 777 and 767-400 interior, or possibly the 757-300.
William From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (13 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3260 times:
Since we have gone over this more times than neccessary. Then please tell me,since we have some UA insiders here,where are the A330s going? UA is not in the leasing business,and they sure as heck not going to park them in the California desert.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (13 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3261 times:
The reason UA is buying them is simple. There is a hostile bid out on Air Canada that would take Air Canada out of the Star Alliance and would transfer it to Oneworld. UA does not want this, and wants to help Air Canada. It is therefore financing Air Canada's A330's freeing up capital for Air Canada's counterbid to buy Canadi>n airlines. The A330 aircraft will remain in Air Canada's fleet, they have just been refinanced by UAL to free up Air Canada's capital to finance a plan which would keep Air Canada in Star Alliance. UAL will not ever see the A330's, they are participating in a paper transaction assisting Air Canada in its bid to buy Canadi>n airlines. Got it?
25 FLY777UAL: UA is doing a "sale and leaseback" move with AC, as it will provide them with some temporary cash to possibly buy more Canadian Airlines stock. FLY777
26 Sp-deluxe: Are the UA 777 the extended range version or not. If they were UA could use the A330 on shorter routes where the 777 er would not be that economical.
27 GoA340: Reducing types in the fleet, that is why I was referring to reduce DC-10s with the A330-200, the communality between the different 767 types (200/300/
28 FLY777UAL: So anyway... UA operates both variants of 777's, both domestically and internationally. By having both of these types, and also by having the 777's fl
29 Sp-deluxe: Well thanks for putting me straight about that fact Since you seem so up with UAL news, do you know if they intend to replace their 737's with Airbus
30 CX747: Air France is stuck between a rock and a hard place as the Rolling Stones like to say. The 737-500s will be replaced by A32Xs which Air France has a g
31 FLY777UAL: Yea, the 737's will all go, and will all be replaced by the A320 and A319...I'm not sure what UA will do about the 100-115 seat market (which is curre