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AF447 Wreckage Found, Part 4  
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 34259 times:

Continuing the discussion from the following thread:

AF447 Wreckage Found, Part 3 (by srbmod Apr 27 2011 in Civil Aviation)

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171 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 34236 times:

I'm reposting the latest BEA update as a start (+I find these pictures fascinating)

Latest update from BEA a/o 5/9: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/info09may2011.en.php

The French Navy patrol boat La Capricieuse reached the search vessel the Ile de Sein on Saturday 7 May during the morning. It is currently sailing towards the port of Cayenne with the flight recorders, under judicial seal, on board. Also on board are the Investigator-in-Charge, an investigator from CENIPA, the Brazilian equivalent of the BEA, and an Officer of the French judicial police.

The patrol should reach Cayenne by the morning of Wednesday 11 May. The flight recorders will then be transported to the BEA by plane.

Recovery of airplane parts has continued over the past few days, with one engine and the avionics bay, containing onboard computers, having been raised.

Engine




The avionics bay




The Ile de Sein + La Capricieuse



More pictures in the link



SXB
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 33649 times:

Oops - posted a dupe of the summary above.

[Edited 2011-05-09 19:22:57]

User currently offlinedesediez From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 32745 times:

The BEA just announced a press briefing for Thursday 12th.

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/info10mai2011.en.php


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 32234 times:

Such amazing images - I really intrigued by the recovery efforts and what the investigators will actually be able to uncover from the recorders and other wreckage. Of course, the more than 175 victims that have yet to be recovered are not far from my thoughts either, and seeing pictures of some of this six year old A330 brought to the surface makes me remember the huge human toll of this awful tragedy.

I wish I had something to add other than my thoughts but I read this thread several times a week for updates. Please keep them coming. I hope this discussion does not become reduced to a moral discussion about whether or not to raise the bodies or wild speculation about the crash - those are rarely helpful.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28804 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 1):
Engine

Is it just me, or does it appear to be missing the fan?

It looks like part of the guide vane section behind the fan made it to the surface.

I suppose the fan breaking off would be consistent with water injestion while the engine was under power?



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28547 times:
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Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):

I think it was mentioned in a previous thread that if the engine hit the water still running then it would all of a sudden creat a huge amount of thrust (and probably not very symmetrically) and shear off.

Fred


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28149 times:

Can we assume from the photos that they are cutting the wires in that tangled mess called the "avionics bay" so they can place the individual avionics components back into salt water bins until they can be examined by the professionals?

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4152 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 28116 times:
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Why cut anything. Just unplug the contacts...


Contrail designer
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 27866 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 1):
Engine

I was wondering, could the engines provide some valuable information if the DFDR data can not be read ?
I remember in the Lauda Air accident ( B767, reg OE-LAV), the investigators extracted general altitude and mach number data from the non-volatile memory of the EEC.

Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2011-05-10 14:02:51]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2011 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 26707 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
Why cut anything. Just unplug the contacts...

   I don't know if they have a robot hand flexible enough to disengage those darn hold down knobs!!!

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinedesediez From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 26317 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
Why cut anything. Just unplug the contacts...

They don't unplug them, as also the connectors could be part of the whole problem. Maybe a broken pin, or what ever else within the plug and receptacle. Cutting the wires leaves the connectors and connections untouched in the original state for possible later examination.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 25798 times:

Some idle thoughts:

1. AF447 shows us that we are still a ways away from unmanned civil aviation. Wonder if having a third pilot (Flight Engineer) in the cockpit could have saved this flight?

2. When Ottopylot's had enough, shouldn't he hand over the a/c with safe attitude and thrust settings before bailing out?

3. Still not clear after reading every post if the a/c encountered severe turbulence leading to structural damage. (Presumably not?)

I guess we'll know soon enough.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 25782 times:

Any thoughts on what we'll hear tomorrow at the press conference? None of the data will have been evaluated, assuming it can be, by that time. The lead investigator apparently came home with the first recorder they found and had someone else escort the second one home. My guess it will be to announce whether they'll continue recovering bodies and provide a timeline for looking into whether or not the data is recoverable on the FDR/CVR.


The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25590 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):

I think the next major milestone is hearing that the data is readable, and then we can heave a collective sigh of relief!


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25530 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
we are still a ways away from unmanned civil aviation

Who want unmanned civil aviation ?? Maybe some stingy CEO, but that possibility is, for the moment, only alive in the Discovery Channel futuristic programs, IMO.

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
When Ottopylot's had enough, shouldn't he hand over the a/c with safe attitude and thrust settings before bailing out?

If the A/P disconnect by overriding forces ( from the cockpit or the environment ) is very hard to expect that the hand over will be in the ideal conditions you are expecting.



Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
Still not clear after reading every post if the a/c encountered severe turbulence leading to structural damage.

With all due respect, Comorin, if you read "every" post, you should be clear, not a single conclusive evidence pointing that way, and the interim reports from BEA says almost 100% sure that the aircraft hit the water in one piece.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25525 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 4):
I wish I had something to add other than my thoughts but I read this thread several times a week for updates. Please keep them coming. I hope this discussion does not become reduced to a moral discussion about whether or not to raise the bodies or wild speculation about the crash - those are rarely helpful.

Spot on. One can just sit and watch in silence seeing all those parts coming to the surface, after lying on the unfriendly bottom of the Atlantic, 2000m below surface for two years. Just amazing..



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25457 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 15):
Who want unmanned civil aviation ??

A dream of tech geeks and science fiction types, and folks who believe taking the pilot out will avoid all those 'pilot error' crashes.

Yeah, right. I've also got some swamp land in Nevada to sell those folks.


User currently offlineTrin From United States of America, joined May 2011, 138 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25417 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):
The lead investigator apparently came home with the first recorder they found

By saying "home" I'm assuming you mean the BEA? I had visions of some guy coming home to his wife with the FDR in his briefcase.......... "honey, I'm home!........check out the AF447 FDR!"   

I would guess that tomorrow's press announcement will center around the fact that the FDR and CVR are now on the BEA's premesis, the likelihood of retrieving the data from them, and a general update on further salvage efforts, specifically with respect to the bodies of the victims.

R.E. the turbulence question above - I believe (if I can remember back far enough in this event) that the AF447 pilot reported "heavy turbulence" in some of his last communications after INTOL. Of course, heavy turbulence is a rather subjective term. Ultimately, the meteorological conditions were not judged to be the sole factor in bringing down the flight, but may have begun the cascade of problems. Aircraft travelling along the same track before and after AF447 either reported moderate turbulence, or diverted around the multicell cluster of storms.

..Trin..



"I'd always thought you were a guy." .... "Most guys do." ~The Matrix.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4152 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 25318 times:
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Quoting desediez (Reply 11):
Cutting the wires leaves the connectors and connections untouched in the original state for possible later examination.

Thanks. It looks so in the BEA picture of the boxes in those vats.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 9):

I was wondering, could the engines provide some valuable information if the DFDR data can not be read ?

A forensic examination of the engines can determine a few things : type of impact, whether they were running or not ( apparently they were...) etc...

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
Wonder if having a third pilot (Flight Engineer) in the cockpit could have saved this flight?

A good help in a cockpit only comes from a well defined rules of function. Adding just another pair of eyes / hands / ears... doesn't bring any improvement.
But you are quite right to ask the question as in my mind, there is absolutely no way we could avoid a serious discussion about CRM / Cruise crew qualifications / Rules of captain's relief... etc...
It might very well happen that the gist of the investigation will be about human factors.

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
When Ottopylot's had enough, shouldn't he hand over the a/c with safe attitude and thrust settings before bailing out?

That's already inside the requirements of every autopilot, which has to demonstrate at least a *fail-soft* status
in cruise ( the ability to withstand a failure without endangering safety and without producing excessive deviations in the flight path if reasonable pilot attention is provided)

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
Still not clear after reading every post if the a/c encountered severe turbulence leading to structural damage.

According tp the interpretations of the track with Mandala, that's a remote possibility. Moreover, They might have been out of the cloud system when the accident occured.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):
Any thoughts on what we'll hear tomorrow at the press conference?

Probably a calendar of the investigation, with dates for the various interim reports they'll be planniong.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):
The lead investigator apparently came home with the first recorder they found and had someone else escort the second one home.

AFAIK, both recorders were entrusted to the skipper of "La Capricieuse" and two law officers as escorts, who will do it until they reach France to-morrow.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 15):

Who want unmanned civil aviation ?

You'd be surprised how many do, on this site !

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Yeah, right. I've also got some swamp land in Nevada to sell those folks.

Any bass in'em ?



Contrail designer
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 25119 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
Probably a calendar of the investigation, with dates for the various interim reports they'll be planniong.

Didn't you say before that we should look for a preliminary report sometime in June?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
AFAIK, both recorders were entrusted to the skipper of "La Capricieuse" and two law officers as escorts, who will do it until they reach France to-morrow.

That makes sense seeing as they found them a day apart.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4152 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 25087 times:
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Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 20):

Didn't you say before that we should look for a preliminary report sometime in June?

Yes, within six weeks;



Contrail designer
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 25073 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 15):
Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
Still not clear after reading every post if the a/c encountered severe turbulence leading to structural damage.

With all due respect, Comorin, if you read "every" post, you should be clear, not a single conclusive evidence pointing that way, and the interim reports from BEA says almost 100% sure that the aircraft hit the water in one piece.

Doesn't mean I understood every post   - I am still confused about one point but I won't bring it up.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 25040 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
3. Still not clear after reading every post if the a/c encountered severe turbulence leading to structural damage. (Presumably not?)

The analysis of the recovered wreckage and bodies found just after the crash shows the aircraft did not break-up in flight. Even the recovered vertical stabilizer shows it almost certainly came off when the aircraft hit the water and slowed suddenly. There is no indication it separated before the plane hit the water.

But, we do need to see the FDR data to be 1000% sure.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25039 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 22):
I am still confused about one point but I won't bring it up.

I'm not 100% sure this is the latest, but maybe ( if you have the time   ), you can clarify your doubt reading this.

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e1.en/pdf/f-cp090601e1.en.pdf

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
25 Post contains links rfields5421 : That is the first report The later report is http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e2.en/pdf/f-cp090601e2.en.pdf But a better link is the BEA su
26 Pihero : To-day's BEA press conference : Bouillard apparently escorted the recorders and gave some precisions on the phase 5 campaign so far. they systematical
27 Post contains links and images Northwest727 : In the pictures of the wreckage underwater, the fan was already long gone: Like the post person said, I would assume that the engine running while ma
28 wn700driver : Don't be so sure. This scifi type seems to think the future will actually be less automated. Is there anything online that would show this, like a .p
29 Pihero : As they've done so far after a press conference, those documents should be on the site this evening. I seemed to have typed too fast and some words c
30 comorin : Thank you kindly for the links and I shall go over it carefully. I'm probably getting mixed up because of the speculation on here vs official informa
31 MD11Engineer : Don´t be to happy about this item too early. While this recorder (which records aircraft systems data for maintenance and trend monitoring purposes)
32 Post contains links moriarty : New PDF document at BEA site: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/presentation12mai2011.pdf (I know it doesn't provide much that is not already
33 Pihero : Fair enough, but they made it a priority to retrieve it, therefore I'm optimistic.
34 Post contains links RubberJungle : Wreckage field image released by the BEA today: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...af447-map-of-the-debris-field.html
35 Kaiarahi : Interesting debris map. The engines are towards the "rear" of the field, as one would expect, but so is the gear, including the nose gear. Would this
36 Pihero : That's the mapping I was talking about. Of interest is to see on that picture that the front part of the fuselage - the cockpit - has been thoroughly
37 Pihero : Not really. As the bottom fuselage has been smashed to pieces, the boxes housing the gear would be showing, as they will be just that much more solid
38 Kaiarahi : Aha! I assumed the path was from right to left, hence my question about the gear.
39 rfields5421 : The images of the nose gear previously posted (and the other gear) show actuators? mountings and other parts attached in what would be the closed pos
40 Garpd : It's clear now just how total the destruction of this plane was. One hopes the end was fast of not instant for those on board. I've had haunting image
41 casinterest : Are you sure of that? I am thinking a lot of the debris spread we see is due to current drift as the pieces submerged . The orientation of the fusala
42 Pihero : Yes, those gears are not locked down.
43 Pihero : Your guess is as good as mine, but we don't know the size of the wing part still holding that gear. Imagine that that piece sunk in a sort of *fallin
44 tom355uk : I'm actually surprised at how concentrated the debris field is. It almost looks like the sort of spread you would find had the aircraft hit terrain. O
45 breiz : I have difficulties to conciliate BEA's evidence of vertical compression forces perpendicular to the fuselage axis (on parts recovered on surface) an
46 rl757pvd : Hitting the surface flat would not provide the velocity in the water to allow for such a hit on the ocean floor (the much heavier titanic remained in
47 richierich : I'll volunteer to ask the stupid question of the day... but why would anybody expect the gear to have been extended when the plane crashed? They were
48 osteogenesis : Remember that the parts will go down in the watter at different speeds depending on their mass compared with the volume displaced. The currents are m
49 BrouAviation : Thank you for this, I really couldn't make sense of the picture and the way the debris was scattered around the seabed, even considered it might have
50 Kaiarahi : They wouldn't - which is why I asked the question. But it's moot as I had misunderstood the horizontal trajectory.
51 Garpd : Initial theories included the aircraft entering a flat spin. One recovery method in a flat spin is to introduce drag, the gear can do that, so extend
52 rfields5421 : Some people have expressed an opinion that the crew might have lowered the gear and flaps to bring the air speed down. (There is no indication the fl
53 richierich : Got it... thanks for clearing this up. I must have missed this in all the earlier posts.
54 WingedMigrator : I have to disagree with this-- you really can't figure out the flight path of the aircraft from the layout of the debris field. The observed distribu
55 canoecarrier : If you assume that the FDR housing separated from the recorder on impact with the water, with the housing being less dense and more like an empty met
56 rohanghosh : "France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) said last week that the external casings of both the flight recorders -- which record data and co
57 Pihero : That's the reason why I only chose chunky, dense items that could not be slowed too much, or I assumed that their ballistic characteristics were simi
58 Pihero : There still is a huge discussion on the BEA semantics : In French, the sentence was it hit the water *en ligne de vol* with an important vertical acc
59 spacecadet : Have we definitively established which direction the airplane was traveling? I was about to write that it appeared to me that it was actually going r
60 canoecarrier : I'm not saying that the two crashes are similar, but when ET Flight 961hit the water the right wing folded over the fuselage. I'm not sure we can inf
61 Gonzalo : And that makes the situation more sad and tragic...they failed in the recovery attempt just for a few seconds... Let's hope the professional and dedi
62 Trin : When I looked at the debris map, that was my first thought, too. There are some elements there that lend credence to that notion, but in considering
63 PPVRA : You think this could end up being similar to XL Airways Flight 888T (NZ A320)?
64 Post contains links AMSSFO : There's one point which hasn't been mentioned, something which struck me already when BEA showed the first map right after they had found the site: T
65 rfields5421 : Remember the aircraft continued to fly at normal cruise speed and normal flight level for at least two minutes past the Last Known Position, possibly
66 Guillermo : I think that there is much stress in the aircraft technical aspects and on the crew hypothetical behavior than on the system as a whole. It is not a c
67 prebennorholm : No. It tells a lot more about currents. The descend of metal components to the ocean floor would typically have lasted 15 to 30 minutes depending on
68 Post contains images WingedMigrator : The terminal sinking velocity goes as the square root of the ballistic coefficient m/(Cd*A). There is no way that you could possibly know that the ba
69 canoecarrier : Wouldn't there be a scatter effect of some sort as some lighter items acted like sea anchors as they fell to the ocean floor? That's why I postulated
70 Pihero : Still agree with you. and with Prebbennorholm . (his quick computation was to me an eye-opener ) The fact is that these 1500 ft per knot he gave us j
71 Garpd : Would you agree then, that with the evidence at hand. It seems likely the aircraft impacted the water with a nose forward, slightly down atitude with
72 Pihero : Seems we're thinking along the same lines, here. From the press conference, this is what I inderstood : 1:- the recorders will be taken out of the se
73 Pihero : A dive recovery attempt would be, for me, a more accurate description of my thoughts.
74 flipdewaf : If the aircraft hit at 300kts then my back of fag packet calculation says that the aircraft would decelerate in the order of 100m. The aircraft was o
75 fca767 : Does that mean they will know what happened next week but we have to wait until 2012? Or will they at least give us something from the CVR FDR.
76 Pihero : Oh no ! Only reading the memory ( i.e transferring the data onto another computer will take most of a day ). Then the job of translating each paramet
77 Post contains images fca767 : Thanks for your explanation, I see now Would they be able to say anything from listening to the Voice Recorders at the least before 2012?
78 GBan : If the CVR is readable it might reveal what the crew thought was happening. While that is certainly important for the investigation the proceeding de
79 Post contains images Trin : I cited the same article about a week ago in one of the many previous threads - but nobody picked up on it. The article talked about the drying proce
80 rfields5421 : This is often a major clue to what is found in an accident investigation. In any 'smoking gun' is found in the FDR/ CVR data - aircraft manufacturers
81 Post contains links Pihero : This is a good explanation of the process, alas ! in French. Could someone help with a quick translation on the images ? As a matter of fact, it match
82 Pihero : Won't be surprised. On the net, you'd see the arrival of the *black boxes * to the BEA and the press conference. I can assure you that they were stil
83 Gonzalo : I'm afraid that's not true. Hitting the water at that speed is almost the same as hitting concrete. The aircraft speed probably was zero in the first
84 fca767 : So hopefully they'd give us a clue before 2012
85 Post contains images GBan : Thanks for the link - and for all your valuable contributions! When I first read your post I wondered about engine rotation speed recorded by the CVR
86 WingedMigrator : Yes, this is the ballistic coefficient I described. Heavier and smaller stuff falls faster than lighter and bigger stuff. In 4000 m of water, the tim
87 Post contains links flipdewaf : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZyDrpeWoBw&feature=related More than a couple of meters. The concrete thing is just what people say, that is what
88 WingedMigrator : That depends. The outcome is sensitively dependent on the flight path angle. In the video you posted, that angle is very shallow and the aircraft ski
89 flipdewaf : As a lateral component maybe (and describing the spread of the debris) but the overall distance traveled whilst still decelerating would still be in
90 Post contains links and images garpd : I would imagine this A330 hit the water at a similar attitude as the Nimrod does in this video. As you will see, apart from bits that fly off, the pl
91 WingedMigrator : We don't know that. Bullets don't travel nearly that far when fired into water. Bullets fly much faster than A330's and have a higher ballistic coeff
92 canoecarrier : I was just about to ask if these CSMUs were waterproof, then I found that memory card itself is made of waterproof components. Why does it take so lo
93 Gonzalo : This Nimrod crash is exactly the accident where I heard, many years ago and for the first time, the investigators saying in a Discovery Channel docum
94 Pihero : for accuracy. They'll transfer the data at basically the same speed they were recorded.
95 fca767 : Do you think they'll tell us what happened as soon as they Hear the CVR recordings? or will they definitly just wait until 2012 to tell us anything n
96 comorin : Like a stone skipping water, there will also be a bounce effect (that is visible in the Nimrod video) that disperses parts around the point of entry.
97 tdscanuck : It would likely break off if running, either at power or idle...the force change on the blades when switching from air to water is huge (on the order
98 spacecadet : Well, technically the plane in that video goes under the surface of the water. You can't really see how quickly it actually stops under there. Probab
99 canoecarrier : Right, and I believe this was discussed by Mandela or Pihero before that the bodies they found were likely people that weren't wearing seatbelts at t
100 flipdewaf : But for a bullet the forces are do ores more by viscous force than mass based forces whereas the opposite is true for the airliner, big ships take mi
101 kiwiandrew : True , if the aircraft remained in one piece, however, I am not so sure that reasoning works when the aircraft shatters into thousands of fragments o
102 Guillermo : Tom, of course you are right, but you can be reasonably sure of what you are saying after seeing the first images of the aircraft's remains and the r
103 comorin : Intriguing comment! I wasn't suggesting an automation probelm - it seems that there was a point at which the automation could no longer fly the plane
104 Guillermo : Excuse me, but I not sure about what are you trying to say. Not to get less importance to the person of Mr. Steven, but I was talking about commercia
105 tdscanuck : You're talking about a different case now...not one in which the airplane crashed with little hope of possibility, but one in which the plane somehow
106 Post contains links Pihero : I knew I would find a good article on ther BEA newsconference. I found it, and it's my idea on good journalism : Facts and only facts . Here it is fro
107 Post contains links GBan : The link doesn't work for me, I assume you mean this article:
108 GBan : My link doesn't even show and I can't edit my previous post right now, sorry. Search for "Investigators hopeful on black boxes" on online.wsj.com to g
109 comorin : I'm grateful for the many questions you have answered on this forum. To recast my question, I'm wondering what happens when the FBW system degrades a
110 Post contains links flood : hm, maybe this... same WSJ article which also ran in the Morning Star: http://tinyurl.com/3ge3v8r
111 rfields5421 : That the automated flight systems found a conflict they could not resolve and turned over control of the aircraft to the pilots (per the ACARS maint
112 rwessel : That would make sense for an analog recorder, but not a digital one. On a solid state digital device the memory reads and is presented to the outputs
113 Post contains links AMSSFO : I stand corrected. I now understand that even when the (heavier) parts do have some forward motion right after hitting the water this effect disappea
114 Pihero : Generally, it's longitude You are now in the troubled waters of airline / pilot unions (dis)agreements. The poition reporting system is available, an
115 rfields5421 : Accident investigation processes tend to be very conservative, and especially very careful with the reading of data. The processes developed for reti
116 rfields5421 : Thanks for the heads up. It looks like a really nice system. However, it still apparently requires ground stations every 350-400 nm apart.
117 tdscanuck : The FBW system and the autoflight system are two different things...there is no particular reason that the autoflight system has to stop functioning
118 travelavnut : To expand on that, IIRC it has never happened that a FBW airliner (be it a Boeing, Airbus or any other) has crashed because the FBW system going comp
119 canoecarrier : Anyone know how this is handled in the marine industry? Cargo ships transit these areas as frequently or more than aircraft do every day. Either way,
120 Post contains images longhaul67 : Based on where the wreckage was found and the position of the first ACARS message: And Tim Vasquez analysis of the weather at the time of the ACARS me
121 Kaiarahi : This has already been been discussed MANY times on these threads. Position reports are 10 minutes apart. They don't tell you what the plane did in th
122 Pihero : Correct, but that synchronisation to the time of the last ACaRS shows the aircraft outside the convection zone, I.e ouside the areas of high towering
123 Kaiarahi : Agreed absolutely. I should have been more precise. Not only were they clear when the last ACARS was sent, but in addition plotting ACARS positions t
124 rwessel : They will presumably read out the entire contents of the recorder, in whatever order the recorder is designed to be read, and at whatever speed the d
125 tdscanuck : Thanks for bringing that up...I believe that is true as well. And it's definitely more dependable than cables. Killing a modern FBW system is phenome
126 canoecarrier : Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I'm trying to figure out why the slow download speed. The maintenance units that mechanics use can transfer the dat
127 flood : A mechanic won't be downloading data from a unit which has been submerged at the bottom of the ocean for two years. That said, I don't believe the ac
128 frmrCapCadet : and besides thousands of planes using FBW, we now have literally millions of cars sold each year, well into their second decade, and we simply don't
129 Post contains links Guillermo : You are missing the point. The bottom line couldn't be that “if an airliner goes down in the way AF447 did, it is not good policy to do anything us
130 Gonzalo : I think you are correct in the technical aspect of this, but you are missing the historical and psychological aspects that also have relevance in thi
131 rfields5421 : And SA 295 is very different from AF 447 in that they were in verbal contact with ATC, advised ATC of their emergency and tried to provide a position
132 breiz : Air India Flight 182 (23 June 1985) may be one, although she was destroyed by a bomb off Ireland, not really a remote/isolated area (120 miles (190 k
133 rcair1 : It is not clear the data is written to addresses in any specific order. These are memory chips - you can randomly access any chunk. There is no time
134 tdscanuck : I'm not sure that I am...your points are clear. I think you are missing my point though. I agree it's not acceptable to no launch SAR because of surv
135 rfields5421 : There are some key points in the first BEA report which should give anyone concern about the 'virtual track' system. It in each of these instances is
136 rfields5421 : Now - there is some very important, very critical data missing from my post above. 1) How often do aircraft travel along these routes without communic
137 Pihero : According to "France Info" the news radio here, The totality of the recorded data have been extracted from the flight recorders.
138 travelavnut : Holy crap, that is unbelievable great news!!!! Congratulations to all parties involved!
139 Post contains links GBan : Complete download confirmed by BEA: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/info16mai2011.en.php
140 moriarty : That is almost as impressive as it was to find those recorders in the first place. Thanks for the update, now let's hope they can deduce something fro
141 tdscanuck : How long do you think the delay should be? Over the south Atlantic at night, jumping from "no comms" to "aircraft in trouble" is an unwarranted leap
142 Trin : This isn't exactly as scientific-minded a post as many provide us with on this great forum, but FWIW...........I cried when I read this. I really can
143 Speedbird128 : And herein lies the most likely reason that AF447 could not contact Dakar on CPDLC. The ADS/CPDLC systems I have used require a flight plan in the sy
144 Post contains links comorin : Kudos to Honeywell too! Interesting that Chief M. Troadec of the BEA feels "We have all of the pieces that we wanted" to pursue and conclude the inves
145 alhena : Thanx for that info.
146 ogre727 : woooooowwwwww, these are indeed amazing news!!! Now I am entirely confident that we will know what happened... as I am sure knowing what happened will
147 rfields5421 : The ICAO INCERFA standard is 30 minutes. Either 30 minutes without comms or missing an expected communication for 30 minutes. I'm not certain that 30
148 Trin : IMO, the lack of significant ability to change the OUTCOME of an aircrash should in NO way affect the manner or timeliness in which said aircrash is
149 Gonzalo : You turned my "arghh... Monday", in a GREAT MONDAY !!! Thanks. Maybe not "all the time", but as previously stated in this forums, lost comms are a co
150 rj777 : I smell a new "Seconds from Disaster" or "Air Crash Investigation" episode coming on.... and maybe even a Hollywood Movie!
151 pitingres : Maybe, but to accept a systematic delay of multiple hours is OK if a faster response would make no difference for all but the most artificially const
152 rfields5421 : Every day many flights, at least a couple dozen worlwide, miss at least one required checkpoint verification reports. I'm uncertain what percentage o
153 Trin : Very definitely. I imagine that this disaster happened at the worst possible location for a quick and concise response - i.e. right slap-bang in the
154 canoecarrier : How is that different from any normal center control handoff? ATC says "contact center on 127.9" the pilot repeats the command back and changes frequ
155 rfields5421 : Sorry - but an improved response time does add significant value. While in this location, there is minimal possibility of reaching a perfectly ditche
156 TommyBP251b : "Air Crash Investigation" will come for sure, but a movie? What would be the plot? The only plot, that would be appropiate and enough respectful rega
157 Guillermo : Tom, I'm afraid that we two are looking the same thing from different perspectives. What you are exposing here -supported also by other posters- is,
158 Post contains links vfw614 : This probably warrants a dedicated thread, but I will post it here: According to Le Figaro Online, the data retrieved from the FDR exonerate Airbus an
159 pitingres : Well, no. I think what we say is "This is a really crappy, low-return way to spend time and money. Let's see if there isn't some way to spend those r
160 Asturias : Amazing and great news that the data has been fully recovered from the FDR/CFR!! I can hardly believe what I am reading, it is like fiction! 2 years a
161 jeffrito : Uh oh ... the first leak addresses liability. A good sign for the investigation?
162 rfields5421 : It sounds much more like a speculative guess at FDR data than an actual leak. NOTE - vfw614 did not say this - it was from the article he quoted. Now
163 tdscanuck : I would agree with you if it was only relevant for this incident...but it's not. It's very important to recognize that we're talking about a *very* s
164 Post contains images Guillermo : I've got it. For instance, a fine destination of (available?) resources could be to deploy Mobile Internet inside airplanes as it was announced some
165 Post contains links JoeKuboj : INFO LE FIGARO - Reportedly, the first evidence from black boxes guide the investigators to an error by the crew of Air France. From Reutuers twiter:
166 Post contains links railker : The BEA has published their own reaction to Le Figaro ... http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/com17mai2011.en.php
167 Speedbird128 : Which was almost a certainty. I cannot believe the media torture and torment the families of the tragedy.
168 ComeAndGo : was it the media or was it airbus insiders part of the probe leaking to the press? After all airbus had a lot riding on this probe.
169 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Read the posts in BEA :Total Data Extraction From AF447 Boxes (by Pihero May 16 2011 in Civil Aviation). Multiple threads are a pain.
170 nwafflyer : Question here - the report I read said the AF did not train their crews for this sort of a situation (high altitude icing and it's consequences), and
171 Post contains images David L : Already being discussed in the thread Kaiarahi linked to in the post immediately before yours.
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