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British Airways And The Service To TLV.  
User currently offlinehovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9623 times:

In the Israeli market, British Airways holds the most desired spot. While competition is aggressive towards LY, all other carriers are profitable because of huge demands for seats in economy class.
Focusing on LY, it ca be stated that the premium product, as offered by BA, is far more elegant, sophisticated and modern than offered on board LY's long haul fleet.

Against the quiet, yet effective prevailing of Star Alliance in and out of TLV it is time to seriously consider the future of service between TLV and LHR. It is essential to reinstate TLV as a double daily 777 service, rather than current 1x763 and 1x772. LH,LX, AF, KL - all are Europe based carriers with an increased service to TLV this summer. At the days prior to 9/11, British Airways had a third 772 equipped flight "BA167/6", that was axed due the worldwide decrease in business.

Why than the route is like "frozen" for long time, and why didn't the sudden exit of BD some months ago changed something? Its known that the service to HND has suspended and that the CAI route was downgraded to 772 ILO 744 - so that theoretically there is the fleet to be able of maintaining it.

Would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge for that issue.

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5193 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9596 times:

Quoting hovitzer (Thread starter):
Why than the route is like "frozen" for long time, and why didn't the sudden exit of BD some months ago changed something?

Perhaps the fact Easyjet now fly the route muiht answer why BA dont fly 3 daily. The Easyjet A319 would seat as many economy pax as the BA 767.

Quoting hovitzer (Thread starter):
all other carriers are profitable because of huge demands for seats in economy class.

And if the demand is for all economy class then the easyjet flight fills that demand once offered by BA.


User currently offlinehovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9387 times:

Easyjet should not be a factor when BA considers upgrade. The focus should be on premium passengers, on better connection options via LHR, on revealing many BA destinations that are unfamiliar with the Israeli market such as BGI, ANU, SKB and so on. With 25% more capacity the prices requested could become more reasonable. Furthermore, future increase may also be found profitable for cargo business.

User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9267 times:

Quoting hovitzer (Reply 2):
The focus should be on premium passengers, on better connection options via LHR, on revealing many BA destinations that are unfamiliar with the Israeli market such as BGI, ANU, SKB and so on

Is there a huge demand for travel from TLV to the Caribbean??? I work for BA and have never noticed this trend before.
The connections all mean a night stop-over in London due to the arrival time of the TLV flight and the departure times of the Caribbean services, plus the fact they leave from LGW and not LHR.



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlinehovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8986 times:

The Caribbeans was given as an example for the potential of BA and Israel.
What about rescheduling the morning flight to an earlier arrival & departure? LX, LH, KL, IZ and IB are all leaving TLV early morning allowing their passengers to connect comfortably in their hubs.

In sum, the TLV service needs to be analyzed to maximize its potential.


User currently offlinely7e7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8770 times:

Quoting hovitzer (Reply 4):

Actually one of the reasons I use BA out of Tlv is the 8 am departure - gets mein time to most connections without waking up at 3 am...



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8653 times:

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 3):
Is there a huge demand for travel from TLV to the Caribbean???

Well there is a lot of demand from TLV to MIA so maybe that can be good for connections.... After all BA has like 2 daily flights to MIA and a third in the summer (I think, somebody correct me on this)....Although it seems quite out of the way...


User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8490 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 6):
Well there is a lot of demand from TLV to MIA so maybe that can be good for connections.

Again, not something that I've noticed from a sales perspective but I could be wrong.
BA have 3 flights to MIA everyday with one of the service's being operated by AA.

Also, the morning flight from TLV connects nicely with the pm MIA service so anyone connecting through LHR can do without an overnight stay.

I get what hovitzer is saying but if there was money to be made from an additional service I'm sure BA's revenue team would have looked at it because with the Joint Business venture with AA there are even more BA flights (codeshare or mainline) for customers to connect with



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8265 times:

The other factor (I would think) as to why there isn't as much demand for connecting traffic to TLV via LHR is because of LHR's location. The only connecting passengers for whom LHR makes much sense would be from the UK, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland or North America. Otherwise it's out of the way.

The UK passengers have the Easyjet non-stop and the 2 BA services from/through London.

The Irish, Icelandic, and Greenland passengers have these flights, plus a number of connections through mainland Europe. Since passport controls apply to passengers from Ireland to the UK, it makes sense to avoid delay-prone airports like LHR when there are plently of other connecting opportunities available at relatively easy airports such as AMS, ZRH, MUC, FCO, etc.

For North American passengers, it's true that LHR is a convenient stopover, but not as convenient as it once was. Before 9/11, only LY, CO and TW flew to TLV from the USA. CO and TW only offered one flight each. Now, TW is gone, but DL and US fly to TLV. Also, CO now has 2 flights on the route. AC also serves TLV from YYZ (I'm not sure if they did before 9/11 though).

With several more non-stop options from North America, the LHR stop-over isn't a very convenient option, even for those of us on the West Coast. When I was looking at going to Israel last fall, I was looking at CO, DL, LH, LX and AZ. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make the trip, but I would definitely love to go soon!



LHR - The Capital of the World
User currently offlinembe0002 From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 8):
Greenland passengers

cool, didn't know BA serve Greenland now   Must be really a huge market for flights from Israel to Greenland ?!


User currently offlinemcr From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5671 times:
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Quoting hovitzer (Thread starter):
it is time to seriously consider the future of service between TLV and LHR.

Why? For a city with only 404,000 inhabitants (2010 data), in a country with a total population smaller than that of London, it seems to me like it's a pretty well served market already.


User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5357 times:
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DL 468/469 JFK-TLV a 747-400 has a connecting porttion, with same fligh numbers, from JFK-MIA offering the quickest
TLV-MIA flight times. From experience I would say around 40% of the passengers make connections out of JFK on either
other DL flights or OAL flights. When I flew DL 152/153 ATL-TLV, which connects to LAX out of ATL as DL152/153, most of
the passengers on this flight had onward connection out of ATL with most heading for Florida destinations, FLL, TPA, PBI,
MCO. My partner who flys with CO/UAL has found the same numbers on their EWR-TLV of connecting passengers.
I don't believe many US or Israeli passengers would prefer to make a connection in LHR and then another in a US city and
fly direct to a US gateway city and make their onward connectings from there. The load factors of DL/CO/LY between TLV and
either JFK/EWR/ATL/LAX bear this out.


User currently onlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24928 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 8):
The UK passengers have the Easyjet non-stop and the 2 BA services from/through London.

And Jet2 2/3 x weekly service from Manchester for those in the north



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2608 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

One shouldn't be surprised if BA would add seats as aircraft upgrade or extra flights between LON and TLV.
Who knows BA may even be thinking of a weekly November-April only LGW-VDA.
U2 from another UK (non LON) airport to TLV may not be so crazy either.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently onlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24928 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 13):
U2 from another UK (non LON) airport to TLV may not be so crazy either.

That'll be Manchester if anywhere...



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting mbe0002 (Reply 9):
cool, didn't know BA serve Greenland now Must be really a huge market for flights from Israel to Greenland ?!

I only mentioned Greenland as a geographical place for which a connection through LHR would be convenient. I didn't say anything about BA serving Greenland or about there being a demand for passengers to fly from Greenland to TLV. But if someone were going from Greenland to Israel, LHR makes sense geographically.



LHR - The Capital of the World
User currently offlinehovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Quoting mcr (Reply 10):
Why? For a city with only 404,000 inhabitants (2010 data), in a country with a total population smaller than that of London, it seems to me like it's a pretty well served market already.

You are totally correct being number wised, but it does not make sense that almost every other carrier does upgrade the service. With these figures I can't understand the full capacity as reached by LH and LX on their double daily 777 equivalent equipment. Tel Aviv is far from being like London, Paris or New York but it does get as closest as possible all over the Middle East. The solution might be found in marketing and publishing TLV as a preferred tourist destination (although things have been successfully done lately regarding proud/gay tourists).

And what about revenues that can be reached through higher cargo capacity? It may be less important than PAX incomes, yet it is a growing market with very nice potential that can be wisely used by BA.


User currently offlineHarpandShamrock From Ireland, joined Mar 2011, 133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4653 times:

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 8):
Since passport controls apply to passengers from Ireland to the UK, it makes sense to avoid delay-prone airports like LHR when there are plently of other connecting opportunities available at relatively easy airports such as AMS, ZRH, MUC, FCO, etc.

Whilst there are many good reasons for connecting in Europe over LHR travelling from Ireland, passport control isn't one of them. Travel between Ireland and the UK does not require a passport, and passengers do not need to go through any form of passport control, but travel between Ireland and Europe does.



2011 so far: LX (4), FR (2), EI (2), BE (2) - 4004 miles
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2608 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 14):
That'll be Manchester if anywhere...

Or U2 LPL base not to go head-to-head with Jet2 in MAN.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 8):
AC also serves TLV from YYZ (I'm not sure if they did before 9/11 though).

AC began TLV service in June 1996.


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4009 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4271 times:
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Quoting B767300ER (Reply 11):
TLV-MIA flight times. From experience I would say around 40% of the passengers make connections out of JFK on either
other DL flights or OAL flights. When I flew DL 152/153 ATL-TLV, which connects to LAX out of ATL as DL152/153, most of
the passengers on this flight had onward connection out of ATL with most heading for Florida destinations, FLL, TPA, PBI,

It sounds like it would be better if there was a direct flight from TLV to Florida (MIA).


User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
It sounds like it would be better if there was a direct flight from TLV to Florida (MIA).

Oh of course! El Al used to have a flight but they stopped it fr some reason (can't remember why at the moment). MIA-TLV has tons of demand. Its just a matter of wait for a carrier to resart the route *cough* AA *cough*

[Edited 2011-05-11 14:53:51]

[Edited 2011-05-11 14:55:35]

User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
It sounds like it would be better if there was a direct flight from TLV to Florida (MIA).

MIA connections are alongside EZE, as far as I know, the primary reasons why IB flies twice daily (with plans to make it 3 daily shortly) to TLV, increasingly with an A343.

So yes, Israel-Florida traffic must be massive.


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 21):
El Al used to have a flight but they stopped it fr some reason (can't remember why at the moment).



They suspended the route when fuel prices spiked. Also, LY deployed a 762 to MIA, and management concluded that there was not enough demand to up-gauge to a 777. Apparently, LY chose to open a new route to GRU on a 777 three times a week rather than resume flights to MIA on a 777. LY may eventually return to MIA.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 22):
MIA connections are alongside EZE, as far as I know, the primary reasons why IB flies twice daily (with plans to make it 3 daily shortly) to TLV, increasingly with an A343.



IB flights to and from TLV are highly dependant on traffic connecting to MEX, EZE, GIG, BOG, and LIM. According to rumors, IB is considering whether to resume flights between TLV and BCN with its own aircraft. If true, IB would continue to operate two daily flights between TLV and MAD and one daily flight between BCN and TLV. Other than GRU, IB does not currently fly from BCN to any destination in Latin America.


User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting HarpandShamrock (Reply 17):
Whilst there are many good reasons for connecting in Europe over LHR travelling from Ireland, passport control isn't one of them. Travel between Ireland and the UK does not require a passport, and passengers do not need to go through any form of passport control, but travel between Ireland and Europe does.

That's good to know. When I was last in Ireland, I had to go through Passport Control in DUB upon arrival from LHR. I can't remember if I had to do the same upon arrival in GLA from DUB. But that was all back in 2006, and maybe it was because I was a non-EU national at the time.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):
LY may eventually return to MIA.

I'd be willing to bet on it. This seems like an ideal 787 route.

One reason preventing AA from flying MIA-TLV (or ORD-TLV) is that there were some problems related to the former TW employees after the merger. I'm not sure about all of the details, but I've heard that AA pulled out of TLV right after the TW merger, and that many of the former TW employees in Israel claim that they were owed money by TW/AA. They sued AA, and AA didn't show up in court. I would think that this issue would have to be resolved before AA started serving TLV. IMHO, it's much more likely that LY would restart the route, while the many AAdvantage members in MIA could earn and redeem miles on the LY flight.



LHR - The Capital of the World
25 bastew : It's pretty easy to say how many passengers are travelling from Tel Aviv to Miami but a full flight doesn't necessarily equate a profitable flight. BA
26 hovitzer : And that is exactly my point from the first post. TLV is indeed a year round premium route that can easily support double daily 772 and a numerous we
27 Post contains links VV701 : BA actually has a surplus of long haul aircraft. Four serviceable BA 744s are parked up at VCV. Another is at CWL undergoing heavy maintenance prior
28 HarpandShamrock : It is a bit of a complicated mess at the moment to be honest. Arriving at most UK airports from Ireland you are sent, often by bus, through a special
29 Post contains links Talaier : I based myself on what IB published on its website (in Spanish), which is very similar to what you say although they also mention MIA: http://grupo.i
30 CXA330300 : Israelis travel quite a bit - and particularly to the UK, but more importantly, there's a huge VFR/business market in North America that the non-stop
31 laca773 : I don't think we'll ever see AA back in TLV. LY needs to do something with their strategy. They seem to have more misses than hits. Perhaps they coul
32 stylo777 : comparing BA with the LH Group there is also the fact that Miles & More has a huge customer base in Israel. those flyers, but especially the once
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