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Allegiant And The Mad Dog  
User currently offlinemir2069 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 50 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

I flew Allegiant a few times out of FLL,great price a real ULCC, compared to others.Now with oil prices at record levels, they are not ULCC anymore.Also does anyone see Allegiant replacing the mad dogs anytime soon and with what?They only have 32 frames.2-757 (1stored 1 leased)30-MD80 (I'm sure 1 or 2 for parts) or they could wait on DL AA to get rid of there more than 380 frames combined and start replacing that way but doesn't do anything about the high price of oil?

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15489 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting mir2069 (Thread starter):
start replacing that way but doesn't do anything about the high price of oil?

The money they saved by purchasing MD-80s versus newer, more fuel efficient aircraft will buy a lot of fuel, but the business case for new planes gets better as fuel prices move higher.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Allegiant has an A320 in their glass display case at HQ in Las Vegas.. though multiple sources seem confident that its just a ploy to keep the manufacturers on their toes.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineflying_727 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting mir2069 (Thread starter):
They only have 32 frames.2-757 (1stored 1 leased)30-MD80 (I'm sure 1 or 2 for parts)

51 operating MD-80s (there are 8-12 in storage, the presentation list two different numbers in multiple places)
4 757s, 3 leased out, 1 operating domestic this summer
2 757 scheduled to arrive in Nov 2011

http://files.shareholder.com/downloa...resentation%20-%20March%202011.pdf


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3277 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
The money they saved by purchasing MD-80s versus newer, more fuel efficient aircraft will buy a lot of fuel, but the business case for new planes gets better as fuel prices move higher.

Tell that to Delta. You can be sure they thought the same thing of the DC9 fleet inherited from NW. But after looking at the overall costs, darn if those old DC9-50's aren't still flying around! I think G4 has plenty of room to spare still on fuel costs operating the MD80.


User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

It seems to me that if Allegiant owns the planes, the increased fuel costs are less than leases.

User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

A brand new A320 costs (per Airbus) an average of $85 million dollars.
A brand new 737-800 costs (per Boeing) an average of $80.5 million dollars

http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/co...?eID=dam_frontend_push&docID=14849
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/index.html

Allegiant has been buying MD-80s for a tiny fraction of that price, in some cases, it's costing them under $4 million to buy, refurbish and modify an MD-80. G4 is paying for these a/c in cash, which in the long run is better financially since had they're not having to make payments on the a/c. Another thing to note is that with airlines like AA and DL having sizable fleets of MD-80 family a/c, as those airlines retire those a/c from their fleet, that's an opportunity for G4 to pick up a/c rather cheaply, even if for parts.

Allegiant's scheduling helps keep their fuel costs down as well. They don't fly to cities on a daily basis, and IIRC, there are days in which there are no flights scheduled at all.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
They don't fly to cities on a daily basis, and IIRC, there are days in which there are no flights scheduled at all.

This also keeps their fleet utilization low (fewer cycles, less maintenance required). In addition, all of their trips are out and back, no overnight away from base.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting flying_727 (Reply 3):
http://files.shareholder.com/downloa...resentation%20-%20March%202011.pdf

Interesting presentation. That was the first I've heard of G4 adding 16 seats to their MD80s. The presentation says they are "adding 16 seats by removing monuments," what are monuments? The presentation says their aircraft will have "30 inch seat pitch (standard pitch in industry)." I literally laughed out loud when I read that..30" is hardly industry standard.

Have they announced where the domestic 757 will operate?


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Why not acquire the Saudia MD-90s? MD-90s are dirt cheap to acquire and are fuel efficient.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinemccarranmgr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
Have they announced where the domestic 757 will operate?

It has not been "announced", but starting in July they will start subbing the 757 for scheduled MD80 routes. Expect routes like LAS-RFD-LAS. The aircraft will finally make its way to LAS during the second week of June for crew training.


User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2021 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Why not acquire the Saudia MD-90s? MD-90s are dirt cheap to acquire and are fuel efficient.

IIRC Delta was buying all the MD90 it can for their fleet.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Why not acquire the Saudia MD-90s? MD-90s are dirt cheap to acquire and are fuel efficient.

Besides the fact that DL is supposed to be looking at buying them, they are different enough from the MD-80 a/c in their fleet that adding them would not make financial sense. The MD-90 has a different engine type (IAE V2500) than the MD-80s, so that would mean having to keep a supply of parts for that engine in addition to the ones for the PW JT-8-200s the MD-80s have. Plus there are flight deck differences as well, with the MD-90 being more similar to the MD-88 than the other MD-80 family a/c (G4 does have some MD-88s in their fleet, but the MD-83 is the dominant type in their fleet.), and in the case of the MD-90s of Saudia, they use a flight deck that issimilar to the MD-11 flight deck, so G4 would have to get access to an MD-11 sim.


User currently offlineeraugrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1816 times:

G4 should really look at getting 737-300/400's all crews can fly either and allows G4 to fly smaller plans to cities that warrant them and larger -400's to others. G4 has a lot of planes to only be flying to cities 2-3 times a week once a day.

Desmond in ILM,



Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 619 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
, in some cases, it's costing them under $4 million to buy, refurbish and modify an MD-80.

Someone posted a used aircraft price list about three months ago that quoted a used M80 at or below $1.8 million. A cabin retrofit is never more than $580,000 for an M80. Allegiant's entire business model depends on cheap, used aircraft.

The biggest cost for them, besides fuel, is MX. An old M80 takes a lot more to keep flying than a newer jet, costs are sometimes in the millions per month, per aircraft.


User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1766 times:

I think that the 757s will only be operating to Canada, Mexico, and/or Hawaii from the west coast only. You won't see them anywhere else unless for maintenance. The mad dogs aren't really a problem at the moment and I don't think G4 will worry about it. IMHO.


From the airport with love
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 14):

The biggest cost for them, besides fuel, is MX. An old M80 takes a lot more to keep flying than a newer jet, costs are sometimes in the millions per month, per aircraft.

It's still cheaper than buying or leasing a 737NG or A320 family a/c.

Quoting eraugrad02 (Reply 13):
G4 has a lot of planes to only be flying to cities 2-3 times a week once a day.

That's one of the key parts of their business plan. It makes no sense to operate to some cities more than that a week and at more than once a day, as those flights would potentially go out with loads that either don't make them money or barely make them money. G4's business plan pretty much needs their flights to go out as full as possible in order to maximize revenue on those flights, not just from tickets, but the ancillary revenue. It's cheaper for them to park planes on the lighter travel days than to operate them.

Quoting eraugrad02 (Reply 13):
G4 should really look at getting 737-300/400's all crews can fly either and allows G4 to fly smaller plans to cities that warrant them and larger -400's to others.

It still may be cheaper for them to buy MD-80 family a/c, as there is not as much demand on the open market for them as there is with the 737 Classics.


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Allegiant also has a significant part-out model tacked on to their business plan. It is not uncommon to see 2 or 3 of 10 aircraft purchased stripped down for spares.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 17):
Allegiant also has a significant part-out model tacked on to their business plan. It is not uncommon to see 2 or 3 of 10 aircraft purchased stripped down for spares.

Five of the 18 a/c they bought from SAS last year were strictly for spares.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010.../04/allegiant-buying-18-airplanes/

Considering how cheap the MD-80 family is on the open market (of course based on the cycles it has), getting a few to strip down for parts is financially prudent.


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